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Sometimes you employ people and it just doesn't work. Its not always the employees fault - but you can't expect an employer to just pay them indefinitely to twiddle their thumbs. There's no point having a shop if no one is using it. Its not evil to shrink or close it down.

Feel the analysis on 40k depending on "the rich" is also a bit suspect. Unless the criteria of rich is rendered very broad. Sure its going a bit extreme - but do I want to spend £100-150 on some 40k this summer, versus do I want to buy a Porsche, do I want to go on a three week all expenses paid holiday to Barbados? These are not really the same thing.

Pretty sure GW is doing well because there's still a wide "middle class", who aren't going "£250~ a year on Warhammer? That's going to cause real hardship".

Its the same with say Computer Games. Spending £50, $70 or whatever they are now a game is a lot of money - and if its going to cause you problems, you shouldn't. But there are plenty of people who can spend that every few months (or indeed every month) without really noticing.

I gave simple answer for simple question. Any company can go under if they are not managed correct way.
In all seriousness, what I found most interesting in this report was their risk assessment and especially those concerning climate change.
Of those this caught my eye; They evaluated that in 3+ years time customer attitudes would pose high risk of affecting them:

GW Annual report wrote:If customer attitudes around climate and carbon emissions change in the future, as the younger generation of our hobbyists become a larger proportion of our customers then this may limit growth and increase pressure for change and action.

It's a valid concern - GW is basically a plastic firm doing plastic in an age where plastic is being increasingly seen as evil. That said steps like in-store recycling of sprue is a big move and honestly might be all GW needs to do to help keep that side of things happy.

Metals and resins come with their own environmental issues and even if GW started releasing wooden models there'd be issues with tree harvesting. So chances are they can never be 100% safe; but recycling measures; cutting down on non-essential plastic packaging and so forth are what they need to do and they are already doing them.


It is a good line of thought though and its interesting to consider that future generations could indeed have a backlash against heavily consumer focused hobbies like Warhammer, Lego, etc....
Though personally I think that might well come more from a result of firms like Hasbro and how they managed things like MTG in terms of super-squeezing profits

Tyel wrote:Feel the analysis on 40k depending on "the rich" is also a bit suspect. Unless the criteria of rich is rendered very broad. Sure its going a bit extreme - but do I want to spend £100-150 on some 40k this summer, versus do I want to buy a Porsche, do I want to go on a three week all expenses paid holiday to Barbados? These are not really the same thing.

Pretty sure GW is doing well because there's still a wide "middle class", who aren't going "£250~ a year on Warhammer? That's going to cause real hardship".

Its the same with say Computer Games. Spending £50, $70 or whatever they are now a game is a lot of money - and if its going to cause you problems, you shouldn't. But there are plenty of people who can spend that every few months (or indeed every month) without really noticing.

The following is a UK perspective, and applies less well to other GW markets.

It is broad strokes and trends, not a "reliance". GW is obviously still going to sell products to people across the socioconomic spectrum, but they are probably going to sell significantly more to people in the top income decile than those in the bottom decile, given they sell an entertainment product that isn't a required consumable (like food). GW prices have been rising above inflation, whereas income has not kept up with inflation for any income decile except the top 10%. The pandemic also involved an acceleration of this process whereby schemes like furlough had the economic impact of a government handout to the wealthier in society combined with a better work-life balance for many of them with a shift to working from home.

Putting all this together and it isn't difficult to see why GW has profited by increasingly shifting towards being a luxury product in a society where wealth inequality is widening, and why it particularly benefited from the circumstances of the pandemic.

Just a shame that those with less spending money haven't discovered far cheaper historical games.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Just a shame that those with less spending money haven't discovered far cheaper historical games.

Thing is, there are folk who want to wargame, and there’s folk to want to play 40K.

It’s the same reason I never bothered with non-Epic Space Marine epic scaled games. It’s not the scale I want to play, so much as a setting I adore and find super compelling.

Tiera wrote:
Running a business is not exactly rocket science - just concentrate on making a profit and there you have it.

* Weeps in business owner *

If England want to win this, they’ll to score more goals than the opposition.

 Overread wrote:
It's a valid concern - GW is basically a plastic firm doing plastic in an age where plastic is being increasingly seen as evil. That said steps like in-store recycling of sprue is a big move and honestly might be all GW needs to do to help keep that side of things happy.

GW are taking those steps but if they still see possible problems coming from customers in long term, they probably think what they are doing now and in those 3+ years time won't be enough.

I'm not trying to put anyone on a guilt trip here, but maybe community could be more vocal about these issues now rather than wait for those younger customers to do it in the future.

GW Annual report wrote:If customer attitudes around climate and carbon emissions change in the future...

