Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

back in the day there seemed to both female Orcs and Orks - now they just appear in Blood Bowl

One option not mentioned that goes back to Ork's fantasy origins as Orcs is they may be like the OLD WHFB Fimir... I'll let you research for yourself on that topic.
Interesting to note while looking up LOTR Orcs (which all modern ones are based on, let's face it) that Tolkien said there were female orcs.. and in the movies 1/2 of all the extras in makeup were women.. Huh.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
One option not mentioned that goes back to Ork's fantasy origins as Orcs is they may be like the OLD WHFB Fimir... I'll let you research for yourself on that topic.
Interesting to note while looking up LOTR Orcs (which all modern ones are based on, let's face it) that Tolkien said there were female orcs.. and in the movies 1/2 of all the extras in makeup were women.. Huh.

I don’t think it was ever really explained indepth but I think the only hint we have from Tolkien that Orks also do it like humans is that Bolg is the son of Azog, right?

That being said personally I find the "Green Orks" no matter if Warhammer, Warcraft, DnD or Elder Scrolls so far removed from Tolkien Orcs (or how I imagine them) that for me it's hard to draw conclusions from the one to the others.

If ORKS really do reproduce with spores, and the young ORKS emerge fully formed and ready to go from the ground then why do they have nipples? WHY????

On a more current “lore” point, it isn’t fact that ORKS reproduce by spores, the 9th codex added in all manner of. Speculation, and everything that seems to be accepted ORK lore was presented as theories with other explanations given as well.

Ultimately we don’t KNOW any of these things about Orks and can only speculate. Gender or sex do not appear or matter or even be present in ORK culture.

The use of pronouns in the fiction depicting them is not an indicator either, that is purely a translation issue, neither is the word “boy”. It clearly has a different meaning that currently implies no gender association.

Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?

Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.

So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well

From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.

Andykp wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?

Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.

You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brickfix wrote:
So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well

Yeah, this one



I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.

I’m not familiar with this fluff? Rogue Trader didn’t include it (there it was Old Ork wanders off, Wildboyz wander in), so I’m missing something in my collection.

For clarity of tone, this is an honest open question, not passive aggressive drivel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?

Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.

You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brickfix wrote:
So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well

Yeah, this one



I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?

Came from Gorkamorka


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what we call nipples on an Ork aren’t necessarily nips as we understand them. For all we know, they could be stamen, or a sensory organ, anything really.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.

I’m not familiar with this fluff? Rogue Trader didn’t include it (there it was Old Ork wanders off, Wildboyz wander in), so I’m missing something in my collection.

For clarity of tone, this is an honest open question, not passive aggressive drivel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?

Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.

You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brickfix wrote:
So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well

Yeah, this one



I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?

Came from Gorkamorka


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what we call nipples on an Ork aren’t necessarily nips as we understand them. For all we know, they could be stamen, or a sensory organ, anything really.

Could also be vestigial remnants from whatever the Old Ones engineered them from. Morphologically they’re actually quite similar to the Eldar (especially compared to some of the wackier Old One engineered races) who are also a psychic weapon species and do have a sex binary. It’s possible that they have some sort of common ‘ancestor’ that the Old Ones blended with whatever gives the fungal element (and maybe something else for the more simian posture).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.

I’m not familiar with this fluff? Rogue Trader didn’t include it (there it was Old Ork wanders off, Wildboyz wander in), so I’m missing something in my collection.

For clarity of tone, this is an honest open question, not passive aggressive drivel.
.

The pouches thing is from RT days, when only the biggest, oldest orks reproduced. I expanded onto the nursing part to explain the nips… and also for the squick factor.

The RT-2nd edition orks didn’t have tinkering old ones to explain their nips.

That spore cocoon image appears in the report on Ork biology by Genetor-Major Lukas Anzion (an Imperial xenobiologist) in Codex: Orks (3rd edition).

The image may have appeared earlier in Gorkamorka but it has a lot of relevant context provided by the biologis report.

WAY back before the 3rd ed codex, orks reproduced with two sexes just like other species.

I remember a Rogue Trader era article about Ork Genestealer Hybrids that talked about why stealer cults have a harder time on ork worlds because most orks do not pursue reproduction until late in their life cycle. And the small cults would then sell their services as freebooters.

