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Per the new munitorium update

10 Sisters of Battle - 100 points
9 Black Templar initiates and a Sword Brethren - 125 points
10 Intercessors - 170 points

A Sister of Battle is a 1 wound T3 model with 1 strength 3 attack. That hits on a 4.

A Black Templar Initiate has two wounds, is T4 with 5 strength 4 ap-1 attacks. That hit on a 3.

Yet there’s apparently a 2 point difference here per model. Yeah, if they all had meltaguns and devastating hits maybe I guess; but they don’t. Like this is the right hand not talking to the left hand here.

So either the marine squad should be 4 times more expensive to reflect the actual value of the squad and not say “well ten guys should be around 120 points because that’s what an Exocrine costs (which it shouldn’t BTW)” or, you know, maybe Sisters should get a profile increase because it’s not third edition anymore.

The rules are there to sell you on the fantasy of the faction. I mean, the above example just outright isn’t fair even if this was chess. But in the trailers, books etc etc this is meant to be a larger than life faction filled with Joan of Arc style saints in power armour. If a squad of Sisters of Battle ran into some Genestealer cultists they should absolutely massacre them. One of the best equipped fighting forces and where its characters such as in Dawn of Fire are shown keeping pace and fighting with Space Marines. Currently, the rules are forcing you to pay marine points for units where they have half the wounds and a fifth of the attacks. That’s dumb.

Basically let’s compare a marine in 3rd edition to a 3rd edition Sister of Battle

WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 A1 W1 LD8 SV3

WS3 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1 W1 LD8 SV3

So, the Sister does what the marine does shooting wise but is a tier less durable and is a step down in close combat. With the Sister being about 2/3 the value of a tactical marine.

Since then marine got two extra attacks and an extra wound. They also got better guns and close combat weapons with AP and additional rules when before they had the same gear; because reasons. This was done so that people felt like marines were an elite army and to make them more durable without changing strength and toughness. Purely a gameplay mechanic to sell you on the fantasy of the faction. Marines just didn’t feel like marines with 1 wound and 1 attack due to how damage was going up.

So, Sisters of Battle should have their profile increased in line with this. Probably something like

WS3plus BS3 plus S3 T3 A2 W2 SV3 plus

This changes WS, attacks and wounds. This reflects that Sisters of Battle are wearing power armour, meant to be dangerous and makes them durable without changing their strength or toughness which are the main distinctions of marines. They also still have less attacks than a Space Marine and Celestians did have two attacks until the unit was cut. As for weapon skill, 4 plus to hit in melee does not reflect a competent fighter. Genestealer Acolyes hit on 3 as do various other trash units. It simply means that they can do decent in close combat and bully trash units in close combat. Which they should be able to do in the lore.

I much prefer that to slapping a ton of additional rules to give them more damage. Let’s give them all devastating hits and call it sacred rites. Giving them back armour of contempt. No, the statline needs to change and even then those points are still wildly out of line. The above profile is not worth a hundred points if Black Templar squads are 125 and maybe it’s a bit more in line with the Intercessors.

#2wprimariswasamistake

Where are you getting 5 attacks per model?

10 Sisters for 100 pts look pretty fine compared to 10 Intercessors for 170 pts.
(Both have a 3+ save and a Bolter of some kind - let's not be disingenuous and pretend that you're getting sisters for that 1 WS4+ S3 melee attack and use that at some kind of argument to boost them because marines have WS3+ and S4.)

The outlier is the Initiates.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Where are you getting 5 attacks per model?

Black Templar Initiates have 5 attacks apiece.

 MinscS2 wrote:
10 Sisters for 100 pts look pretty fine compared to 10 Intercessors for 170 pts.
(Both have a 3+ save and a Bolter of some kind - let's not be disingenuous and pretend that you're getting sisters for that 1 WS4+ S3 melee attack and use that at some kind of argument to boost them because marines have WS3+ and S4.)

The outlier is the Initiates.

Eh... The Intercessors are approximately twice as durable, have twice as many shots at long range, Assault, Heavy, and have AP-1 on their guns instead of AP0. Not to mention, their close combat is useful, whereas a squad of Sisters doesn't have CC worth rolling for, generally speaking.

That being said, I do think the discrepancy between Intercessors and Sisters could be solved via points. If 10 Sisters were 90 points and 10 Intercessors were 180, that seems reasonably fair to me. (Or at least worth testing.) Whether or not that's balanced with the rest of the game is another matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Where are you getting 5 attacks per model?

Black Templar Initiates have 5 attacks apiece.

But the squad is 1 Sword Brethren, 5 Initiates, and 4 Neophytes at min size.
Neophytes aren't as good in CC.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Where are you getting 5 attacks per model?

Black Templar Initiates have 5 attacks apiece.

