Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Reminder that the very premise of the thread is about the theoretical removal of a mechanic, points. It's in the thread title and first sentence of the OP.

And a reminder that throughout the thread those that like PL have not said points should be removed. The consensus seems to be that most people on the PL side prefer having both systems.

The thread could have started from a more neutral position. "I'm just asking questions, man." Isn't neutral when the question itself is leading. A question in the same format, but about a different subject, could be seen as highly offensive/problematic.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Reminder that the very premise of the thread is about the theoretical removal of a mechanic, points. It's in the thread title and first sentence of the OP.

And a reminder that throughout the thread those that like PL have not said points should be removed. The consensus seems to be that most people on the PL side prefer having both systems.

The thread could have started from a more neutral position. "I'm just asking questions, man." Isn't neutral when the question itself is leading. A question in the same format, but about a different subject, could be seen as highly offensive/problematic.

And Fezzik's not always a darling good-faith angel poster either. From his OP and comments, it's pretty clear what he was going for.

From OP:

"Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely? Because I'll be honest, I don't think it would stop the competitive scene, and frankly, that's the only leg propping up this horse these days."

 Insectum7 wrote:
From OP:

"Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely? Because I'll be honest, I don't think it would stop the competitive scene, and frankly, that's the only leg propping up this horse these days."

We all know what the OP was and I can’t comment for fezziks intentions with his wording but my post stands. There isn’t any consensus from the people who regularly use power levels that they want rid of points. So don’t worry you guys aren’t in any danger here.

Unfortunately, whatever the pro-PL people may themselves believe, GW is seeing the popularity of PL and concluding that points probably aren't worth the effort (hence the "points are flat for the unit no matter what options you take" proliferation lately).

Whether or not that's a bad thing is up for debate; generally I think making game design decisions to feed the majority popular opinion leads to a worse game design, even if it leads to a more popular game.

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
From OP:

"Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely? Because I'll be honest, I don't think it would stop the competitive scene, and frankly, that's the only leg propping up this horse these days."

We all know what the OP was and I can’t comment for fezziks intentions with his wording but my post stands. There isn’t any consensus from the people who regularly use power levels that they want rid of points. So don’t worry you guys aren’t in any danger here.

Acknowledged, but the thread title is what it is and the OP reads as it does.

 Jidmah wrote:
As long as people aren't selecting models and upgrades for efficiency reasons, points add nothing to the game and just overcomplicate list building.

As soon as at least one player is optimizing weapon loadouts, points are mandatory to have a fair game.

The reason why this thread is being discussed so passionately is because some people simply fail to grasp the concept of building a list motivated by something other that maximizing their chances of winning.

Get off it, dude. We just want a system that doesn't create situations like the difference between 6 tactical marines vs. 10 tactical marines; a massive gulf in power, the same in terms of PL. It's about a *fair* game, not winning all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:


You ableist donkey-cave

As I stated earlier in this very thread:

I play the game with kids sometimes. PL is really less energy intensive, I don't need to flip pages, it's right there, easy peasy. I don't care about the points per kill of whatever. Points change constantly, the Power Ratings update much less frequently.
I'm in constant pain.
I can't keep solid focus too long.
There's no solutions for that.

It's not about specific disabilities, I referenced dyscalculia as an example.

There are many disabilities (including chronic conditions) that make 40k difficult to play. I'm frequently in so much pain I forget which army I'm playing.

The Core Rules, Open Play, and by extension Power Levels, make the game playable for many people.

We literally play using the free Core Rules (including the basic terrain rule), published Open Play content, codecs/indexes, and Theaters of War, that's about it. If there's the desire and energy for multiple games in a day, we also use the CA18 battle honours/custom character rules.
Sometimes we use CPs and strats, but that's rarer than using the CA18 stuff.

Uh huh. Try not opening with insults and attacks next time.

Y'all need a damn hobby.

 Blndmage wrote:
Disabled players get forgotten about constantly. We're not edge cases, or an insignificant number ~20% of Canadians (~25% of Americans) are disabled.

If you don't understand why that specific response to my question is ableist, I'd suggest talking with disabled 40k players you know. And if you say "I don't know any"...think about that for a bit.

I have ADHD. I literally have a neurodevelopmental disability. I asked about dyscalculia because it's a disability that would strongly indicate that PL would be of benefit to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
Mike drop post from smudge. End of.

Well I'm glad I have that well-known liar blocked :-D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
Hecatons comment is ableist i suppose because why does he need to know of blindmage suffers with anything to understand that there are people there who and disabilities that impact their hobby experience. I can’t speak for blindmage but that’s my understanding. Does Blindmage having a specific disability make his comments more or less valid. It doesn’t actually make any difference.

I mean potentially, yeah. Dyscalculia would be one that makes his opinion on PL *very* valid.

Also see my point about how I have a neurodevelopmental disability as well.

I wholeheartedly reject the idea that someone can claim a disability, and then it becomes morally wrong to argue against them. That's an untenable idea. The reason it needs to be brought up is because "I have a disability => PL is required" doesn't follow from the premises, so it's worth interrogating further.

Lol. Mic drop Hecaton.

Can we all just agree to keep PL and points, and then just end the thread?

Dai wrote:
Exactly its obnoxious debate bro "explain to me why you like this, ill wait" crap. That sort of personality may fly on reddit but in the real world (or non toxic communities) youll be rightly told to bore off.

That's literally what Fezzik opened the thread with...

Thank you Sgt_Smudge and others.

*Deep breath*

Ok, let's get to this then.

Folks want me to give a rundown of my disabilities, to prove that my case is valid?

