Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They were isolationists, what one might term an inward perfectionist species that focused on improving itself and generally ignoring the wider galaxy.

Yeah we don't know they if the ate babies or had elaborate torture dungeons. But we do know about their science and art, perfecting genetics through set societal roles and an intense ability to create beautiful objects so that even the artificial islands they lived on were works of art to human eyes.

Assuming they did terrible things because humanity does terrible things is a fallacy.
They're not morally good because the extreme genetic modifications they made were enacted even as the Emperor's Children were at war with them, but that's a human point of view.
For a species that values attaining perfection without outside interference, the sacrifice of hundreds on the alter of science to safeguard their culture and species might not even be a true consideration.

As someone who will absolutely parrot the opinion that its really hard to get people to view the Imperium as evil when the opposition are cartoonish villains, I will say that I don't think there's anything wrong with Chaos in 40k. They're not sympathetic, but the ideology is pretty easy to comprehend.

Chaos is just a pyramid scheme. Sure, its societies are cruel, but what does that matter to you? You're better. You're stronger and when your superiority is acknowledged, you'll be standing atop that pile of misery free to indulge in whatever your heart desires. You will have everything you want and be functionally immortal to have it for all time. That's not the reality, but its a good enough dream that's carried plenty of societies to this point and doesn't show any signs of slowing down.

The main issue is that Chaos doesn't really seem to pass the Bechdel test. How many stories have two members of Chaos discuss something that isn't about destroying the Imperium? They need a more independent relationship tree with other elements of the setting so that their goals of spreading influence and amassing power aren't entirely filtered through the lens of "to destroy the Imperium".

So, no, I don't think there's anything wrong with Chaos and they are the way they are because its honestly way cooler than some kind of reasonable political opposition to the Imperium. They accomplish a LOT for the setting, but if your goal is make the Imperium the villains... that is not something they do. I just don't think at any point that's something they were ever designed to do.

No. I’m assuming they may well have dome horrific things, because that’s what Chaos Worship eventually drives you to do.

We don’t and can’t now know how far down the path the Laer were.

But we do know the Chaos Gods are fickle. They demand ever more intensive acts of worship to maintain their favour.

Again, we can look back to The Old World for some examples of that. Specifically the Fimir, Dragon Ogres and Beastmen. All societies/species dedicated to Chaos in one form or another. All just as damned as the next for it,

The Fimir are of particular interest, having been seemingly largely cast aside by the Gods, left to scrape out a pretty wretched existence ever since.

If it was possible to have a long term successful Chaos Worshipping society? Where are they? Why haven’t the Eldar, being the longest running and formerly most successful high civilisation done it? Especially now.

If any extant species has been around long enough to master Chaos, even in a comparatively minor way so it’s all upside? Why didn’t the Eldar?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If any extant species has been around long enough to master Chaos, even in a comparatively minor way so it’s all upside? Why didn’t the Eldar?

The fall of the eldar and slaanesh in general are based around the central principle that the chaos gods exist to grow.
They want more of what makes themselves strong, it is all excess of one kind or another - khorne can never have too many skulls for his throne or enough blood spilt in his name, there is no concept of 'enough', only 'more'. They are living embodiments of the energies that form them.

Mastery of chaos is going downhill on a bicycle in an airless void. There is no maximum speed, only the speed at which you fall off.

Not necessarily that fast if you don’t dedicate to a specific god. But then you need to contend with godly jealousies, and perhaps one or more deciding if they can’t have you personally, it’s Stuipid Squishy Mortal Time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Been thinking on the species/societies which appeared to have successful chaos worshipping with limited downside.

And we never exactly meet them for long, do we? The Interex and Laer don’t last terribly long.

Huh? The Interex weren't Chaos worshipping. They were devoted to fighting Chaos. They just weren't censoring information about Chaos like the Imperium does.

Kinebrach must’ve been at one point, given what they made.

I know they weren’t allowed weapons any more. Or at least, so we’re told.

Kinebrach are a species, and at some point that species have had a run-in with Chaos. Then they fought a war with the Interex, the Interex defeated them, and they were then invited to join the Interex empire.

Anything beyond that is fanon. The book doesn't go -that- much into detail beyond showing us that the Interex are both vehemently opposed to Chaos, aware of its nature (keeping Chaos-related devices in storage, under guard), and able to detect its presence from various clues (they correctly deduced that Horus had brought Chaos with him - Erebus was accompanying him at that time).