No they don't. They have A3 with chainswords and pistols or A2 with close combat weapons and boltguns.

 MinscS2 wrote:
10 Sisters for 100 pts look pretty fine compared to 10 Intercessors for 170 pts.
(Both have a 3+ save and a Bolter of some kind - let's not be disingenuous and pretend that you're getting sisters for that 1 WS4+ S3 melee attack and use that at some kind of argument to boost them because marines have WS3+ and S4.)

The outlier is the Initiates.

If they keep the profile then just using points they should be 40 percent the points of marines. Not over 50 percent. Sisters squads should be around 75 points if they refuse to boost the faction or increase marine points.

What do you get for those 7 points

- Three times the attacks
- Double the wounds
- Pip of strength
- Pip of toughness
- Hit on 3 instead of 4
- A gun with an additional AP, advance and the heavy key word

A sisters squad has the same close combat punch as an Imperial Guard or Neophyte squad. Sisters should be able to damage units like that in close combat. Two special weapons don’t make up for all the marine guns being better and having the option to reliably kill trash.As it stands, that trailer where the Sisters charge Necron Warriors and win would never happen.

Also Celestians had WS3 and 2A in the last edition for 13 points. It’s really not a massive stretch to say that what all Sisters of Battle are like. That you wouldn’t be given a really expensive power armour without being a capable fighter.

With all the points drops they’re more likely to continue dropping marines in points.

Also if you look in the rulebook and the army description it says Sisters are famed for their durability as they wear power armour. It does not say they’re weak and who want to use MSU to play the objective whilst the real factions fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Where are you getting 5 attacks per model?

Black Templar Initiates have 5 attacks apiece.

No they don't. They have A3 with chainswords and pistols or A2 with close combat weapons and boltguns.

3 attacks is the close combat weapon the bolters get. Same as the Intercessor.

5 attacks is what the Astartes Chainsword gets.

Total War, are you looking at Crusader Squads? Which have 1 Sword Brother, 4-9 Initiates, and 0-10 Neophytes, but only 3 attacks with their Chainswords.
Or are you looking at Primaris Crusader Squads? Which have 1 Primaris Sword Brother, 5-11 Initiates, and 4-8 Neophytes, but do have 5 attacks with their Chainswords.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
3 attacks is the close combat weapon the bolters get. Same as the Intercessor.

5 attacks is what the Astartes Chainsword gets.

Nope. Those are on the primaris unit, the 125 for 10 non-primaris unit has A3 chainswords. Primaris have a significantly higher point cost and can't take pure initiate squads.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Total War, are you looking at Crusader Squads? Which have 1 Sword Brother, 4-9 Initiates, and 0-10 Neophytes, but only 3 attacks with their Chainswords.
Or are you looking at Primaris Crusader Squads? Which have 1 Primaris Sword Brother, 5-11 Initiates, and 4-8 Neophytes, but do have 5 attacks with their Chainswords.

Ah I thought they’d just merged them.

Yeah so stats I am looking at the Primaris. Which are 140 points. Still ridiculous, same as the Intercessor.. Sisters and marines should not be remotely comparable points costs. If we live in a world where 2 wound 5 attack infantry are cheap line units then Sisters need to massively drop in points.

The normal crusaders lose two attacks for 125 pts. But it’s this left hand not talking to the right. That’s still stupidly cheap compared to what other armies can bring. Twenty Gaunts or ten marines?

You're also not bringing Sisters of Battle for their melee.
A Crusader Squad with Chainswords does not have any Boltguns, making their shooting significantly worse.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You're also not bringing Sisters of Battle for their melee.
A Crusader Squad with Chainswords does not have any Boltguns, making their shooting significantly worse.

Yeah, the close combat potential to annihilate a good few units for losing 1 strength 4 shot.

Being able to kill a Neopyte squad in close combat is pretty cool. It just gives them another tool to use and role beyond being two special weapons and the help. That’s boring and I shouldn’t be paying an Exocrines point value for 2 Sisters with meltaguns; so I think they should get a modest boost somewhere.

Also, it’s basically just giving them the statline 13 point Celestians had last edition. So, they have had that close combat punch it’s not like there’s no precedent here.

In lore Sisters should be reasonably good in close combat because they do it all the time in the books and with how they’re presented.

Also, Sisters used to have rules like Sacred rites which gives them a boost in close combat. This is just bringing that into the profile like marine got their shock assault. That seems perfectly fair.

Finally, why are all marine units hitting on 3 same as their core troops, but with Sisters they hit on 4 and all suddenly jump a category? Surely it’s easier to just make all Sisters hit on 3 that aren’t the trainee unit. Who actually hit on 3 last edition. Now they’re 4 which makes the literal raw recruits have the same weapon skill as a full Sister of Battle. That’s silly.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Surely it’s easier to just make all Sisters hit on 3 that aren’t the trainee unit.

