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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

gunchar wrote:

Oh dear lord, that's exactly what i see GW in their limitless incompetence do in january, just to make a surprised Pikachu face after finding out why that will be around as much of a fix as the silly below half strength +1 to wound in the gakky detachment rule of Sisters(Spoiler alert: just like any halfway competent opponent will just kill or play around most of the Ultra fragile Sister units instead of leaving them below half strength which is anyways often just a very dubious buff, any halfway competent player will also never get any Ultra fragile + not particularly fast glass canon units with meltas come anywhere close to 9 inches from a valuable vehicle that will most certainly have notably more range itself anyway).

can you at least be coherent in your rant?

What part of meltas at range 9 getting the strength they anyways should have is not going to fix Sisters and GW being incompetent, is not coherent with my rant(that specifically points out that Sisters have several problems, of which damage output is just one)?

Neopytes get 2 special and 2 heavy weapons for every 10. Not 1 special and 1 heavy. Plus quake cannons are a better option for killing Sisters. But those mining lasers are better at getting tanks at range.

It’s a 60 percent chance of a free unit that can arrive and get minus 1AP. Going down to 50 percent later on. So it could in theory still duplicate itself five times.

Whilst being able to tarpit the shooty sisters unit with basically any unit in the game with a unit half its price.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Neopytes get 2 special and 2 heavy weapons for every 10. Not 1 special and 1 heavy. Plus quake cannons are a better option for killing Sisters. But those mining lasers are better at getting tanks at range.

It’s a 60 percent chance of a free unit that can arrive and get minus 1AP. Going down to 50 percent later on. So it could in theory still duplicate itself five times.

Whilst being able to tarpit the shooty sisters unit with basically any unit in the game with a unit half its price.

You're right on the doubles and it was a typo on my part, I did the maths with a seismic cannon.

So 2 grenade launchers and 2 seismic cannons in the wild assumption they're permanently stationary:

24" - 2.6 sisters killed
12" - 3.7 sisters killed

Still heavily skewed to the sisters here. That 60% chance also requires nobody to get close to the marker you broadcast for a turn iirc.

Also Neophytes are 90 points, sisters are 100, that's 10 points difference, not half.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Whilst being able to tarpit the shooty sisters unit with basically any unit in the game with a unit half its price.

Tarpitting isn't a weakness unique to sisters. It's been a vulnerability of nearly every unit since the games creation, and a weakness in basically every game ever.

Can't kill it, or don't want it to go on a rampage through my list? Either run around it or throw something at it can't efficiently deal with and proceed to ignore it until you need to throw more cheese into the mousetrap.

I don't completely agree with you, nor do I completely disagree with you, but tarpitting has and likely will continue to be a solution for most units in the game.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Looks to me more like the problem with sisters isn't so much the girls themselves

Wrong, the problems are with the girls themselves, their special rules, their leader interactions, their datasheets and their vehicles + guns, and whoever wrote that horrible Index needs to get fired asap.

 MinscS2 wrote:
but that they're restricted to (mainly) meltas and flamers, and that meltas are a bit meh atm.

Meltas are not just a bit meh but hot garbage right now, and nobody who has actual options is taking them, especially not on Ultra fragile + slow units. And that is still just one of many problems Sisters have in 10th Edition.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'd probably support a buff to meltas, but at the same time I don't want previous editions back where meltas where completely dominant and wrecked everything left right and center.

At a laughable range of 9 they would need to straight up wreck everything left right and center to even be the slightest bit viable, especially on Ultra fragile + slow units who would have still more than enough trouble to make them work even then.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Perhaps giving the [melta]-rule +1 to wound against vehicles and monsters if within half range would solve it, but it might also be too much, I can't really tell.

Please tell me you're just joking?
Giving Meltas + 1 to wound at full range against everything for only Sisters would make Sisters a Mid Tier army at best right now, giving Meltas +1 to wound against vehicles and monsters if within half range would not fix Meltas(only freaking Space Marines could even make them work then, and it's not like they even need that) and barely help Sisters at all(at best they would be a less hot contender for the worst faction in the game among the bottom right now).

