Why Sisters of Battle should get a stat increase

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**Totalwar1402**

Tyran wrote:
Acolytes are not mutants, but Genestealer hybrids. They are a mid point bewteen a human and a Generstealer, and Genestealers are defined by having a tons of attacks with great WS and AP.

A normal human getting into a melee fight with a Genestealer Hybrid should get torn apart.

I do believe Sisters should be hitting in 3+ to represent their very elite training. But they are also just human.

There’s nothing normal about them. They’re wearing power armour and meant to be a quasi supernatural fighter; no. The 9th Ed trailer has one generic Sister kill four Necron Warriors and behead one of those Destroyers. Of course they should kill the random grocery store mutants and they are not the only ostensibly canon fodder unit to get tons of attacks and better WS because reasons.

Then why do other Sisters units have better WS and Attacks if being just human is the justification?

Technically they do get to hit on 3 plus in CC once they lose a model. I am just saying cut the middle man out and put the sacred rites on the attack profile like the gave marines all their stuff.

**Tyran**

Totalwar1402 wrote:

There’s nothing normal about them. They’re wearing power armour and meant to be a quasi supernatural fighter; no. The 9th Ed trailer has one generic Sister kill four Necron Warriors and behead one of those Destroyers. Of course they should kill the random grocery store mutants and they are not the only ostensibly canon fodder unit to get tons of attacks and better WS because reasons.

Then why do other Sisters units have better WS and Attacks if being just human is the justification?

Technically they do get to hit on 3 plus in CC once they lose a model. I am just saying cut the middle man out and put the sacred rites on the attack profile like the gave marines all their stuff.

She kills 4 Necron Warriors with her bolter and beheads the Destroyer with a power sword (suggesting she isn't quite as generic as generic Sister but rather a Sister Superior).

What is not normal about them is their equipment and armor, but the human underneath is still just human. Lore wise a Sister will kill Acolytes at range, but she doesn't want to be in melee with one unless she has a dedicated melee weapon (and even then she is risking it).

As Vladimir noted, they should get an improvement to their gear, not their physical stats.

**Karol**

PenitentJake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

SOBs have simply weaker rules then the eldar fate dice ability, requiring them to lose 2 units a turn just to generate an amount of mircle dice on par.

Just a reminder- Cherubs are a 2 for one deal, restoring an MD that you've used; Simulacra allow you to generate an MD for every unit you destroy, and you gain an MD on each of your turns for every objective controlled by a BSS.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post- fate dice ARE better, especially on turn 1 and even turn 2. But no, you don't have to die to generate twelve MD.

I was happy to see most Sisters units get cheaper with the data slate, but more could be done. A melta bump is what I'd like to see- especially since we know it can be done in a way that won't affect other armies.

Melta should either be str 12 at half range or be anti tank/anti monster +4. At str 8 it is just a horribly bad anti tank weapon. It would require for the units that use it to have an option to change the melta wounds in to DW.

When I look at the eldar changes and SoB changes I just have a laugh. It is as if someone at GW told the DT, "okey peeps make them 65% win rate, then it is all going to be okey, 70% is a bit much" How are sisters going to deal with something like orks or necron, planting a bucket of models on objectives and ask to be shifted, with t5 or more and/or resurection of models. In order to dent something like this a basic squad of sisters would have to carry like 4+ flamers each, on top of their other weapons.

**Tyran**

I really prefer the extra strenght at half range. Melta should be scary at close range but not at full range.

**Karol**

it can be "anti" at half range only too. In the end it doesn't matter, I think, what is important is that a melta based army doesn't work this edition.

And while sisters could be succesful, as almost any other army in history of w40k, if they were dropped in points enough, The problem is with the enough part. They would really have to drop to something really low, like 6-7 pts per foot infantry model.

**Pyroalchi**

Regarding the Meltas I have a bit of the impression that someone in the design team thought "Hey, Marines and Guard have Meltas and Lascannons as Anti-Tank weapons, what can we do to make both choices worthwhile? I know! Lets make Meltas anti heavy infantry/skimmer/light vehicle and Lascannons anti tank!" and then completely forgot about SoB only having Meltas for anti tank.

If they flat out get more Strength or Anti vehicle Lascannons will fall out of favor again (which I as Guard player would find sad). But I don't see why Meltas should not work better in Sisters hands. So maybe limit that strength boost to our faithfull girls? Because... really believing in him on earth makes them cook hotter?