And therefore continue the power creep where anything that isn't WS/BS 3+ or better is cannon fodder. What GW really needs to do is scale back marine troops to BS/WS 4+, with elite units either getting WS 3+ or BS 3+ but not both.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Surely it’s easier to just make all Sisters hit on 3 that aren’t the trainee unit.

And therefore continue the power creep where anything that isn't WS/BS 3+ or better is cannon fodder. What GW really needs to do is scale back marine troops to BS/WS 4+, with elite units either getting WS 3+ or BS 3+ but not both.

I don't think that's needed.

Because any given damage is a 2-4 roll procedure (Hit, Wound, Save, FNP) even if you hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ while completely denying saves, less than half of your shots will do anything.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't think that's needed.

Because any given damage is a 2-4 roll procedure (Hit, Wound, Save, FNP) even if you hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ while completely denying saves, less than half of your shots will do anything.

So then why is it acceptable for other armies to be stuck hitting on 4s?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't think that's needed.

Because any given damage is a 2-4 roll procedure (Hit, Wound, Save, FNP) even if you hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ while completely denying saves, less than half of your shots will do anything.

So then why is it acceptable for other armies to be stuck hitting on 4s?

Because they're less elite?
And many other units from other armies DO hit on a 3+.

If you want to consolidate the hit and wound step into a single attack step, then I think having 4+ be a baseline might actually be a bit too good. (Though 5+ likely not good enough-the granularity of a d6 and all.)

Let me put this another way-you've got a 10-man Marine squad with 20 Bolter shots. (Ordinary AP0 shots.) How much damage should they do to another squad of MEQ?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because they're less elite?

Crisis suits are more elite than basic marine troops and are BS 4+. And lore-wise making 3+ the standard means anything with BS/WS 4+ feels like a cannon fodder horde, not competent professional soldiers.

Let me put this another way-you've got a 10-man Marine squad with 20 Bolter shots. (Ordinary AP0 shots.) How much damage should they do to another squad of MEQ?

That's the wrong question to ask, the topic here is relative performance and stats. There's nothing inherently correct about 3+ or 4+ or whatever as the target number, the issue is that 3+ has gone from being elite to the standard and now you're advocating making more units have BS/WS 3+ so that stat is even less elite.

The problem with SoB isn't what ever they have +3 or +4 BS. They could be +2 and it wouldn't change much. GW just didn't design their weapons and special rules to fit 10th ed. High cost armies that have to lose units to get access to some of their rules is bad. Bolters and melta as only weapons are a very bad base of an army. The army can't shot, can't melee and have no special rules to make up for it. With their miracles could make them super resilient and/or allowed their squads to go nova, then maybe we could have arguments how much they cost and what unit composition they have been given by GW and how it should be fixed. Right now their infantry could drop 5-10% and the difference would still not be felt.

Oddly I'm gonna agree with Karol here, the problem with Sisters isn't their base stat line, it's that their special rules SUCK

Speaking as someone with a small sisters army, it's not MARINES I'm pissed at.

IT'S ELDAR!

Let's compare the Sisters of Battle special rule to the eldar one.

Sisters of Battle gain 1 mircle die at the start of each turn and gain additional ones each time a SOB unit is destroyed. you can swap out your mircle die for a die when you make an advance roll, battle shock test, charge roll, damage roll hit roll saving throw or wound roll.

Eldar meanwhile get strands of fate, which is the same thing except they start with 12 dice and don't gain anymore.

SOBs have simply weaker rules then the eldar fate dice ability, requiring them to lose 2 units a turn just to generate an amount of mircle dice on par.

so yeah SOBs need some thought, but simply turning them into "Marines with lipstick" isn't the way to go.

BrianDavion wrote:


SOBs have simply weaker rules then the eldar fate dice ability, requiring them to lose 2 units a turn just to generate an amount of mircle dice on par.

Just a reminder- Cherubs are a 2 for one deal, restoring an MD that you've used; Simulacra allow you to generate an MD for every unit you destroy, and you gain an MD on each of your turns for every objective controlled by a BSS.

I don't disagree with the sentiment of your post- fate dice ARE better, especially on turn 1 and even turn 2. But no, you don't have to die to generate twelve MD.

I was happy to see most Sisters units get cheaper with the data slate, but more could be done. A melta bump is what I'd like to see- especially since we know it can be done in a way that won't affect other armies.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because they're less elite?

Crisis suits are more elite than basic marine troops and are BS 4+. And lore-wise making 3+ the standard means anything with BS/WS 4+ feels like a cannon fodder horde, not competent professional soldiers.

Let me put this another way-you've got a 10-man Marine squad with 20 Bolter shots. (Ordinary AP0 shots.) How much damage should they do to another squad of MEQ?