In fact let’s go the other way and keep the theme up that Sisters are way off what they are:

Celestine in Gathering Storm:

Kills a Daemon Prince
Holds her own against Abaddon (the Dark Lord of the setting)
Kills a dumb number of Chaos Space Marines

Which is in line with other Living Saints such as Sabbat who you know, also kills a Daemon Prince and a load of Chaos Space Marines. Or Demonifuge fighting and killing a Great Unclean One.

So how does that character translate into the rules? The God like superhero characters who kill Daemon Princes and Greater Demons as Avatars of the God Emperor?

5 attacks 2 plus strength 6 ap-3 D2 Dev Wounds

About 3 dead marines.


Versus the Daemon Prince

Either

14 str6 ap0 D1 hitting on 2 with full rerolls

or

6 Str8 ap-2 D3 hitting on 2 plus

So it’s either 6 marines dead with the sweep or 4 with the strike

On a T10 10W 2/4 profile.

There is no way Celestine wins that fight.

Celestine has the statline of a Canoness with jump pack. There’s a complete disconnect between the lore of Living Saints like Celestine versus the rules. Some random Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord is better than an Avatar of the God Emperor. Even though the lore has things like Sabbat butchering Chaos Lords ridiculously easily or Celestine chopping off this Daemon Princes on Cadia head before facing off against Abaddon (suffice to say with those rules she ain’t winning there either).

This is clearly the “well all Sisters have to be worse than marines so we’ll give some cute little profiles to kill one or two marines a turn; but nothing too crazy as that just wouldn’t fit the rest of the army”. Being worse than 60 percent of the armies in the game shouldn’t be a defining trait. Plus, it really isn’t for Living Saints. If a random marine Chaos Lord fights Sabbat or Celestine he ain’t walking away from that fight unless you’re a named character. So again, the rules are totally at odds with the lore.

gunchar wrote:

Please tell me you're just joking?

I'm being humble here and you're coming from nowhere and being ultra-snarky. Go argue with someone else...

Dudeface wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Neopytes get 2 special and 2 heavy weapons for every 10. Not 1 special and 1 heavy. Plus quake cannons are a better option for killing Sisters. But those mining lasers are better at getting tanks at range.

It’s a 60 percent chance of a free unit that can arrive and get minus 1AP. Going down to 50 percent later on. So it could in theory still duplicate itself five times.

Whilst being able to tarpit the shooty sisters unit with basically any unit in the game with a unit half its price.

You're right on the doubles and it was a typo on my part, I did the maths with a seismic cannon.

So 2 grenade launchers and 2 seismic cannons in the wild assumption they're permanently stationary:

24" - 2.6 sisters killed
12" - 3.7 sisters killed

Still heavily skewed to the sisters here. That 60% chance also requires nobody to get close to the marker you broadcast for a turn iirc.

Also Neophytes are 90 points, sisters are 100, that's 10 points difference, not half.

Because it can come back 5 times. So it’s really a series of 18 point units that might not arrive on the battlefield.

 MinscS2 wrote:

gunchar wrote:

Please tell me you're just joking?

I'm being humble here and you're coming from nowhere and being ultra-snarky. Go argue with someone else...

Bruh..., you talked about making a weapon that don't works at all right now just slightly better, and then honestly claimed that might be too much in context of one of the worst armies in the game right now(except someone somehow pulls an after months still unknown Sisters super-combo out of nowhere). I admit that my reply was maybe a bit too snarky(cause i'm really tired of all the gaslighting regarding Sisters here since their already just bad 10th Edition preview), but you were definitely not being humble but just pretty damn ignorant instead.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Regular battle sisters probably should have 2 attacks with their close combat weapons tbh (but remain WS4+), as this would put them on par with other human elite-units like Kasrkins and Scions who have 2 WS4+ S3 attacks each in combat.