Btw, I'm still curious what you meant with that "bending to new generations"?

edit.

Might as well add this:

 Overread wrote:
...its interesting to consider that future generations could indeed have a backlash against heavily consumer focused hobbies like Warhammer, Lego, etc....

We don't need to wait for future generations as that gak is going down right now.

Tiera wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's a valid concern - GW is basically a plastic firm doing plastic in an age where plastic is being increasingly seen as evil. That said steps like in-store recycling of sprue is a big move and honestly might be all GW needs to do to help keep that side of things happy.

GW are taking those steps but if they still see possible problems coming from customers in long term, they probably think what they are doing now and in those 3+ years time won't be enough.

I'm not trying to put anyone on a guilt trip here, but maybe community could be more vocal about these issues now rather than wait for those younger customers to do it in the future.

GW Annual report wrote:If customer attitudes around climate and carbon emissions change in the future...

Btw, I'm still curious what you meant with that "bending to new generations"?

Perhaps, but at the same time its hard to imagine how GW can change their product to be less than what it is without doing something drastic like going fully digital. Of course they could consider shifting to perhaps a plant-based-plastic. A cheeky move could be a "breaks down naturally/readily" but somehow I feel that wouldn't carry well marketing wise.


As for bending, my view on bending would be changing their product direction/scope/design in dramatic ways. Eg prepainted, action figure etc....
Of course there will be changes, some catering to newer markets and some not.

Much of what we have today is similar to what we had before - new Slaanesh models (to pick one that's often brought up as being potentially changed from historical) are pretty much in-line with what we had before.
Some changes also strike me as less "hunting new customers" and more just different pathways - eg I can see logic in cutting options from multi-weapon models as catering to old fans purely because it creates new slots for GW to create fresh unique models instead of "one does ten roles" styles like we had in the 2nd-3rd edition for some armies.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the old site wasn't compatible with their electronic warehouse system

(which also seems to be a bit of a dog... although to be fair most companies that invest in big outsourced IT projects end up with partial functionality and plenty of excuses),

so the old site had to go

Trashing your front end to solve a backend problem is certainly a choice.

 Tiera wrote:


I also liked how they stressed importance of GW stores, calling them places "where we recruit majority of our new customers" yet would not hesitate to close any of them if they were not profitable enough:

GW Annual report wrote:...The performance of each store will be kept under review and any stores that do not meet our financial model will be closed.

...We also have 136 multi-staff stores, which, like our single staff stores, are constantly reviewed to ensure they remain profitable. If not, they will probably be converted to single staff stores.

I can only imagine the stress of working at one of their stores in some less than ideal location and trying to sell enough of their overprice product to keep my job.

Did you all miss this part while piling on? This is by far one of the highest levels of cognitive dissonance that GW employs. One man stores (that close when the employee goes for lunch, or to the bathroom) in transit unfriendly strip malls. These are the hallowed beacons that welcome new collectors to the GW cult. Good luck with that! Can't imagine these stores are very good at doing what GW says they're for. I live in a large North American city that has as many IKEAs as GW stores, the former I visit regularly and the latter I rarely do. The one man store in strip mall was empty both times I went and the multi-staff store was full of regulars playing. I can make a guess which one has higher sales than the other. Neither is in the place where random are going to pop in because they saw neat models or cool art.

So, I'm going to give GW a laugh point for "where we recruit majority of our new customers".

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 Tiera wrote:


I also liked how they stressed importance of GW stores, calling them places "where we recruit majority of our new customers" yet would not hesitate to close any of them if they were not profitable enough:

GW Annual report wrote:...The performance of each store will be kept under review and any stores that do not meet our financial model will be closed.

...We also have 136 multi-staff stores, which, like our single staff stores, are constantly reviewed to ensure they remain profitable. If not, they will probably be converted to single staff stores.

I can only imagine the stress of working at one of their stores in some less than ideal location and trying to sell enough of their overprice product to keep my job.

Did you all miss this part while piling on? This is by far one of the highest levels of cognitive dissonance that GW employs. One man stores (that close when the employee goes for lunch, or to the bathroom) in transit unfriendly strip malls. These are the hallowed beacons that welcome new collectors to the GW cult. Good luck with that! Can't imagine these stores are very good at doing what GW says they're for. I live in a large North American city that has as many IKEAs as GW stores, the former I visit regularly and the latter I rarely do. The one man store in strip mall was empty both times I went and the multi-staff store was full of regulars playing. I can make a guess which one has higher sales than the other. Neither is in the place where random are going to pop in because they saw neat models or cool art.

So, I'm going to give GW a laugh point for "where we recruit majority of our new customers".