**Tyran**

Alternatively they could also soft fix that by improving the Faith Dice. After all wounding on 5+ doesn't really matter if you can force 5 and 6s from the pool.

**ThePaintingOwl**

Karol wrote:
They would really have to drop to something really low, like 6-7 pts per foot infantry model.

Lol no. Basic guardsmen are 6.5ppm, bringing SoB down to that level would be absurdly overpowered.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyroalchi wrote:
Regarding the Meltas I have a bit of the impression that someone in the design team thought "Hey, Marines and Guard have Meltas and Lascannons as Anti-Tank weapons, what can we do to make both choices worthwhile? I know! Lets make Meltas anti heavy infantry/skimmer/light vehicle and Lascannons anti tank!" and then completely forgot about SoB only having Meltas for anti tank.

That may have been the thought process but it doesn't make any sense. Melta isn't meaningfully better than lascannons at killing light vehicles or heavy infantry, it's just a bad weapon. In any case where I could take a melta gun I'd rather take a lascannon no matter what I'm expecting to face.

**Void__Dragon**

I kind of get the resistance towards Sisters being 2W (I wouldn't personally mind it's whatever) but the resistance towards them being WS3+ and 2A is really weird and stupid.

There is no particular reason why ten Sisters should be tar-pitted all game by ten guardsmen in melee.

Even with the proposed changes they still only kill four guardsmen a turn so they are hardly mulching hordes, but it makes them somewhat less useless except as a tax to get more Miracle Dice.

Which is what they are right now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JNAProductions wrote:
You're also not bringing Sisters of Battle for their melee.
A Crusader Squad with Chainswords does not have any Boltguns, making their shooting significantly worse.

What are you taking Sisters of Battle for then? Because it surely isn't their shooting or staying power either.

**RaptorusRex**

Yeah, thinking it over, buff meltas.

**alextroy**

Totalwar1402 wrote:

Spoiler:

Per the new munitorium update

10 Sisters of Battle - 100 points
9 Black Templar initiates and a Sword Brethren - 125 points
10 Intercessors - 170 points

A Sister of Battle is a 1 wound T3 model with 1 strength 3 attack. That hits on a 4.

A Black Templar Initiate has two wounds, is T4 with 5 strength 4 ap-1 attacks. That hit on a 3.

Yet there’s apparently a 2 point difference here per model. Yeah, if they all had meltaguns and devastating hits maybe I guess; but they don’t. Like this is the right hand not talking to the left hand here.

So either the marine squad should be 4 times more expensive to reflect the actual value of the squad and not say “well ten guys should be around 120 points because that’s what an Exocrine costs (which it shouldn’t BTW)” or, you know, maybe Sisters should get a profile increase because it’s not third edition anymore.

The rules are there to sell you on the fantasy of the faction. I mean, the above example just outright isn’t fair even if this was chess. But in the trailers, books etc etc this is meant to be a larger than life faction filled with Joan of Arc style saints in power armour. If a squad of Sisters of Battle ran into some Genestealer cultists they should absolutely massacre them. One of the best equipped fighting forces and where its characters such as in Dawn of Fire are shown keeping pace and fighting with Space Marines. Currently, the rules are forcing you to pay marine points for units where they have half the wounds and a fifth of the attacks. That’s dumb.

Basically let’s compare a marine in 3rd edition to a 3rd edition Sister of Battle

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 A1 W1 LD8 SV3

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1 W1 LD8 SV3

So, the Sister does what the marine does shooting wise but is a tier less durable and is a step down in close combat. With the Sister being about 2/3 the value of a tactical marine.

Since then marine got two extra attacks and an extra wound. They also got better guns and close combat weapons with AP and additional rules when before they had the same gear; because reasons. This was done so that people felt like marines were an elite army and to make them more durable without changing strength and toughness. Purely a gameplay mechanic to sell you on the fantasy of the faction. Marines just didn’t feel like marines with 1 wound and 1 attack due to how damage was going up.