Speaking about Kasrkins (100 pts for 10) and Scions (110 pts for 10), battle sisters look pretty alright @ 100 pts per squad compared to those two;

Both are WS4+ and BS3+.
S4 AP- (Bolters) vs S3 AP1 (H.S Lasguns)
Sisters can have 1 special + 1 heavy.
Scions/Kasrkin can have 2+2 specials.

And then while Scions/Kasrkin have a 4+ save and OC1, sisters have a 3+/6++ save and OC2.

(As for special rules, I'd all 3 units have pretty decent rules. Sisters probably the worst but again, they have a big edge in save and OC.)

So by all means, buff sisters, but don't forget to buff every similar unit in that case. Suddenly if Kasrkin and Sisters are down to 8-9 ppm, isn't it about time we buffed GEQ's too? Is a GEQ really worth 6-6,5 ppm when a Kasrkin/Sister is a mere point or two more expensive but twice as good?

Hopefully you see where I'm going with this. There is a diminishing return at one point where a model with a certain save and loadout can't get cheaper, even if there are more *expensive* models in the game who perhaps are slightly more points-efficient.

Looks to me more like the problem with sisters isn't so much the girls themselves, but that they're restricted to (mainly) meltas and flamers, and that meltas are a bit meh atm. I'd probably support a buff to meltas, but at the same time I don't want previous editions back where meltas where completely dominant and wrecked everything left right and center. Perhaps giving the [melta]-rule +1 to wound against vehicles and monsters if within half range would solve it, but it might also be too much, I can't really tell.

I agree that the stat line for sisters should be compared to Karksans and Scions, which are literally the "elite of humanity" and not to space marines which are supposed to be quite literally super human Sisters of Battle are NOT FEMALE SPACE MARINES after all, .Also giving Battle sisters 2 attacks seems more like a trap then anything, not sure that it'd have much impact

I also agree that a BIIIG part of the problem with sisters is largely that Melta SUCKS right now.

If Melta was better (and honestly I can't imagine it won't eventually get buffed this edition) it'd go a loong way to making sisters more viable

Sisters of Battle are superhuman though. Characters like Celestine and Demonifuge being the extreme examples of that. They’re like Stormcast, they’re being given powers by a God; just usually to a lesser extent. Scions and Kasrkin are just SAS in space.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Neopytes get 2 special and 2 heavy weapons for every 10. Not 1 special and 1 heavy. Plus quake cannons are a better option for killing Sisters. But those mining lasers are better at getting tanks at range.

It’s a 60 percent chance of a free unit that can arrive and get minus 1AP. Going down to 50 percent later on. So it could in theory still duplicate itself five times.

Whilst being able to tarpit the shooty sisters unit with basically any unit in the game with a unit half its price.

You're right on the doubles and it was a typo on my part, I did the maths with a seismic cannon.

So 2 grenade launchers and 2 seismic cannons in the wild assumption they're permanently stationary:

24" - 2.6 sisters killed
12" - 3.7 sisters killed

Still heavily skewed to the sisters here. That 60% chance also requires nobody to get close to the marker you broadcast for a turn iirc.

Also Neophytes are 90 points, sisters are 100, that's 10 points difference, not half.

Because it can come back 5 times. So it’s really a series of 18 point units that might not arrive on the battlefield.

That's not how this works and I think you know that.

The potential opportunity cost of a unit respawning isn't something that just makes the cost of a unit and its potential divisible by 5.

I understand your frustrations, but you're just hell bent on "make my army better", using narrative fluff from novels and comic book style showdowns as justification. Its good you care so much about your faction, but it feels like it's blinding you to the bigger picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Sisters of Battle are superhuman though. Characters like Celestine and Demonifuge being the extreme examples of that. They’re like Stormcast, they’re being given powers by a God; just usually to a lesser extent. Scions and Kasrkin are just SAS in space.