The conversions of ork-genestealer hybrids were really cool. Sad to see them go the way of the tyranid squig swarms


Of course the ork minis all seemed coded male (like most things) so perhaps orks had very little gender dimorphism.

There were orc cheerleaders in Blood Bowl, but that isn't in continuity with 40k

I really derailed things with my nipple comments and I did not mean to, apologies. Who knew they were so interesting.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?

Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.

You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brickfix wrote:
So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well

Yeah, this one



I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?

Edited the pic to highlight the “nipple like feature”.

Andykp wrote:
I really derailed things with my nipple comments and I did not mean to, apologies. Who knew they were so interesting.

Hugh Hefner.

And unlike the orks, he knew how to put the information to profitable use.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 TheChrispyOne wrote:

Interesting to note while looking up LOTR Orcs (which all modern ones are based on, let's face it) that Tolkien said there were female orcs.. and in the movies 1/2 of all the extras in makeup were women.. Huh.

I don’t think it was ever really explained indepth but I think the only hint we have from Tolkien that Orks also do it like humans is that Bolg is the son of Azog, right?

That being said personally I find the "Green Orks" no matter if Warhammer, Warcraft, DnD or Elder Scrolls so far removed from Tolkien Orcs (or how I imagine them) that for me it's hard to draw conclusions from the one to the others.

Tolkien never really settled on the origin of the orcs. The problem as he saw it was the idea of a race with free will (which the orcs clearly had) that was also irredeemably evil. So he came up with various ideas of how the orcs came to be, but was never fully satisfied with any of them. One idea that he did codify was that only Eru could grant free will. So Morgoth most likely twisted members of a pre-existing race. But other than that, it was never settled.

Despite the lack of an origin, it's almost certain that Tolkien envisioned them with two sexes, and reproducing that way. All of the Tolkien races that we have information about reproduce in that fashion - even the Ents. It's unlikely that the orcs would be different.

One of the issues with Tolkien's orcs is the existence of half-orcs (hobgoblins/uruk hai).

These creatures are half human and half orc- which makes the orcs somehow way more evil.

It is really easy to imagine how that happens with normal sexual reproduction, but it also seems that this isn't how those orcs came to be (since their existence seemed to have been caused by Saruman, and their population was concentrated there).

There’s also the half-orc man they meet in town early on, with the squinty eyes. Not only is it implied the orcs reproduce sexually with humans, but their descriptions also consistently point to what Tolkien himself described as “that most unpleasant of Mongol types”, which makes them more analogous to a human race than to a fantasy mushroom-pod person.

The most obvious interpretation of LOTR is Saruman had dungeon breeding pits full of humans and orcs, but that was way too dark to spell out.

.. What if, since orks love fighting, "skrappin with da boyz" is akin to flirting/ 1st-2nd base?


Is there room in that shower still?

 Mr Morden wrote:
back in the day there seemed to both female Orcs and Orks - now they just appear in Blood Bowl

Yeah i was trying to figure that one out.
Oi you wanna c squig or sum nan hangers. Aint got all day love, dez squiqs are hangrey.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
.. What if, since orks love fighting, "skrappin with da boyz" is akin to flirting/ 1st-2nd base?


Is there room in that shower still?

I mean I still believe Ghazghkull and Yarrick is the biggest 40k love story.

OK can someone please give me a book/WD issue type citation for Orks gestating in another Ork?

Not because I’m looking to be difficult. Rather I dimly recollect hearing it before, but can find no so much mention in 1st or 2nd Ed Published Books (by which I specifically mean Waaargh! The Orks, ‘Ere We Go, Freebooterz and Codex Orks)

I don’t think my copies are missing any pages, but for sake of transparency I’ll happily accept that perhaps I am.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I specifically mean Waaargh! The Orks

p88

"Unlike other races, Orks have no genders. The breeding ability develops in an Ork after he reaches maturity and becomes feral. Roughly half of the wild Orks develop marsupial pouches, in which an Ork whelp is born and nurtured. After a short span of time, the whelp is big enough to leave the pouch. The feral parent feeds the whelp on Squigs and teaches him how to survive in the wilderness. This gives the young Orks their tough, resourceful character."