The main reason I want some more ambiguity about Chaos is just to throw Chaos fans a bone when engaging in inter-faction bragging. I've seen it play out a bunch of times on Reddit and so on that chaos players get slapped down by the overwhelming numbers of Imperium stans who are able to quote chapter and verse from "canon" sources to prove that Chaos is in the wrong, which rather takes the fun away from other factions in the setting.

I mean, I suppose at least Chaos gets taken seriously enough to get that sort of response, Xenos is generally just a way for Imperial factions to kill time before the True Threat of Chaos arrives. But since we don't get a huge volume of stuff written with Xenos as the protagonists, what we have is generally alright in my view. The Heresy provided us with loads of Chaos POV and it wasn't pretty.

 Da Boss wrote:
The main reason I want some more ambiguity about Chaos is just to throw Chaos fans a bone when engaging in inter-faction bragging. I've seen it play out a bunch of times on Reddit and so on that chaos players get slapped down by the overwhelming numbers of Imperium stans who are able to quote chapter and verse from "canon" sources to prove that Chaos is in the wrong, which rather takes the fun away from other factions in the setting.

I mean, I suppose at least Chaos gets taken seriously enough to get that sort of response, Xenos is generally just a way for Imperial factions to kill time before the True Threat of Chaos arrives. But since we don't get a huge volume of stuff written with Xenos as the protagonists, what we have is generally alright in my view. The Heresy provided us with loads of Chaos POV and it wasn't pretty.

I was actually thinking why I read this, it’s sort of a problem with the perception that people have that the imperial factions are good. Or against a foe so bad they are justified. Even if there is points where it’s shown they’re not, it often feels they are anyway.

You see it enough in conversation where it seems people will basically consider some of the space marines good guys, and I wonder if it’s since they are too much a power fantasy now to really be considered the bad guys. One thing I enjoyed about space marine 2 is how much they portray the marines as quite a horrible organisation. But I can see how people would misunderstand that when it’s not really spelled out.
But like, even a chapter like the ultramarines feel like they are only a few steps off doing the worst imaginable. But if people can still see that and think, well could be worse I think something is getting lost.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No. I’m assuming they may well have dome horrific things, because that’s what Chaos Worship eventually drives you to do.

We don’t and can’t now know how far down the path the Laer were.

But we do know the Chaos Gods are fickle. They demand ever more intensive acts of worship to maintain their favour.

Again, we can look back to The Old World for some examples of that. Specifically the Fimir, Dragon Ogres and Beastmen. All societies/species dedicated to Chaos in one form or another. All just as damned as the next for it,

The Fimir are of particular interest, having been seemingly largely cast aside by the Gods, left to scrape out a pretty wretched existence ever since.

If it was possible to have a long term successful Chaos Worshipping society? Where are they? Why haven’t the Eldar, being the longest running and formerly most successful high civilisation done it? Especially now.

If any extant species has been around long enough to master Chaos, even in a comparatively minor way so it’s all upside? Why didn’t the Eldar?

Successful (and truly horrible) Chaos worshiping society - the Skaven - they only grow in power and arguably its not their worship of Chaos that foils their plans but their own racial personality - now could argue that this is chaotic but if the Skaven worshiped something else - would they be any different?

The other one, arguably is humanity - there are various successful Chaos worship ping societies in AOS - even a Khornate one that Neferaya seeks to destroy.

 Da Boss wrote:
The main reason I want some more ambiguity about Chaos is just to throw Chaos fans a bone when engaging in inter-faction bragging. I've seen it play out a bunch of times on Reddit and so on that chaos players get slapped down by the overwhelming numbers of Imperium stans who are able to quote chapter and verse from "canon" sources to prove that Chaos is in the wrong, which rather takes the fun away from other factions in the setting.

The whole point of Chaos is that it highlights the failure of the Imperial system. Humanity is slowly maturing into a fully psychic species and needs careful guidance through this early period to stay stable but the Imperium is simply not equipped to provide that because its main approach is insane dogma and ruthless exploitation (whenever neglect isn't on the menu). The ambiguity in Chaos is less wether the gods and daemons are good or whatever and more the tragedy that the Imperium created this situation and will continue to do so.

I like Chaos because they get alot of funky metal album cover stuff so you get to have robots and demons and lasers and chainsaw axes all at once. It's a lot of fun to model! The tragic and/or foolish fall of the traitor legions add a little wistfulness to the whole affair, a little innate "what if" that gives a minimal dash of complexity to a set of factions mostly harder to relate to than orks.


Ultimately the problem with writing Chaos is that the Imperium and their space marines aren't properly villainised.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Successful (and truly horrible) Chaos worshiping society - the Skaven - they only grow in power and arguably its not their worship of Chaos that foils their plans but their own racial personality - now could argue that this is chaotic but if the Skaven worshiped something else - would they be any different?