So, Sisters of Battle should have their profile increased in line with this. Probably something like

WS3plus BS3 plus S3 T3 A2 W2 SV3 plus

This changes WS, attacks and wounds. This reflects that Sisters of Battle are wearing power armour, meant to be dangerous and makes them durable without changing their strength or toughness which are the main distinctions of marines. They also still have less attacks than a Space Marine and Celestians did have two attacks until the unit was cut. As for weapon skill, 4 plus to hit in melee does not reflect a competent fighter. Genestealer Acolyes hit on 3 as do various other trash units. It simply means that they can do decent in close combat and bully trash units in close combat. Which they should be able to do in the lore.

I much prefer that to slapping a ton of additional rules to give them more damage. Let’s give them all devastating hits and call it sacred rites. Giving them back armour of contempt. No, the statline needs to change and even then those points are still wildly out of line. The above profile is not worth a hundred points if Black Templar squads are 125 and maybe it’s a bit more in line with the Intercessors.

Didn't we have this thread a few months back? Regardless of that, this analysis is laughably bad, comparing widely different units based on isolated traits and then arguing for a buff. Let's look at it in their totality:

Battle Sister Squad (100 points for Sister Superior and 9 Battle Sisters):

10 Models with T 3, W 1, Sv 3+/6++

Bad Melee capability (1 A, WS 4+, S 3) with a Power Weapon boost on 1 model

7 Boltguns (Rapid Fire 1, A 1, BS 3+, S 4); 1 Special Weapon (Meltagun); 1 Heavy Weapon (Multi-Melta); 1 Superior gun (Combi-Weapon)

Cherub for free extra Miracle Dice after you use one

Defenders of the Faith for extra Miracle Dice for sitting on Objectives (aka doing your job as a Battleline unit)

Simulacrum Imperialis for extra Miracle Dice if this unit destroys a unit

Intercessor Squad (85 points for Intercessor Sgt and 4 Intercessors):

5 Models with T 4, W 2, Sv 3+

Moderate Melee capability (3 A, WS 3+, S 4) with a Powerfist boost on 1 model

5 Bolt Rifles (Assault, Heavy, A 2, BS 3+, S 4, AP -1); 1 Astartes Grenade Launcher

Objective Secured for sticky objectives

Crusader Squad (125 points for Sword Brethren and 9 Initiates with Chainsword):

10 Models with T 4, W 2, Sv 3+

Good Melee capability (3 A, WS 3+, S 4, AP -1) with a Powerfist boost on 1 model

9 Bolt Pistols and a Plasma Pistol

Re-roll Charge and Advance Rolls

Battle Sisters have the worst close combat. Not surprising from a unit that has only been better in close combat than an Imperial Guard Infantry Squad during the days of Order of the Bloody Rose detachment abilities. They are better than Intercessors at shooting due to having 10 models and both a Special Weapon, a Heavy Weapon, and the option for a squad leader weapon upgrade. They are vastly better at shooting than the Crusader Squad, having more than double the firepower and twice the range on most weapons. They are roughly even on resilience to Intercessors with both units have 10 wounds. However the Intercessors having 2 Wound models die much faster to any weapon with D2 or higher. Crusaders are twice a tough as the Sisters, but are both 25% more expensive and have much less reach on the battlefield being armed with pistols and Chainswords.

Intercessors are 15% cheaper than Battle Sisters and have nearly 150% the close combat ability. However, they have less ranged firepower, much less within 12", except at extreme range (greater than 18" and within 24"). Intercessors have a useful ability, but it has much less impact than the three abilities possessed by a Battle Sister Squad. Compared to the Crusader Squad, the Intercessors are only 68% of the points. This makes their lower close combat strength against a melee squad unsurprising. However, they have more than the ranged firepower of the pistol-armed Crusaders within 12" and vastly more firepower beyond 12".

So really, I don't see much problem here. It would be nice if Battle Sisters had 2 attacks per model, but adding more S 3 AP 0 attacks isn't really going to do much in a fight except against weak combatants anyway. Add that Sisters have Pistols to give them a bit more close combat effectiveness in prolonged combats and it becomes nice, but not necessary. The only question I see is should Battle Sisters really be 100 points or should it be a bit cheaper like 95 or 90 points? Or maybe the Astartes units should go up 5 to 10 points? Either way, we are looking pretty close to a reasonably unit to unit comparison.

**Totalwar1402**

You’re saying for 25 points you wouldn’t triple your attacks, double your wounds etc etc

Marines are stupidly undercoated. If an Exocrine with D2 can kill them well that goes up in points. Doubling your toughness against D1 guns or close combat is not a trivial bonus.

