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Unfortunately, Space Marines have proven again and again that this isn't just a chicken and egg situation. No matter how much love other factions get, the Space Marines always win.

For example, back in 5th-6th edition the Dark Eldar got essentially a shiny new faction rebuilt from scratch, and for a while had certainly the most up-to-date range in the whole game.

Did it matter? Ultimately, not really. Space Marines kept selling way more than the Dark Eldar did, and so the Dark Eldar have languished, still stuck with mostly those same 5th-6th edition models all the way to the present day.

Seriously competing for sales with space marines is a rough ask of a faction incapable of playing the hero or even the anti-hero due to how cartoonishly and viscerally evil it is, though.

They're still around, which isn't too shabby for something even more specialised than single-craftworld lists.

Right, but it shows well how far the bar is here.

Not only did it fail to match Space Marines, they failed to such an extent that the range has received very few releases in the fourteen years following.

There’s an ongoing DE thread in 40K General.

In that, I worked out that since their original launch all those years ago, when I was actually young? Dark Eldar have retained something like 3 New Units. And they’ve not had many more new added.

Those not available in 3rd currently still available are the two fliers and the Cronos.

Sure. They’ve had other units (Grotesques when Wracks filled the original slot, variant beasties for the Beastmaster, court of the Archon, the “veteran” Kabalite and Wych units). But they’ve come and ultimately gone.

28 years. 28 years and only 3 new units that stuck around. 3.

Tau (15) and Necrons (18 ors so) are close stablemates, having properly originated in 3rd. And they’ve gained and retained a ridiculous amount in comparison.

So it’s hard to feel like Dark Eldar have had anything but the crappy end of the stick.

They have absolutely been neglected, but the point is that they don't represent a glorious goldmine that GW has squandered. If something makes money, GW notices, because money is ultimately what the whole point of all this is.

That does not mean they don't "deserve" updates. But I think many are so used to viewing things from the capitalist point of view that they cannot readily separate profit from any other form of value or appeal. I think Dark Eldar could stand to be thrown a bone. Not because they represent an untapped profit wellspring, but rather because it's about time, and I don't think they'd sell -so- badly it'd pose any sort of financial problem to support them.

As an aside, the above point of view thing I feel like I see all the time in negativity too. People see something they don't like, but the criticism they voice is "this will not sell" because it feels like an attack with weight, and they don't know how else to express their personal taste other than try to make it objective. Then, if it does sell well regardless, they end up not really knowing what to say about it and usually just falling silent.

To reuse an analogy?

If they don’t get new toys, they don’t get new players. And for DE, they’ve had some previous additions later removed entirely. Which again, doesn’t make them terribly appealing. Because who knows what might be dropped in the next Codex? And for those who’ve played them for years, where’s the temptation to add more coming from? No new units, no new potential combos. Where are the sales then?

It’s kind of like being the overlooked employee. The one simply expected to get on with the day job, and never given an opportunity, only to be criticised at your annual review for Only Doing The Day Job, despite the fact you’ve put your name in the ring time and time again for other duties to try and build your career.

If you’re never given the chance? It’s unfair and super lame for people to write you off.

Yes. This is (now thankfully past) personal experience. Yes I remain bitter. Yes I hope those bosses get caught in a lengthy traffic jam and end up besmirching their pantaloons, having inadvisably had a Prawn Curry before setting off.

The number of additional options we've lost really is a big part of the issue, I think. Even with just the stuff we have now, the army doesn't feel like it's missing *that man* common roles. I'd go so far as to say that the 5th edition codex felt pretty fleshed out, and that's despite it being the book that took away our mounted HQ options. (Other than Baron Bathonyx obviously.)

I don't think drukhari need a dozen new/refrshed kits, but frequently losing some of the options we *do* have access to stings.

If you were playing in 5th, then losing your mounted HQs that you lovingly converted stank. If you were playing in 7th, losing most of your special characters (many of whom didn't have generic counterparts) stank. If you were playing in 8th, losing your true born stank. (I don't think many people actually missed blood brides much, but it would've been nice to do something interesting with them instead of just erasing them.) If you were playing in 10th, suddenly losing the beast packs and grotesques and court units that had been options since at least 5th edition (longer for grotesques and sorta beasts) stank. Like, I wasn't wild about GW taking away assault marines, but at least they seemed to be getting sent to legends because of the sheer volume of other kits/units that fill the same role.

Also? It’s not as if those options were replaced with something.

So sure, not everyone liked losing the generic Orks and Buggies. But they still got a bunch of new, more specialised Buggies.

Actually, not counting Special Characters?

Grotesques (the big lads), Three flavours of Beasts and their Master, character options, Court of the Archon? That’s more things lost than they’ve retained since 1998.

