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One issue with them is the prevalence of marines. Who’s characters are going to be tough to plink out. Even at D2 and hitting on a 2+ S4 AP-1 is going to take a lot of shots to put one down.

They do have stealth and infiltrate, and a 5 man stick is only 55 points. Tossing one into a list for screening/deployment options/camping might not be a bad idea.

But on paper they are not wowing me. No in-game experience at this time.

I've played four games with the new codex, rangers infiltrate up to an early objective. They either run a secondary (or two) or bait a more expensive unit out. Screening is less of a worry for my list as there's a Sword and Board wraithknight ready to run through ruins.

The precision on them hasn't done anything (yet) but I did have a game where a Judiciar died to shroud runner rifles.

So, as someone who doesn’t own a unit, probably one for the back burner of the eventual shopping list? But, for those who have them in an existing army, they have their uses?


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Mind you….if supported by a War Walker, Vyper and Shroud Runners, they might prove a nasty surprise in the first turn.

Again it would need an “ideal target” to horribly disrupt an opponent’s plans. But I think there may be legs there.

What has gone from the new codex?
The Webway gate isn't there, I notice. What tactics have stopped working?

Fate Dice are gone, which I understand is a pain.

Played my first game using Warhost vs Guard using the scout/stealth army with infantry, cavalry, sentinels and several units of arty (plus a command big tank)
I was just using a mix of units to try out.
After the frustration of dealing with all their units getting cover and bonus saves, I feel a unit or 2 of shroud runners will be essential.
My fire prisms whiffed hard and they really miss the reroll detachment rule. Scorps did well in early game, but don’t have the wounds to last long. Shadow weaver did stop him moving units that got snared, so might include one in each list.
Wraithlord was solid and can see 2 being a staple with a single spirit seer.
I painted up a falcon for my dragons and now realize it’s not good with them unless you need the deep strike. They’re already rerolling hits so don’t need the bonus rule. Better in a serpent and I will look at a different unit for the falcon (even though it’s painted for fire dragons, lol)
I lost the game (there was some horrendous rolling involved, as if my dice knew it was the first game for many units) but some units stood out as winners.
Banshees with Jain Zar and battle focus are so damn fast and cut down both of his cavalry units.

I'm two games in with the new codex.

First game was warhost into blood angels. Banshees were brutal. Jain even more so. Dark reapers being a threat to big stuff again feels good. They definitely needed that. I never managed to use all my agile maneuvers in a given round, but that's partly due to me playing defensively; one of the enemy units had fights first, so it created a weird standoff with Jain where neither of us wanted to charge.

Second game was aspect host into necrons. I didn't find myself using many of the stratagems other than the generic sanctuary in the sky, but the detachment rerolls are pretty potent. Seems like a strong-but-boring option. I think I'll probably end up favoring one of the other detachments that lets me use my units in new ways rather than just making them better at what they're already good at.

Not taking into account Ynnari or Harlequins, as I’ve no personal interest in those?

I don’t think I’m seeing a particularly duff unit in the Codex. There are some I prefer over others, but nothing I’m left with a “what’s the point in you then”.

Whilst Scorpions and Spears being sans Phoenix Lord could’ve put them at a disadvantage, I think both units are still quite attractive. Especially on the Charge, Spears should make pretty short work of tanks and monsters. Scorpions are a welcome Melee Generalist. Not ideal against really heavy infantry, but can still do the job with just a bit of above average rolling.

I’m also pretty impressed with the Exarch weapon options. Again, like units there are some I’ll take over others, but that’s personal taste. About the only one I think is outright duff is the Axe and Pistol for the Fire Dragon. I just don’t think it’ll come in handy, or dissuade an opponent Charging the unit. Even then, that’s just my view on it.

No idea how it stacks up against other Codexes, but I feel like it’s got the tools for us to do ‘orrible fings to the lesser species.

I don't hate the axe on the dragonxarch for the same reason I don't hate the sword on the hawkxarch. You're giving up better shooting options in order to charge something without it resulting in a slap fight.

So after your squadmates do most of the work taking out that tank, you can *also* finish off that weakened unit nearby where a squad without the axe might charge and just end up stuck in combat unable to finish what they started.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I don't hate the axe on the dragonxarch for the same reason I don't hate the sword on the hawkxarch. You're giving up better shooting options in order to charge something without it resulting in a slap fight.