Three attacks and 2 wounds is a character profile. Every marine should be 20 to 30 points.

I don’t hear these objections to stat increases on Death Guard, Votaan and Mechanicum. Marines did perfectly fine at 1W 1A for decades and nobody claimed that was a poor representation of what marines should be.

If you insist on dropping Sisters point only then it’s a 50 point squad not 95. Like that’s keeping them overcosted.

**Breton**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:

I think I'd rather see a stat increase. A small one. Maybve give them two attacks, give them Assault Sisters with 3-4. I'd like to see Sisters be Guard Marines. Have them be similar unit types with Guardsman stats and close to guardsman points - the trade off is they don't get the big or plentiful guard armor - especially the Super Heavies. I think taking a little from both would give them a decent niche.

arent repentia the "assault sisters"?

Not really - they're not Bolt Pistol Chain Sword. They're big slow special Chain Sword.

**Dudeface**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
You’re saying for 25 points you wouldn’t triple your attacks, double your wounds etc etc

Marines are stupidly undercoated. If an Exocrine with D2 can kill them well that goes up in points. Doubling your toughness against D1 guns or close combat is not a trivial bonus.

Three attacks and 2 wounds is a character profile. Every marine should be 20 to 30 points.

I don’t hear these objections to stat increases on Death Guard, Votaan and Mechanicum. Marines did perfectly fine at 1W 1A for decades and nobody claimed that was a poor representation of what marines should be.

If you insist on dropping Sisters point only then it’s a 50 point squad not 95. Like that’s keeping them overcosted.

I think you'll find there's been plenty of historic talk about the humble tac marine being less than great for a long time. They've not been relevant for anything other as a weapons caddy for multiple editions in reality. They're not taken at what you consider criminally undercosted values now even.

I feel you're being entirely emotional is your perspective and not able to detach and take a holistic view.

Yes sisters aren't great atm, no it isn't the marines fault and no they don't need to have their points halved or stats doubled.

**VladimirHerzog**

Totalwar1402 wrote:

There’s nothing normal about them. They’re wearing power armour and meant to be a quasi supernatural fighter; no. The 9th Ed trailer has one generic Sister kill four Necron Warriors and behead one of those Destroyers. Of course they should kill the random grocery store mutants and they are not the only ostensibly canon fodder unit to get tons of attacks and better WS because reasons.

Basing the in-game stats on the representation of models in animations/books/videogames is the worst way to balance a unit. Of course units are gonna look OP and badass, and just because Sister Jane Doe managed to do that once doesn't mean every sister has the same power.

Do sisters need a buff? Absolutely, but letting them kill skorpek destroyers isnt the way to do it.

Just fix melta and make it :

[MELTA X]: Increase the Strength and Damage by ‘x’ when
targeting units within half range.

**Lord Damocles**

The Sister in the trailer manages to pray away molecular disintegration.
I'm not sure that we should be looking at her as a baseline...

**Hellebore**

Gw seem to be insistent on keeping data cards unchanged, keeping stats as is.

So you are more likely to see rules change or points costs than anything else.

**VladimirHerzog**

Hellebore wrote:
Gw seem to be insistent on keeping data cards unchanged, keeping stats as is.

So you are more likely to see rules change or points costs than anything else.

they changed the Dev Wounds USR, they could change the melta USR too

**leopard**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:

There’s nothing normal about them. They’re wearing power armour and meant to be a quasi supernatural fighter; no. The 9th Ed trailer has one generic Sister kill four Necron Warriors and behead one of those Destroyers. Of course they should kill the random grocery store mutants and they are not the only ostensibly canon fodder unit to get tons of attacks and better WS because reasons.

Basing the in-game stats on the representation of models in animations/books/videogames is the worst way to balance a unit. Of course units are gonna look OP and badass, and just because Sister Jane Doe managed to do that once doesn't mean every sister has the same power.

Do sisters need a buff? Absolutely, but letting them kill skorpek destroyers isnt the way to do it.

Just fix melta and make it :

[MELTA X]: Increase the Strength and Damage by ‘x’ when
targeting units within half range.

this gets my vote, nice and simple, and goes for any weapon with the melta tag, like the T'au fusion weapons that are largely ineffective at the one job they has as well presently

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Gw seem to be insistent on keeping data cards unchanged, keeping stats as is.