No, they are not. They get the occasional divine intervention through faith.

Two unique characters does not make the army superhuman. The average Sister of Battle is just a really well-trained human with excellent equipment and extraordinarily fanatic devotion to the God-Emperor of Mankind. They cannot consciously call on Faith to have a specific impact in the world around them like Celestine or the Daemonifuge can do. Things just happen at random.

BrianDavion wrote:

I agree that the stat line for sisters should be compared to Karksans and Scions, which are literally the "elite of humanity" and not to space marines which are supposed to be quite literally super human Sisters of Battle are NOT FEMALE SPACE MARINES after all

Sisters of Battles are also NOT JUST REGULAR ELITE SOLDIERS, cause those have neither Super-Armor nor straight up Faith magic, also their heroes operate barring complete outliers like Sly Marbo far below the ridiculous lvl of named Sisters let alone outliers like Ephrael Stern, and that is not even going into Celestine who according to lore should eat even whole Space Marines Squads casually for breakfast like Totalwar1402 already rightfully pointed out. And btw one of the most popular arguments against female Space Marines was usually the existence of Sisters of Battle...

BrianDavion wrote:
Also giving Battle sisters 2 attacks seems more like a trap then anything, not sure that it'd have much impact

I also agree that a BIIIG part of the problem with sisters is largely that Melta SUCKS right now.

If Melta was better (and honestly I can't imagine it won't eventually get buffed this edition) it'd go a loong way to making sisters more viable

Both of those buffs would be traps then, cause neither can even nearly fix Sisters on their own, although you are right about an actually fixed melta having a notably bigger impact.

Dudeface wrote:

No, they are not. They get the occasional divine intervention through faith.

 alextroy wrote:
Two unique characters does not make the army superhuman. The average Sister of Battle is just a really well-trained human with excellent equipment and extraordinarily fanatic devotion to the God-Emperor of Mankind. They cannot consciously call on Faith to have a specific impact in the world around them like Celestine or the Daemonifuge can do. Things just happen at random.

That's just nonsense, the best trained male peak human soldier in the real world would straight up not even survive the training of the Novitiate, what Sisters do goes well into the realm of comicbook peak humans(aka real world superhumans, even for men let alone for women) + added Super-Armor and Faith Magic(which was on countless occasions shown to be far less random than you claim), what named Sisters do is even by that standard outright superhuman, Ephrael Stern is blatantly an all around superhuman who would make even Spider-Man proud in some regards and that is before we're even talking about her ridiculous magical abilities, and Celestines stats are utterly laughable if we're even remotely going by the lore(cause she should be clearly closer to a Primarch than to even High-End Space Marines, but has partly regular Sister stats below even freaking Scouts).

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Sisters of Battle are superhuman though. Characters like Celestine and Demonifuge being the extreme examples of that. They’re like Stormcast, they’re being given powers by a God; just usually to a lesser extent. Scions and Kasrkin are just SAS in space.

st.celestine and stern are NOT TYPICAL sisters of battle.

Sisters of Battle are on the whole not super human. they're normal humans with INTENSE faith, and that faith sometimes manifests in miraculious results. In an edition with more psyker powers Mircle dice would IMHO be something that could be sacrificed for "mircles" that would be a bit akin to psyker powers with every SOB squad being capable of being the "caster"
but 10th edition has basicly neutered psykers into the ground

Claiming that sisters are superhuman and using Celestine as an argument is like saying that space marines aren't superhuman enough and then using primarchs as an argument.

Celestine is your typhical sister just as much as Guilliman is your typhical space marine.

Nothing I have read depicts the average Sister of Battle as superhuman. In fact, they are all too human outside of their faith. They do have some of the best equipment in the galaxy and top notch military training having been drawn from the Schola Progenium, just like Scions and Commissars, for the prime trait of exceptional faith.