By contrast in the UK I have to travel 70 minutes personally to get to an IKEA but there's 3 GW stores nearer and all have people in.

Ymmv.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Neither is in the place where random are going to pop in because they saw neat models or cool art.

So, I'm going to give GW a laugh point for "where we recruit majority of our new customers".

You openly said one of the multi-staff stores was full of customers. Just sounds like perhaps there are more stores in that area than needed; OR the single staff store is empty at common hours but might be very busy in the evenings.

As for walk-in that's an issue for a LOT of stores right now because the main highstreets are so aggressively priced that its unprofitable (unsustainable) for many shops to be there. Back in the 90s GW was very much in those locations; today they are often, at least in the UK, in the "still good but clearly cheaper" part of the centre of town.

Once more, with feeling:

GW Annual report wrote:If customer attitudes around climate and carbon emissions change in the future, as the younger generation of our hobbyists become a larger proportion of our customers then this may limit growth and increase pressure for change and action.

Isn't this GW acknowledging they could do more right now but feel they don't have to?

 Overread wrote:
As for bending, my view on bending would be changing their product direction/scope/design in dramatic ways. Eg prepainted, action figure etc....
Of course there will be changes, some catering to newer markets and some not.

Much of what we have today is similar to what we had before - new Slaanesh models (to pick one that's often brought up as being potentially changed from historical) are pretty much in-line with what we had before.

Got to say I haven't seen or heard of people asking for such things, not new or old generations.

And I never understood where these "They're gonna change slaanesh to be less pervy! My army is ruined!" thoughts stemmed from.
They've always seemed more like rumors started by people thinking that as GW got so popular they have to change into more family-friendly direction - can't have that BDSM imagery no more, sorry lads.

I have a few stores within relatively easy travel distance. Ayr is single staff store and Glasgow is multi staff. I don't like going into the Glasgow store because I can't get peace to look at models without at least one of the staff pouncing on me asking lots of questions and trying to push me into buying certain things.
At one point a staff member looked at what I picked up and said and I quote "you don't want that get this instead" holding out an item that had no relevance to what I was collecting at that time but big surprise cost a lot more. Needless to say I just dropped what I was holding and walked out. You don't tell a customer what they want.
On the other hand Ayr is single staffed. Service couldn't be more different, he's always willing to talk to customers and advise them on ideas to buy especially for those who are just in buying presents and have no idea what the hobby entails. Always happy to answer questions and help those just starting out with Warhammer.
I've never felt any pressure to buy and he's always there to give advice. So for me I'll stick to the single staff store as the standard is service is the best I've seen and I'm including stores from other countries as well as I always visit if I'm somewhere new. I also include Warhammer World in the above, I found the service there good but impersonal.

I'm surprised how sane the takes in this thread are.

I wonder how much the loss of the WH+ voucher had on their online sales. I *never* bought direct unless I had to for an MTO, the two years they provided vouchers I used them (and even ordered a couple times without them). When they cut the vouchers to merch only, I didn't even bother outside of a couple MTO orders.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm surprised how sane the takes in this thread are.

I wonder how much the loss of the WH+ voucher had on their online sales. I *never* bought direct unless I had to for an MTO, the two years they provided vouchers I used them (and even ordered a couple times without them). When they cut the vouchers to merch only, I didn't even bother outside of a couple MTO orders.

Good question. I’m in the same boat. The only time I ordered directly from GW’s website was with the vouchers.

 Nevelon wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm surprised how sane the takes in this thread are.

I wonder how much the loss of the WH+ voucher had on their online sales. I *never* bought direct unless I had to for an MTO, the two years they provided vouchers I used them (and even ordered a couple times without them). When they cut the vouchers to merch only, I didn't even bother outside of a couple MTO orders.

Good question. I’m in the same boat. The only time I ordered directly from GW’s website was with the vouchers.

I have £10 sat on my account from a couple of months ago (gift) but can't find anything I want I can't get cheaper elsewhere tbh, so definitely in this category.

I've bought a few (very few) limited edition things that aren't sold on 3rd party stores from the GW site - mostly a lot of books like the whole Inferno series reprint


But yeah I'd wager your average Dakka user is buying from 3rd parties. Forum users today are a touch more "internet savvy" so we are more likely to hunt down a deal if buying online or buy from our local store.

 Overread wrote:
I've bought a few (very few) limited edition things that aren't sold on 3rd party stores from the GW site - mostly a lot of books like the whole Inferno series reprint


But yeah I'd wager your average Dakka user is buying from 3rd parties. Forum users today are a touch more "internet savvy" so we are more likely to hunt down a deal if buying online or buy from our local store.

I’ve also watched a number of FLGS come and go over the years. If you want a place to push models around that’s not the dining room table, you need to spend money at the local store.