That's the wrong question to ask, the topic here is relative performance and stats. There's nothing inherently correct about 3+ or 4+ or whatever as the target number, the issue is that 3+ has gone from being elite to the standard and now you're advocating making more units have BS/WS 3+ so that stat is even less elite.

I agree wholeheartedly, I'd rather see more stuff hit on 4+ than start dragging things up to 3+ as a norm. It might be wiser to lower other units lethality rather than have a race to the top imo.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
10 Sisters for 100 pts look pretty fine compared to 10 Intercessors for 170 pts.
(Both have a 3+ save and a Bolter of some kind - let's not be disingenuous and pretend that you're getting sisters for that 1 WS4+ S3 melee attack and use that at some kind of argument to boost them because marines have WS3+ and S4.)

The outlier is the Initiates.

Eh... The Intercessors are approximately twice as durable, have twice as many shots at long range, Assault, Heavy, and have AP-1 on their guns instead of AP0. Not to mention, their close combat is useful, whereas a squad of Sisters doesn't have CC worth rolling for, generally speaking.

That being said, I do think the discrepancy between Intercessors and Sisters could be solved via points. If 10 Sisters were 90 points and 10 Intercessors were 180, that seems reasonably fair to me. (Or at least worth testing.) Whether or not that's balanced with the rest of the game is another matter.

I think I'd rather see a stat increase. A small one. Maybve give them two attacks, give them Assault Sisters with 3-4. I'd like to see Sisters be Guard Marines. Have them be similar unit types with Guardsman stats and close to guardsman points - the trade off is they don't get the big or plentiful guard armor - especially the Super Heavies. I think taking a little from both would give them a decent niche.

Breton wrote:

I think I'd rather see a stat increase. A small one. Maybve give them two attacks, give them Assault Sisters with 3-4. I'd like to see Sisters be Guard Marines. Have them be similar unit types with Guardsman stats and close to guardsman points - the trade off is they don't get the big or plentiful guard armor - especially the Super Heavies. I think taking a little from both would give them a decent niche.

arent repentia the "assault sisters"?

Sisters being inferior to marines point for point is kind of the point of them. They are 'supposed' to make it back through special weapons and faith, but in 10th their special weapons aren't particularly special and their lack of faith is disturbing.

But they don't need stat increases, just better faction mechanics to give them a more decisive swing when needed.

A.T. wrote:
Sisters being inferior to marines point for point is kind of the point of them. They are 'supposed' to make it back through special weapons and faith, but in 10th their special weapons aren't particularly special and their lack of faith is disturbing.

But they don't need stat increases, just better faction mechanics to give them a more decisive swing when needed.

Because they aren’t just inferior to marines. They’re one of the worst units in the game and outclassed by things that should be weaker than them lore wise.

10 strength 3 attacks hitting on 4 is the same as an Imperial guard squad.

Whereas Intercessors have 30 strength 4 attacks hitting on 3.

Acolytes which are just random mutants get tons of attacks and hit on 3 for no reason in close combat with AP. They just happen to have doom bombs.

Like even the profile boost I suggested earlier is just giving Sisters the same CC potential as bolter armed Celestians. It just means they have the option to bully Termagaunts instead of being one of the few armies in the game where they’re even in close combat. That’s silly. They’re in power armour.

Also, last edition, through Sacred Rites and Bloody Rose Sisters essentially had 2 attacks -1 ap and sustained hits so could be near 3 attacks in practice. Losing that hasn’t been factored into their cost.

10th edition wants to keep the special rules down. Shock assault just got slapped on the marines core profile, why should sacred rites and Bloody Rose stuff not get folded in. Looking at that Nid Codex we are not getting a crazy Bloody Rose detachment that solves everything. If you want to give them more attacks like Bloody Rose then just give them more attacks instead of a special rule that does the same thing.

Acolytes are not mutants, but Genestealer hybrids. They are a mid point bewteen a human and a Generstealer, and Genestealers are defined by having a tons of attacks with great WS and AP.

A normal human getting into a melee fight with a Genestealer Hybrid should get torn apart.

I do believe Sisters should be hitting in 3+ to represent their very elite training. But they are also just human.

 Tyran wrote:
Acolytes are not mutants, but Genestealer hybrids. They are a mid point bewteen a human and a generstealer, and genestealers are defined by having a tons of attacks with great WS and AP.

A normal human getting into a melee fight with a Genestealer Hybrid should get torn apart.

I do believe Sisters should be hitting in 3+ to represent their very elite training. But they are also just human.

yeah, and the gear of acolytes is what makes them over the top, remove the demo charges and theyre much less of a nuke.

Same deal with sisters, fix their gear and theyre gonna do much better, their base stat is fine

The demo charge is kinda ridiculus, in that I also agree.

I feel like Kasrkin are a better point of comparison, but what do I know?