So you are more likely to see rules change or points costs than anything else.

they changed the Dev Wounds USR, they could change the melta USR too

especially since the function of the USR are not on the cards, just the keyword, indeed one of the main advantages of such is the ability to update text in a single place

**MinscS2**

Lord Damocles wrote:
The Sister in the trailer manages to pray away molecular disintegration.
I'm not sure that we should be looking at her as a baseline...

Thats the 6++ at work.

**tneva82**

Hard to take seriously guy that thinks 10 pa marines easily one shotted should cost over 400 pts.

Rookie who thinks extra wound means double durability

**Tyran**

It does mean extra durability, kinda, depends on the weapon.

Marines having 2 wounds is part of the reason 1D weapons are mostly unused, because they are very bad against Marines that have excellent durability against small arms.

If you were to limit the game to only battleline units, Marines would be kinda broken.

But the game isn't limited in such way and everyone is running with heavy bolters and heavier weapons, and thus the extra durability from the extra wound is mostly negated by the meta.

**gunchar**

Oh nice the gaslighting continues, and this time even freaking Art of War(who traditionally overrate Sisters and go by the theoretical peak perfomance of a faction) believe that Sisters will be straight up the worst faction in the game after the "balance" dataslate XD...

BrianDavion wrote:
Oddly I'm gonna agree with Karol here, the problem with Sisters isn't their base stat line, it's that their special rules SUCK

No, the problems with Sisters are that their base stat line sucks, that their special rules suck, that most of their datasheets outside of cheap trash units(who often aren't even Sisters) suck, that their Leader interactions(which are additionally like other parts of their Index just straight up schizophrenic) suck and that they have no damage output of note without allied Knights.

Also even in 9th Edition Nephalim, it needed straight up unfair Secondaries to make Sisters with layers over layers over layers of special rules(including Armor of Contempt and the only viable Order Bloody Rose) actually meta-relevant, so to trust such highly incompetent people like GW's rules team to write an army that relies on layers over layers of complex rules interactions is just a recipe to disaster, and simply giving Sisters at least halfway decent base stat lines is a much easier core fix(and anyways wouldn't even be nearly enough but at least a start right now).

Void__Dragon wrote:
I kind of get the resistance towards Sisters being 2W (I wouldn't personally mind it's whatever) but the resistance towards them being WS3+ and 2A is really weird and stupid.

There is no particular reason why ten Sisters should be tar-pitted all game by ten guardsmen in melee.

Even with the proposed changes they still only kill four guardsmen a turn so they are hardly mulching hordes, but it makes them somewhat less useless except as a tax to get more Miracle Dice.

Which is what they are right now.

It's all just based on this silly notion that they're just "humans", while normal Sisters are actually comicbook peak humans(and named Sisters even by that metric straight up superhumans) in Sci-Fi Super Armor with straight up Faith magic, and that isn't even going into the fact that we're talking about a setting with freaks like Sly Marbo, where the genetical fever dream called creating Space Marines somehow actually leads to functional Super Soldiers(hell Sisters of Battle were even often enough one of the many especially hippocritical arguments against female Space Marines XD) and in which humans can apparently live for thousands of years on planets that would in reality eradicate them in less than one generation.

Void__Dragon wrote:
What are you taking Sisters of Battle for then? Because it surely isn't their shooting or staying power either.

As meat shields for the Simulacrum, and otherwise to have cool looking figures on the shelves XD...

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Basing the in-game stats on the representation of models in animations/books/videogames is the worst way to balance a unit. Of course units are gonna look OP and badass, and just because Sister Jane Doe managed to do that once doesn't mean every sister has the same power.

Right, in-game stats should be instead based on tHeY'Re OnLY hUmANs forum opinions, from people who either have no clue about Sisters of Battle or probably also believe Comic Batman if not even Cassandra Cain do what human peak martial artists really do XD...

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Do sisters need a buff? Absolutely, but letting them kill skorpek destroyers isnt the way to do it.

Just fix melta and make it :

[MELTA X]: Increase the Strength and Damage by ‘x’ when
targeting units within half range.

Oh dear lord, that's exactly what i see GW in their limitless incompetence do in january, just to make a surprised Pikachu face after finding out why that will be around as much of a fix as the silly below half strength +1 to wound in the gakky detachment rule of Sisters(Spoiler alert: just like any halfway competent opponent will just kill or play around most of the Ultra fragile Sister units instead of leaving them below half strength which is anyways often just a very dubious buff, any halfway competent opponent will also never let any Ultra fragile + not particularly fast glass canon units with meltas get anywhere close to just 9 inches away from a valuable vehicle that will most certainly have notably more range itself anyway).