The other one, arguably is humanity - there are various successful Chaos worship ping societies in AOS - even a Khornate one that Neferaya seeks to destroy.

Fair points.

However, Skaven are exceptional here. They are, if the legends of their origins are true? A singular species of Beastmen dedicated to a most unusual god. Formerly a minor deity scratching around the periphery, but now absolutely one of the big boys.

The problem for the Skaven here? Is like all Beastmen, they’ve No Choice. And inwardly, their god isn’t especially malevolent, after a fashion. The Great Horned Rat loves his children as a species, just not at all as individuals.

The societies of the other four in the Mortal Realms? I’m happy to take your word for it, as I’m not as well read as I should be to argue otherwise

Sorry, I appreciate that last comment might’ve come across passive aggressive. Rest assured it’s not meant to.

Chaos in general is vastly better written in Age of Sigmar, given incredible nuance and variety, not least thanks to Warcry which in its first edition decided to explore a myriad of Chaotic subcultures and cults.

Because the majority of humanity lives under the rule of Chaos in AoS, it reaches a kind of stability you don't really see in the other settings, not even in WHFB with its relatively reasonable southern Norscans.

Chaos can be as bad as in the other settings, especially if you run into the more powerful and fanatical armies, but the average Darkoath tribe isn't really that evil.

Sure, they're not "good" - they carry out ritual sacrifices because it's what one does, it's just how things are - but they don't revel in it, it's just a distant fact of life, sort of like how people you might run into on the street IRL will look at you like a monster for eating a dog but be happy eating a pig.

I heartily recommend the novel Godeater's Son for anyone who wants to read probably the best depiction I've seen of Chaos in Warhammer. It has Chaos at its worst, but it's not the focus. It explains the why and the how in an actually human way, drastically unlike 40k's usual rationale of "my space daddy neglected me so I want to burn the galaxy now" (no offence, I love CSM too, but even masterful writers like ADB have to give it their all to give them even the slightest narrative depth).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Successful (and truly horrible) Chaos worshiping society - the Skaven - they only grow in power and arguably its not their worship of Chaos that foils their plans but their own racial personality - now could argue that this is chaotic but if the Skaven worshiped something else - would they be any different?

The other one, arguably is humanity - there are various successful Chaos worship ping societies in AOS - even a Khornate one that Neferaya seeks to destroy.

Fair points.

However, Skaven are exceptional here. They are, if the legends of their origins are true? A singular species of Beastmen dedicated to a most unusual god. Formerly a minor deity scratching around the periphery, but now absolutely one of the big boys.

The problem for the Skaven here? Is like all Beastmen, they’ve No Choice. And inwardly, their god isn’t especially malevolent, after a fashion. The Great Horned Rat loves his children as a species, just not at all as individuals.

The societies of the other four in the Mortal Realms? I’m happy to take your word for it, as I’m not as well read as I should be to argue otherwise

Sorry, I appreciate that last comment might’ve come across passive aggressive. Rest assured it’s not meant to.

Fair enough although I would say the Great Horned Rat is probably the most malevolent and unforgiving Chaos deity and most stingy with his "rewards" - he does not really give out much of anything I have never seen any signs of love - such as you get in a twisted way with Nurgle in general or favoured servants of other gods -

Skaven worship is less based on true reverence and more from a mind-blasting terror seeded on a spiritual level

.

The "afterlife" of the Skaven (https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deepengnaw ) is as bad or worse than what they endure in their mortal life.

As mentioned in post above - Godeater's Son is really well done IMO - especially showing the darker side of the "good guys of Sigmar" which also appear in other lore and fits with the darker side of the Empire of fantasy.

Another thriving Chaos human society is The Most Suppurating and Blightsome Order of the Fly, https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Fly - a Nurgle version of the knights of the round table

One of the central tenets is Clarity. This they see as Nurgle’s gift to his chosen so that they may see the world as it is, stripped bare of desire and hope, leaving only a beautiful despair. The members of the Order are thus able to find comfort in surrender, joy even love in acceptance, at the heart of all endings, and finally serenity at the end of all things. It is this serenity which they seek to impart to what they call the ignorant and the savage

Their home is known to the servants of Order as the Blighted Duchies. The order is similarly known as fallen knights, indeed Sir Roggen of the Order of the Furrow calls them Monsters and fools in service to daemons. He does also note that that they retain elements of their ancient honour

originally another great Josh Reynolds creation they have appeared in various places including at least one Battletome.

IDK, the Chaos Dwarfs / Helsmiths seem pretty successful...