So after your squadmates do most of the work taking out that tank, you can *also* finish off that weakened unit nearby where a squad without the axe might charge and just end up stuck in combat unable to finish what they started.

Melee exarchs might also be worth it to give the PL some backup if they are in the squad. As most of them have some nice CC potential.

Has anyone tried the conclave out of a falcon so you get the re-rolls on their flamer attacks? I plan on playing either this weekend or next and will use them and let people know, but I am wondering thoughts on it.

I think there are very few datasheets that are outright duds. And a lot of the army is just outright good on the data sheet, so I don't feel they need the "do more damage" style detachment buffs. However, outside of warhost, and maybe aspect (as you are probably fielding a lot of those in any general list army) the other detachments feel like you really need to build into them to be good, and I don't have the models for that currently.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yarp.


Turning to Rangers, and I’m somewhat on the fence.

Their guns are….alright, I guess? A squad full of Precision is damned handy for plinking away at characters embedded in squads, thus have a chance of breaking up an opponent’s own synergy, as well as sparing Aspects a horrible HTH kicking.

But they’re one shot each a turn, and only S4 AP-1. And despite the Dam 2, I’m not entirely persuaded they’re pokey enough to be a reliable threat. And the squad doesn’t really bring much else to the table.

How's AP-2 sound? You infiltrate them into upper floors of ruins & enjoy plunging fire.
My own Rangers are used to infiltrate onto objectives for T1, do actions, come on from reserves, etc. Any damage they do is merely a bonus. My Rangers rarely survive the battle, but they almost always prove their worth.

Thoughts on Autarch wayleapers. I have 2 but wondering where they’d shine in their respective units rather than Phoenix lords. I guess I’d have to look at the free strat use and see which one would be best.

ccs wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yarp.


Turning to Rangers, and I’m somewhat on the fence.

Their guns are….alright, I guess? A squad full of Precision is damned handy for plinking away at characters embedded in squads, thus have a chance of breaking up an opponent’s own synergy, as well as sparing Aspects a horrible HTH kicking.

But they’re one shot each a turn, and only S4 AP-1. And despite the Dam 2, I’m not entirely persuaded they’re pokey enough to be a reliable threat. And the squad doesn’t really bring much else to the table.

How's AP-2 sound? You infiltrate them into upper floors of ruins & enjoy plunging fire.
My own Rangers are used to infiltrate onto objectives for T1, do actions, come on from reserves, etc. Any damage they do is merely a bonus. My Rangers rarely survive the battle, but they almost always prove their worth.

How does plunging fire work?


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Done it a Google.

Now…that may well help them. Certainly getting up high, then an assist from a War Walker? That’s AP -3. At that point, I think most characters (well, infantry sized ones) might have serious cause for concern. Still not a slam dunk, open and shut case like. But even I’m on a 5+ to wound, it’s still not going to take a massive bit of luck to drop even W8 characters.

Certainly the benefit outweighs the barely-there risk.

Hmmm.

 bullyboy wrote:
Thoughts on Autarch wayleapers. I have 2 but wondering where they’d shine in their respective units rather than Phoenix lords. I guess I’d have to look at the free strat use and see which one would be best.

I like them with spiders. Melta gun plus some respectable CC punch makes spiders a more allround threat. Being able to reimburse the battle focus token you're likely using on spiders anyway is also a nice bonus. Strats obviously depend on the detachment you're running, but realistically it'll be grenades or overwatch. Use the shrine token to flip the fusion gun hit to a six for some extra fun when using a free overwatch.

Afraid Rangers are my pick for being a dud. I don't think they are "bad" - because yes, infiltrate and taking objectives/doing missions is useful even if they don't kill anything.

But there's no real detachment support for them.

And perhaps more importantly, for 20 more points you could swap the rangers for Striking Scorpions. Who I think are just better. There's maybe some scenario where you really want to save 20 points and its breaking your list - but it feels like a bit of a reach.

The 7" scout move allows for messing with people even more than just Infiltrate on turn 1. The 6 wounds vs 5 and 3+/5++ vs 5+/5++ (to shooting) also probably matters. (Clearly it won't save you from someone is really trying to kill you - but there's only so much you want to dedicate to clearing a 55/75 point squad).
Scorpions are probably a bit swingy - and suffer from being bad into so many things (Terminators, Tanks). But they represent a reasonable threat into T3 stuff 5 S4 AP-1 2 damage sniper shots by contrast feels marginal to anything but maybe Guard.