The poppy end of the stick is looking poopier and poopier.

Yes, a natural counter is they’ve enjoyed mass Plasticification, and that’s always lovely. It is far and away my preferred material. But then…every other army has enjoyed the same (particularly in the past 6 or so years), and got loads of lovely new kits.

So, in summary? There’s a perfect storm of range neglect. So if the range is struggling? We can see reasons why.

Come, join us here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/818421.page#11812985 for some more constructive discussion.

Tyran wrote:
Thematically there is a significant difference between Black Templars, Space Wolves and World Eaters.
Sure in gaming terms they are similar to the point of being the same, but the models and lore are quite different.

So the question becomes what new themes you can explore with Chaos Xenos? And no, "Chaos is a treat to all" is not a valid theme to make a faction as it is basically a negative theme.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Ah, but see, I don't think SW and BT deserve/need to be in split up across three books, and my preference would have been to just give Death Guard ways to Nurglify vanilla CSM units instead of giving them bespoke warmachines and such. So regardless of what GW would do, I personally don't like the idea of making a new faction/book/splat when you can represent a concept well enough with the existing rules for that faction instead.

Iracundus wrote:
My personal beef is the double standard in that SM (and CSM) get seperate factions/books but those of non-human factions don't. There was the start of an attempt with the Iyanden supplement and Harlequins but GW seems to have then walked that back.

Think about it:

They wear red and white. They use fast vehicles. They are all about honor and engage in blood rituals which others may view as barbaric that involve the drinking of blood and making vows.

Who am I referring to? Blood Angels or Saim-hann?

If one deserves a separate book of their own, then so does the other.

We aren't arguing apples and apples. My comment to Wyldhunt was directed at the examples given about why chaos xenos 'wouldn't' be different enough in the game. Arguing theme is separate.

Then the argument of splitters and lumpers (to use paleontological terms) is also separate - should there be fewer codex splits or more?


But in all this the starting point for me is - equal treatment. It doesn't matter whether you're discussing the theme or gameplay of chaos tau, or whether tau septs should exist as separate codex supplements or not.

What position are you starting from?

I'm starting from what actually exists - GW creates codex supplements, 40k depicts chaos as affecting all factions, GW invents a new units, themes and models for a decided faction out of nothing (cf every chaos cult codex). Ergo, chaos tau that are both unique in gameplay and in theme and tau sept supplements are all consistent with GW's currently evinced design methodology and 40k metaphysics.

The only factor at play is perceived monetary return, not creativity, internal logic, or design. And given we aren't discussing monetary return, it's not a relevant point in the qualitative discussion of chaos eldar , or any chaos xenos.

If you want to argue against supplements that's fine, but you are arguing against GW's currently executed design style.


I'm ok either way, so long as all factions are receiving equal treatment and thus the consumer is presented with actually equally valuable product lines, rather than platinum marines, gold plated imperium and chaos, silver aeldari and bronze everyone else. Or failing that, GW actually just admit their design strategy to their customer, that they have a tiered preference system for support and content so if you are ok with getting less of everything go bronze. They won't charge you less though. It's an honour to purchase the factions that get no support, not books, no gubbinz no ancillary materials because marines need punching bags.

I am generally for more supplements than fewer.

However GW has this policy of needing new models to go with new supplements. Not a policy I really agree with but it is what it is.

Given that is what there is to work with, I would prefer GW focus on supplements that expand the background in new directions rather than relatively predictable versions of the same. That is why for example I would prefer Exodites or Ynnari or Harlequins over "Chaos (xenos race)". We know the Big Four Chaos gods and their general mode of operation. We know Khorne makes followers bloodthirsty, develop a fashion sense for skulls, and go for straight melee with firepower generally being restricted to close range dakka type weapons for indiscriminate killing. We know Nurgle tends to bloat followers with disease and they become paradoxically more resilient even while they rot and fall apart. And so on. So I don't see Chaos (insert xenos) or Chaos Guard adding a whole lot gameplay-wise or in terms of background compared to expanding into new territory.

If one really wanted to Chaos influence any existing xenos faction, I would use a template for each Chaos god and a list of thematically appropriate gifts that could be applied to the existing statline. Yes, that means a Khorne Tau might be still rather pathetic in close combat despite their gifts since they are not very naturally adept at it in the first place.

GW has already sort of done this with the Chaos Spawn statlines in the latest god aligned CSM supplements. The World Eater one has more Strength IIRC while the Emperor's Children one is quicker, while the Death Guard one explodes messily on death etc.

One of the 40k rulebooks had pictures of various sorts of eldar or at least symbols for them, including Chaos Eldar.