So while I will agree that if you compare them to Scions and Kasrkin, they should definitely have 2 attacks with their Close Combat Weapon like those squads, that isn't the problem. The problem is at best lackluster anti-tank capability (S9 Melta is not great when most tanks are T10+) and horrible leader rules. So many characters, but you can only attach one to a squad unless it is a Battle Sister Squad. Inability to place the re-roll granting Cannoness with any squad of consequence. The list goes on.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
In fact let’s go the other way and keep the theme up that Sisters are way off what they are:

Celestine in Gathering Storm:

Kills a Daemon Prince
Holds her own against Abaddon (the Dark Lord of the setting)
Kills a dumb number of Chaos Space Marines

Which is in line with other Living Saints such as Sabbat who you know, also kills a Daemon Prince and a load of Chaos Space Marines. Or Demonifuge fighting and killing a Great Unclean One.

So how does that character translate into the rules? The God like superhero characters who kill Daemon Princes and Greater Demons as Avatars of the God Emperor?

5 attacks 2 plus strength 6 ap-3 D2 Dev Wounds

About 3 dead marines.


Versus the Daemon Prince

Either

14 str6 ap0 D1 hitting on 2 with full rerolls

or

6 Str8 ap-2 D3 hitting on 2 plus

So it’s either 6 marines dead with the sweep or 4 with the strike

On a T10 10W 2/4 profile.

There is no way Celestine wins that fight.

Celestine has the statline of a Canoness with jump pack. There’s a complete disconnect between the lore of Living Saints like Celestine versus the rules. Some random Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord is better than an Avatar of the God Emperor. Even though the lore has things like Sabbat butchering Chaos Lords ridiculously easily or Celestine chopping off this Daemon Princes on Cadia head before facing off against Abaddon (suffice to say with those rules she ain’t winning there either).

This is clearly the “well all Sisters have to be worse than marines so we’ll give some cute little profiles to kill one or two marines a turn; but nothing too crazy as that just wouldn’t fit the rest of the army”. Being worse than 60 percent of the armies in the game shouldn’t be a defining trait. Plus, it really isn’t for Living Saints. If a random marine Chaos Lord fights Sabbat or Celestine he ain’t walking away from that fight unless you’re a named character. So again, the rules are totally at odds with the lore.

Your math is wrong.

14 attacks at S6, 2+ to-hit, and rerolling hits and wounds is two dead MEQ.
6 attacks at S8 AP-2 D3, 2+ to-hit, kills just shy of three MEQ.

Celestine still ain’t winning that fight, much less standing up to Abaddon.

She has to get the perfect roll to one shot that Demon Prince whilst it can reliably kill her in a single round. She can only chip away at it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Celestine still ain’t winning that fight, much less standing up to Abaddon.

She has to get the perfect roll to one shot that Demon Prince whilst it can reliably kill her in a single round. She can only chip away at it.

Celestine is 135 pts.
Daemon Princes are around 200 pts give or take, so roughly 50% more expensive.

Isn't it a good thing that she doesn't easily win against something that costs 50% more than her?

 alextroy wrote:
Nothing I have read depicts the average Sister of Battle as superhuman.] In fact, they are all too human outside of their faith They do have some of the best equipment in the galaxy and top notch military training having been drawn from the Schola Progenium, just like Scions and Commissars, for the prime trait of exceptional faith.

So while I will agree that if you compare them to Scions and Kasrkin, they should definitely have 2 attacks with their Close Combat Weapon like those squads, that isn't the problem. The problem is at best lackluster anti-tank capability (S9 Melta is not great when most tanks are T10+) and horrible leader rules. So many characters, but you can only attach one to a squad unless it is a Battle Sister Squad. Inability to place the re-roll granting Cannoness with any squad of consequence. The list goes on.

and many of their characters can only attach to a battle sister squad and maybe one other type of squad. :(

Sisters didn't have many characters until fairly recently too IIRC so that kinda hampered em.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Celestine still ain’t winning that fight, much less standing up to Abaddon.