But this is not a cheep hobby, so discounts are also nice.

I tend to mix purchases around between FLGS and online discounters. GW’s webstore is the worst of both worlds. Not only are you not supporting your local store, but also paying full price. It’s pretty much a last resort unless you have something like an exclusive pre-order special, voucher, or only place to get it.

I'm not sure how successful move those 1 person GW stores were tbh. At least here in Finland, I recall the time when the GW store had a couple blokes working there; the store was basically never empty. Now, with the one person store, its a ghost town.. I would never visit it myself if it werent for the free shipping from GW direct, and even when I go there I grab my box and leave ASAP. Back when there was more staff, I even remember swapping (Necormunda) bitz with one of the staff members.. Perhaps they had too much staff, but I feel like dropping to a single staffer was throwing the baby with the bathwater..

As for the figures, all I need to know is that 30K will remain supported for both scales. 40K is a sad hot mess, I will only be going backwards in editions from now on. KT21 is hopefully also being kept around.

Something about having their own stores also does is 'validate' the image of Games Workshop being the only game in town. A lot of people are committed to 40k for literally no other reason than it being the leviathan in the pond and their stores probably go some way to reinforcing that. Most people get into other wargames after getting cold feet about their relationship with 40k, but they're immediately reminded those other games are fighting a dozen other games for a corner of the LFGS, which has probably caused more than a few people to hesitate and not risk playing 'dead games'.

Certainly agreed with Arbitrator. I've also heard over the past couple years that GW is pushing to eliminate the "third space" status of theor stores. They don't really want people to hang out or play there, they want people to come in, buy stuff, and leave rapidly.

That change has been in place for a long while.

Fewer gaming tables, and priority for intro and beginners. In the UK at least, GW Stores as a hub for regular gaming hasn’t been a focus for years now.

I think the 1 person stores do a lot. I think some of the "lack of buzz" is probably the same reason the whole highstreet has a lack of buzz these days in general.

In the end they are on the streets; they are a name people know of and that really helps. When kids mention Warhammer or Space Marines their parents - at least in the UK - are already aware of what that is, where they could get it (even if they don't shop online) and all.

And in the end the GW store staffer only has one product to push - GW product. It's not like a 3rd party game store which might have more reason to push boardgames or card games over wargames and even if they are pushing wargames, they might have multiple different brands. Great for the market, but not GW directly.


One Staffer is harsh on the staffer, though don't forget they also have floating staff who will fill in for sickness/breaks and even though the store still has to make a profit; having the backing of GW behind it means that it can soak a few bad or slower sales periods without worry - whilst a 3rd party might get significant worry if the market takes a downturn or slows down for a few months and suddenly they burn through their savings and their options become more difficult (eg take a loan out to cover and now even when times are better you've got a loan repayment ontop of everything else etc)

GW Stores also don’t have to worry about their stock. It’s all determined and dispatched centrally.

So as a GW Manager, you know you’re getting your new releases, and you’ll be stocking The Greatest Hits. Add the in-store order point, and you have the whole range, warehouse stock allowing, at your finger tips.

FLGS? Less so. If stock just doesn’t sell? That’s a dead asset, and your money tied up in it. Rinse and repeat that over just a few lines, and your business could be at risk. Which in turn can make you risk adverse on carrying new lines. You currently presumably know what your local market does and doesn’t want, so it makes sense to stick to that.

All Finnish FLGS's I know of have switched to selling manga/anime and all sorts of games, from wargames, to card games and family games in addition to having Warhammer stock. Heck, some even have a selection of console games. Trust me, diversity keeps those stores in business, not wargames.

And speaking of the GW stores, if they indeed only want people to pop in, buy and leave, why bother having a medium sized store room at all? Why not just have a shoddy kiosk and a counter where you can pick up your orders (made by an app or whatever)? And just have a storage space behind the counter? Even more cost effective. The current solution just seems dumb and pretentious to me.

That's very true as well and another powerful point - I recall when AoS Dominion wasn't selling super-fast and some 3rd party stores had to sell them at warehouse prices to just shift the stock, get the money back to then invest into other products to sell.

FLGS definitely need to carry a diverse line, no argument there.

But even so, if you sink a few grand into a line or lines which, forever reason, just sit there gathering dust? That can harm your cash flow. And so it’s a further stress a GW store just doesn’t really experience.

And that can include an edition change. Existing edition of game might be the proverbial hot cakes, and so a reliable source of income and customers. But, if a new edition is poorly received? It could damage your business. If your cash is tied up in that stock, you may not be able to afford to pivot to whichever game hoovered up those hobbyists.

It ain’t easy running a FLGS!