Rangers do get that extra movement ability, but I feel a D6 is kind of fickle.

Something of note regarding Autarchs. They have the Grenade keyword.Both Autarch types have Path of Command to reduce CP cost by 1.

I ran one with Dragons to the point in one round, they destroyed the remnants of a Kabalite Warrior squad (grenades) and then shot and destroyed two Ravagers. It was surprisingly efficient.

I’d argue the Rangers lack of support is what’s attracting me to a certain degree.

They’re there to do one thing - threaten characters tucked away in squads.

Now, they’re not highly reliable in that role, but I wouldn’t say they outright suck at it. Their works is cut out for them, but they can do it in a single volley with the favour of the dice.

But they’re also something of a distraction. My impression of modern 40K (and absolutely feel free to correct me) is that there’s a necessary reliance on character buffs granted to units. And so a unit, stashed up 6” or more on terrain, may impact my opponent’s decision making. Not in a full on “Here Be Deth” zone of interdiction, but quite likely in a “no sense in tweaking fate’s nose” way.

And it does seem they only need a single decent round of shooting to make their presence felt and have a more tangible “oh im sorry, were you relying on that buff” way.

Immediate example, using about the only thing I can think of due to lack of in-game experience? Capping the Weirboy before he can Da Jump his way into being a colossal pain in the derrière. It’s not going to outright win the game of course, but it will frustrate an opponent’s plans. Spesh if the rest of my army is then freed up to have a wee rampage.

I'm not sure most armies have a "necessary reliance on character buffs". Some want it more than others. Guard for instance will tend to have a lot of "soft characters" for orders.

Not really convinced on others.

There's also just... issues. Unless I'm forgotting some FAQ, Precision still requires you to have LOS to the character. In the case of your Weirdboy in a Boyz unit, its not exactly hard to hide the Weirdboy behind some terrain from the rangers. Doesn't stop the rangers jumping out at some point after the boyz have made a move and having a go - but its probably a bit late by that point to matter that much.

Are the Aeldari character reliant? It feels like all the builds I've seen rely on named heroes to do the heavy lifting.

ccs wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yarp.


Turning to Rangers, and I’m somewhat on the fence.

Their guns are….alright, I guess? A squad full of Precision is damned handy for plinking away at characters embedded in squads, thus have a chance of breaking up an opponent’s own synergy, as well as sparing Aspects a horrible HTH kicking.

But they’re one shot each a turn, and only S4 AP-1. And despite the Dam 2, I’m not entirely persuaded they’re pokey enough to be a reliable threat. And the squad doesn’t really bring much else to the table.

How's AP-2 sound? You infiltrate them into upper floors of ruins & enjoy plunging fire.
My own Rangers are used to infiltrate onto objectives for T1, do actions, come on from reserves, etc. Any damage they do is merely a bonus. My Rangers rarely survive the battle, but they almost always prove their worth.

Yeah, rangers are mostly unchanged from the codex, which is to say they're still one of our best utility units. Between their low price, infiltrate, and reactive move, they make great secondary scorers, bait to lure the enemy into range of a melee squad, or speed bumps/movement blockers.

If you're using Illic (who will presumably be available via Legends soon), they can actually do enough damage to somewhat reliably snipe out most infantry characters. So their damage isn't bad, but their "real" job is to stand in the right place at the right time. There are also war walkers if you really want more AP on them. Or Eldrad for Doom.


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 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Are the Aeldari character reliant? It feels like all the builds I've seen rely on named heroes to do the heavy lifting.

Yes and no. It seems like most of our units (especially aspects) are good enough at their jobs to be useful without characters. However, adding in a character will dramatically change how that unit performs.

Baharroth means that your swooping hawks can deepstrike close enough for a sucker punch pseudo-grenade strat and gives the unit enough extra punch to up the weight class of targets they can reliably kill. Without him, your hawks have to kind of sneak up on foot before diving through a wall if they want to use their grenades, and then they're stuck in that general area instead of being able to reposition with uppy downy rules. (Unless you use a strat on them.)