She has to get the perfect roll to one shot that Demon Prince whilst it can reliably kill her in a single round. She can only chip away at it.

Posting objectively wrong math doesn’t help your case.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Celestine still ain’t winning that fight, much less standing up to Abaddon.

She has to get the perfect roll to one shot that Demon Prince whilst it can reliably kill her in a single round. She can only chip away at it.

Posting objectively wrong math doesn’t help your case.

can math be SUBJECTIVELY wrong?

Arguably when you start getting into relativity and quantum physics as frames of reference and observer effects become very relevant.

BrianDavion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Celestine still ain’t winning that fight, much less standing up to Abaddon.

She has to get the perfect roll to one shot that Demon Prince whilst it can reliably kill her in a single round. She can only chip away at it.

Posting objectively wrong math doesn’t help your case.

can math be SUBJECTIVELY wrong?

You can post math that is correct, but who’s foundations are shoddy.

Like, let’s say you assume a Guard squad is within 6” of an enemy tank (for the Melta bonus) but is also stationary for the Lascannon heavy bonus.
The assumptions present are shoddy, no matter how accurate the math of the calculations are.

Lot of frothing at the mouth posters in here saying "they're just like Scions but in powered armour" but I'm not sure the fluff really supports that.

I do agree they should be inferior to Marines man to woman on average. Making them WS3+ and 2A doesn't change that. Hell adding the extra wound on top of that wouldn't change that.

Sisters regularly get into close quarters engagements at rates beyond the Scions. When we see the Scions fight they drop down and stop blasting. As seen in the ninth edition cinematic Sisters are much more prone to throwing down and acquit themselves well (too well tbh but so did the Space Marines Scorpehks should not be that easy to kill but oh well the Imperium gets plot armour).

Making them WS3+ and 2A wouldn't be out of line in the fluff nor on the tabletop. And anyone who thinks "buffing melta" in this edition would be enough to fix Sisters is completely delusional frankly. Not worth talking to.

BrianDavion wrote:
Oddly I'm gonna agree with Karol here, the problem with Sisters isn't their base stat line, it's that their special rules SUCK

I don't think their base statline needs to change, but their weapon statlines do. More attacks on the melee weapons. A couple more units to fill in the holes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Lot of frothing at the mouth posters in here saying "they're just like Scions but in powered armour" but I'm not sure the fluff really supports that.

I do agree they should be inferior to Marines man to woman on average. Making them WS3+ and 2A doesn't change that. Hell adding the extra wound on top of that wouldn't change that.

Sisters regularly get into close quarters engagements at rates beyond the Scions. When we see the Scions fight they drop down and stop blasting. As seen in the ninth edition cinematic Sisters are much more prone to throwing down and acquit themselves well (too well tbh but so did the Space Marines Scorpehks should not be that easy to kill but oh well the Imperium gets plot armour).

Making them WS3+ and 2A wouldn't be out of line in the fluff nor on the tabletop. And anyone who thinks "buffing melta" in this edition would be enough to fix Sisters is completely delusional frankly. Not worth talking to.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sisters_of_Battle

Equipped and trained to the highest Imperial standards

Same as storm Troopers

While the armour does not contain those auxiliary functions that require the gene-enhanced physiology of Astartes

Because they're just humans

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas#google_vignette

The Sisters of Battle are trained to the peak of human ability and stand amongst Mankind's most dedicated and disciplined warriors.

Again, top end human training ala stormtroopers

The intense, unquestioning nature of this faith is a potent weapon indeed, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Sororitas to unprecedented feats of martial prowess.

Sisters of Battle gripped with holy fervour banish worldly fears from their minds, shrug off mortal wounds, and summon preternatural strength to smite their foes.

This highlights that they're so robust of faith that their mental state allows them to accomplish beyond what most normal people will. Note, this isn't super human in all cases, some are miracles, some are faith leading to actions that push the human body.