**Totalwar1402**

tneva82 wrote:
Hard to take seriously guy that thinks 10 pa marines easily one shotted should cost over 400 pts.

Rookie who thinks extra wound means double durability

It’s hard to take seriously people who think doubling the wounds and tripling the attacks on models isn’t adding value to them. Same as doubling bolter shots, letting them advance and fire, giving them heavy to hit on 2s. If they don’t have any value then why is Sisters getting a buff to distinguish them from trash units like Neopytes and Guardsman a problem?

Just because there’s a few broken units that can kill marines that are also criminally undercosted for what they do, that doesn’t mean marines are balanced. They’re far too cheap for what they do. A marine squad should never be in the same points bracket as a Sisters squad.

Okay, let’s say there’s no value to the close combat difference and let’s compare shooting.

5 Intercessors 85 points
10 sisters 100 points

So the Sisters should be vastly better at shooting then those 5 marines because they cost more and are weaker in every other regard. So let’s have them both shoot at 5 marines

5 marines standing still do 2 wounds to a marine squad at 24

10 Sisters does 1 wound if you give them all bolters at 24

So if they just had bolters that Sisters squad at 24 has only half the firepower of 5 Intercessors

Let’s give the Sisters 2 meltaguns and say they’re within 12

1.66 with bolters
1.11 with a melta which arguably kills a single marine so we’ll round it to 2 wounds

So the Sisters do about four wounds to the marines two. If they get close enough to be charged and butchered in close combat next turn. So you can get better shooting than the marine but you have to get close enough where he can delete you in close combat. So the Sisters will lose this fight in every encounter.

That’s hardly a massive increase in fire power to justify marines being vastly better in every other category. Plus, they can always Oath of Moment if they really wanted to. It’s also entirely reliant on those special weapons being incorporated and is penalising you for not taking the most deadly option.

**JNAProductions**

Okay, I know that 10 AP0 Bolters round to 1 wound to MEQ and 10 AP-1 Bolters round to 2 wounds to MEQ, but that's overstating the difference. It's 1.11 to 1.67.

Also, having thought on it, I'll definitely agree that WS3+ and A2 for baseline Sisters would be fine. It won't fix them, not by a long shot, but it'd be a fine improvement.

**VladimirHerzog**

gunchar wrote:

Oh dear lord, that's exactly what i see GW in their limitless incompetence do in january, just to make a surprised Pikachu face after finding out why that will be around as much of a fix as the silly below half strength +1 to wound in the gakky detachment rule of Sisters(Spoiler alert: just like any halfway competent opponent will just kill or play around most of the Ultra fragile Sister units instead of leaving them below half strength which is anyways often just a very dubious buff, any halfway competent player will also never get any Ultra fragile + not particularly fast glass canon units with meltas come anywhere close to 9 inches from a valuable vehicle that will most certainly have notably more range itself anyway).

can you at least be coherent in your rant?

**Dudeface**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
If they don’t have any value then why is Sisters getting a buff to distinguish them from trash units like Neopytes and Guardsman a problem?

Those units both have worse base guns, BS, armour save and no invuln.

So yeah, you consider them peers atm?

**MinscS2**

Regular battle sisters probably should have 2 attacks with their close combat weapons tbh (but remain WS4+), as this would put them on par with other human elite-units like Kasrkins and Scions who have 2 WS4+ S3 attacks each in combat.

Speaking about Kasrkins (100 pts for 10) and Scions (110 pts for 10), battle sisters look pretty alright @ 100 pts per squad compared to those two;

Both are WS4+ and BS3+.
S4 AP- (Bolters) vs S3 AP1 (H.S Lasguns)
Sisters can have 1 special + 1 heavy.
Scions/Kasrkin can have 2+2 specials.

And then while Scions/Kasrkin have a 4+ save and OC1, sisters have a 3+/6++ save and OC2.

(As for special rules, I'd all 3 units have pretty decent rules. Sisters probably the worst but again, they have a big edge in save and OC.)