Warp spiders are reasonably lethal on their own, but adding Lyhkis to them makes the squad way more killy and also turns them into a method for handing out buffs to anything with Lethal Hits or Sustained Hits.

Asurmen turns avengers into guerilla fights instead of forcing them to stand around taking return fire. Jain makes her squad super sonic including letting them jump onto/off of rooftops. Fuegan means you can "hide" your dragons in melee after they blow up a vehicle.

Farseers guarantee you can land an important shot with a bright lance guardian squad, possibly even in overwatch all while making a nearby friend hit on 2+. Autarchs open up a bag of tricks, letting their squad move after shooting, or throw a grenade, or overwatch, etc. for free each turn while also making agile maneuvers more reliable. Autarchs can also actually pack a punch with the right build meaning they might make a shooty unit double as a melee unit in a pinch. Spirit seers aren't mandatory, but they make a wall of wraiths way more intimidating to deal with because you know some of your damage is going to get undone every turn.

I'd say our characters are in a really good place right now. They're not mandatory for our squads to do their jobs (no more mandatory Doomseer to make Banshees win fights in melee), but they all seem worth their points. Mostly they change how a unit behaves rather than just being an extra killy beatstick (with some exceptions) which means you're not just figuring out whether they're points efficient or not in terms of raw lethality.

What I’m taking away at the moment is that the Codex makes any number of lists viable. And within those lists, we’re not necessarily tied to certain strategies.

Sure, Aspects being Aspects they really only do One Weird Trick each. And that’s fine by me. But with non-Aspect support, we can get them to overperform. Importantly? I don’t think any unit needs the various buffs and tricks to really work. You’ll get the best results that way of course, but it means we don’t have to really buddy up units at the list building stage, allowing us a fluidity on the field, and arguably making our synergy kinda hard to break, as we needn’t be reliable on a chain of events.

Main example I can think of is War Walker, Vyper and Swooping Hawks. War Walker provides some heft, and grants the Hawks an invaluable -1 AP, and the Vyper denies the enemy cover. Between the three of them, infantry should be in for a pretty rough time. And in return, the Swooping Hawks are well placed to prevent the Vyper and War Walker from being swamped. But all three are quite capable in their own right.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What I’m taking away at the moment is that the Codex makes any number of lists viable. And within those lists, we’re not necessarily tied to certain strategies.

Main example I can think of is War Walker, Vyper and Swooping Hawks. War Walker provides some heft, and grants the Hawks an invaluable -1 AP, and the Vyper denies the enemy cover. Between the three of them, infantry should be in for a pretty rough time. And in return, the Swooping Hawks are well placed to prevent the Vyper and War Walker from being swamped. But all three are quite capable in their own right.

You need to swap the Vyper for shroud runners. Vyper makes enemy -1 to hit while runners strip cover.
However, your point still stands, and the shroud runners scatter lasers really lend more fire to the hawks.

It’s also reassuring to know that should something catastrophic happen in setting up such a combo? We’re still likely to be killing a bunch of stuff all the same.

Painted my 3 shroud runners and a warwalker today for a game tomorrow. Will see how they perform.
Trying out aspect host but don’t have all the aspects I want painted yet. Will still be running Avengers, Scorpions, Banshees, Reapers and Dragons.
Also going to give Maugan Ra a run (just cause he is newly painted)

I lost my sniper character :( so she going back to blackstone fortress.

Well, second game with my Eldar, and although we didn’t get to finish, there was little chance of me catching up. So 0-2 so far with the new elves. This time was vs Bullyboyz, just got overwhelmed at the objectives.
Amazing how often I’m missing with my brightlances, really miss the rerolls.
So far my dragons have been really disappointing so need to change up the way I’m playing them (deep strike out of falcon).
Lots of thinking (and practice to do)


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Also, what are people planning for their back line? I’ve been using guardians last 2 games but wondering if I should choose something cheaper, either rangers, corsairs or a small aspect unit (avengers).
What are you guys running?


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And as a final question, what are people putting in their Falcons? It seems that Dragons are a waste as their rules clash with the falcons rules. Reapers? Avengers? Warlock Conclave?

Noob question I can’t easily answer for myself?

Enemy characters, what are their Wounds like these days?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Noob question I can’t easily answer for myself?

Enemy characters, what are their Wounds like these days?

Average of about 5.

I've found it to be around 5 for squishy minor characters, and 6+ for bosses.