I won't copy the full induction process, but they're human, no implants, no latent super powers, just hard-ass ladies with a lack of self preservation and a belief in a higher power.

This whole thread is "my Sisters aren't female space marines that shrug off wounds at every turn and melt heretics with their magic powers" to dramatacise the issue.

The grounded suggestions of an extra attack or better ws on Battle Sisters, or melta changes are all good valid suggestions. So are criticisms of the army rules. But the weird trip about how they're superhuman is just off base completely.

Regarding the "in novel XY" argument: there always is a certain limit in how well fluff can be transformed into tabletop rules before it gets ridiculous.
It's the same "problem" I see with people complaining that Marines have problems to single handedly wipe out whole Guardsmen squads on the tabletop when they can in the fluff: That would be possible if on the contrary the "horde factions" would get the numerical superiority they would have in the fluff. And that would (in my opinion) require dialing the regeneration mechanics of Guard, Genestealers and Nids up even more or adjust prices in a way that the elite factions have extremely small numbers on the board.

In other words: if you argue that sisters should have drastical advantages over Guardsmen/Gaunts/whatever the lowliest Stealer guys are called because "the novels say so" I as Guardplayer could argue that I want off the board artillery strikes from friendly regiments a mile away because "the fluff says so". Or that prices should be adjusted to reflect that the regiments of Hive worlds like Cadia likely have more tanks than there are space marines in the galaxy. But I think that won't be fun.

But that is just my opinion on the fluff argument

____________________________________________


Back on track: I too think buffing SoBs to two attacks, WS3+ would be fitting. But I'm not sure that would really solve the problem mentioned. I mean: looking at lets say 20 Infantry squad dudes (110 if I'm not mistaken) against 10 battle sisters. If they get into melee they would still only kill something in the ball park of (21 attacks * 2/3 (WS) *1/2 (wounding step) *2/3 (armor save)) ~ 5 Guardsmen a fight phase, needing multiple rounds to remove that squad - only for it to be regenerated. So it still wouldn't be enough to avoid beeing tar pitted.
But of couse: it would be a good start.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
In fact let’s go the other way and keep the theme up that Sisters are way off what they are:

Celestine in Gathering Storm:

Kills a Daemon Prince
Holds her own against Abaddon (the Dark Lord of the setting)
Kills a dumb number of Chaos Space Marines

Which is in line with other Living Saints such as Sabbat who you know, also kills a Daemon Prince and a load of Chaos Space Marines. Or Demonifuge fighting and killing a Great Unclean One.

So how does that character translate into the rules? The God like superhero characters who kill Daemon Princes and Greater Demons as Avatars of the God Emperor?

5 attacks 2 plus strength 6 ap-3 D2 Dev Wounds

About 3 dead marines.


Versus the Daemon Prince

Either

14 str6 ap0 D1 hitting on 2 with full rerolls

or

6 Str8 ap-2 D3 hitting on 2 plus

So it’s either 6 marines dead with the sweep or 4 with the strike

On a T10 10W 2/4 profile.

There is no way Celestine wins that fight.

Celestine has the statline of a Canoness with jump pack. There’s a complete disconnect between the lore of Living Saints like Celestine versus the rules. Some random Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord is better than an Avatar of the God Emperor. Even though the lore has things like Sabbat butchering Chaos Lords ridiculously easily or Celestine chopping off this Daemon Princes on Cadia head before facing off against Abaddon (suffice to say with those rules she ain’t winning there either).

This is clearly the “well all Sisters have to be worse than marines so we’ll give some cute little profiles to kill one or two marines a turn; but nothing too crazy as that just wouldn’t fit the rest of the army”. Being worse than 60 percent of the armies in the game shouldn’t be a defining trait. Plus, it really isn’t for Living Saints. If a random marine Chaos Lord fights Sabbat or Celestine he ain’t walking away from that fight unless you’re a named character. So again, the rules are totally at odds with the lore.

Every edition she loses another attack and another wound.