So by all means, buff sisters, but don't forget to buff every similar unit in that case. Suddenly if Kasrkin and Sisters are down to 8-9 ppm, isn't it about time we buffed GEQ's too? Is a GEQ really worth 6-6,5 ppm when a Kasrkin/Sister is a mere point or two more expensive but twice as good?

Hopefully you see where I'm going with this. There is a diminishing return at one point where a model with a certain save and loadout can't get cheaper, even if there are more *expensive* models in the game who perhaps are slightly more points-efficient.

Looks to me more like the problem with sisters isn't so much the girls themselves, but that they're restricted to (mainly) meltas and flamers, and that meltas are a bit meh atm. I'd probably support a buff to meltas, but at the same time I don't want previous editions back where meltas where completely dominant and wrecked everything left right and center. Perhaps giving the [melta]-rule +1 to wound against vehicles and monsters if within half range would solve it, but it might also be too much, I can't really tell.

**Totalwar1402**

Dudeface wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
If they don’t have any value then why is Sisters getting a buff to distinguish them from trash units like Neopytes and Guardsman a problem?

Those units both have worse base guns, BS, armour save and no invuln.

So yeah, you consider them peers atm?

Slightly worse base guns. They have access to lascannons, plasma and analogue items such as mining lasers and quake cannons.

They can also regenerate either through cheap CP or just as a built in rule for Genecult.

Also the bolters only got a pip of strength difference ever since AP5 stopped being a thing and they decided to create a new class of boltguns to spite non Astartes units. So now Sisters have the worst bolters in the game where before they had the same guns.

While at the same time they can take two units for every one sisters unit. Which means they have more actions and can handle objectives. Sisters cannot double out marines at their points value so can’t even argue the actions/objective thing. That only happens because the army has even cheaper 2 model trash that are holdovers from Witchhunters.

Also Guard infantry have orders. Genecult have their deep strike and get AP mechanics. Etc etc. Whereas Sisters have to die to get modest buffs. Oh yeah and they can maybe change out one dice.

Whilst having exactly the same close combat potential….

If you wrote any story where Sisters of Battle charged into close combat with an equal number of Neopytes that would be depicted as an even fight. They’ve done books where one Sisters squad pretty much holds off a whole uprising and kill hundreds of them.

**Dudeface**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
If they don’t have any value then why is Sisters getting a buff to distinguish them from trash units like Neopytes and Guardsman a problem?

Those units both have worse base guns, BS, armour save and no invuln.

So yeah, you consider them peers atm?

Slightly worse base guns. They have access to lascannons, plasma and analogue items such as mining lasers and quake cannons.

They can also regenerate either through cheap CP or just as a built in rule for Genecult.

Also the bolters only got a pip of strength difference ever since AP5 stopped being a thing and they decided to create a new class of boltguns to spite non Astartes units. So now Sisters have the worst bolters in the game where before they had the same guns.

While at the same time they can take two units for every one sisters unit. Which means they have more actions and can handle objectives. Sisters cannot double out marines at their points value so can’t even argue the actions/objective thing. That only happens because the army has even cheaper 2 model trash that are holdovers from Witchhunters.

Also Guard infantry have orders. Genecult have their deep strike and get AP mechanics. Etc etc. Whereas Sisters have to die to get modest buffs. Oh yeah and they can maybe change out one dice.

Whilst having exactly the same close combat potential….

If you wrote any story where Sisters of Battle charged into close combat with an equal number of Neopytes that would be depicted as an even fight. They’ve done books where one Sisters squad pretty much holds off a whole uprising and kill hundreds of them.

10 neophytes with a mining laser and a grenade launcher, 10 sisters with a pair of storm bolters to keep it fair:

Sisters at 24" - kill 3.6 neophytes
Sisters at 12" - kill 7.1 neophyes

Neophytes (stationary) at 24" - kill 1.7 sisters
Neohpytes (stationary) at 12" - kill 2.7 sisters

In fisticuffs assuming the same loadout:

Sisters kill 1.8 neophytes, the other way round is unsurprisingly 0.9.

Sisters are at least twice as effective into neophytes as the other way round whilst costing a mere 10 points more, army rules aside. If you consider the chance of the neophytes coming back vs the fact they just gave that sisters unit +1 to hit by killing 1-2 of them, it more or less balances out the maths for another turn. Same again once you're in +1 to wound. This also doesn't count any miracle die to make a save somewhere etc.

So, back over to you to move the goalpost again.