Metal health:
- we are neurodivergent, we're autistic, as have DID thanks to a buttload of childhood trauma (don't worry, it get better). This means we dissociate, and /or have others front mid game. We have a large number of Littles who have shown interest in playing. Some of my headmates have dyscalculia.

- much of our trauma comes from a childhood in the 80's with disabilities. I've had some of these same invalidating tactics used against us our whole lives.

- extreme depression and suicidal thoughts.

- due to my chronic pain(see next section),I have very limited energy to dedicate to playing, if I do play 40k, it's probably the sole things I do that day.

Physical health:

- as mentioned, we have chronic pain, to the point of passing out between each of these points (let alone while playing). This makes playing 40k very difficult already.

- we're dependent on a mobility scooter to get around. We only have range to reach the tiny GW store in our town, Wich has virtually no scene, as the two LFGSs have cornered the play space.

- we're terminally ill with blood cancer. We've outlived 3drs, we're given a prognosis of 20yrs, then 7-10. It's been 18. By all rights I should be dead, again.

- I say again, because we've died at least twice (clinical death) once as an infant and again at 2. We've been chronically hospitalized our entire life. We spent more than half of kindergarten and grades 1-3 in hospital, usually in an oxygen tent (they don't exist anymore, feel free to look them up).

- visual impairment. Legally blind without glasses, which we've been wearing since we were 6 months old (adjusted).

---

Are we disabled enough yet?
Do we somehow now have a right to play the game, FOLLOWING THE fething RULES, without needing to justify why we find it preferable?
Or should we just stop playing? Or more specifically, stop posting on here, because this always happened when we talk about how much we enjoy playing the game with PL and Open Play,as opposed to points and Matched Play? We've tried all kinds of combinations.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
From OP:

"Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely? Because I'll be honest, I don't think it would stop the competitive scene, and frankly, that's the only leg propping up this horse these days."

We all know what the OP was and I can’t comment for fezziks intentions with his wording but my post stands. There isn’t any consensus from the people who regularly use power levels that they want rid of points. So don’t worry you guys aren’t in any danger here.

Acknowledged, but the thread title is what it is and the OP reads as it does.

Ok. Good.

Question: is there any other subject that gets this kind of "I ENJOY THIS YOU CANT TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME THATS RUDE AND INVALIDATING AND ABLEIST" reaction? Like, here's some threads on removing mechanics from the game:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805658.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/804347.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805679.page

All three of these threads contain people arguing different sides on the merits of those particular rules but none of them have this weird thing where changing a game mechanic is invalidating someone's experiences and a personal attack on them. Why does PL get this reaction where other mechanics don't? Why do "PL players" make it a part of their identity in a way that "AoC players" or "vehicles with AV and facings" players don't?

Hecaton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Disabled players get forgotten about constantly. We're not edge cases, or an insignificant number ~20% of Canadians (~25% of Americans) are disabled.

If you don't understand why that specific response to my question is ableist, I'd suggest talking with disabled 40k players you know. And if you say "I don't know any"...think about that for a bit.

I have ADHD. I literally have a neurodevelopmental disability. I asked about dyscalculia because it's a disability that would strongly indicate that PL would be of benefit to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
Mike drop post from smudge. End of.

Well I'm glad I have that well-known liar blocked :-D


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
Hecatons comment is ableist i suppose because why does he need to know of blindmage suffers with anything to understand that there are people there who and disabilities that impact their hobby experience. I can’t speak for blindmage but that’s my understanding. Does Blindmage having a specific disability make his comments more or less valid. It doesn’t actually make any difference.

I mean potentially, yeah. Dyscalculia would be one that makes his opinion on PL *very* valid.

Also see my point about how I have a neurodevelopmental disability as well.

I wholeheartedly reject the idea that someone can claim a disability, and then it becomes morally wrong to argue against them. That's an untenable idea. The reason it needs to be brought up is because "I have a disability => PL is required" doesn't follow from the premises, so it's worth interrogating further.

No one has said that you can’t argue against anyone with a disability. It’s how you go about that argument that matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Lol. Mic drop Hecaton.

Can we all just agree to keep PL and points, and then just end the thread?

Don’t really see a Mike drop for hecaton there, just his usual stuff.

As for agreeing to have both systems, that’s what we have been saying for 21 pages.

 Blndmage wrote:
Thank you Sgt_Smudge and others.

*Deep breath*

Ok, let's get to this then.

Folks want me to give a rundown of my disabilities, to prove that my case is valid?

Metal health:
- we are neurodivergent, we're autistic, as have DID thanks to a buttload of childhood trauma (don't worry, it get better). This means we dissociate, and /or have others front mid game. We have a large number of Littles who have shown interest in playing. Some of my headmates have dyscalculia.

- much of our trauma comes from a childhood in the 80's with disabilities. I've had some of these same invalidating tactics used against us our whole lives.

- extreme depression and suicidal thoughts.

- due to my chronic pain(see next section),I have very limited energy to dedicate to playing, if I do play 40k, it's probably the sole things I do that day.

Physical health:

- as mentioned, we have chronic pain, to the point of passing out between each of these points (let alone while playing). This makes playing 40k very difficult already.

- we're dependent on a mobility scooter to get around. We only have range to reach the tiny GW store in our town, Wich has virtually no scene, as the two LFGSs have cornered the play space.

- we're terminally ill with blood cancer. We've outlived 3drs, we're given a prognosis of 20yrs, then 7-10. It's been 18. By all rights I should be dead, again.

- I say again, because we've died at least twice (clinical death) once as an infant and again at 2. We've been chronically hospitalized our entire life. We spent more than half of kindergarten and grades 1-3 in hospital, usually in an oxygen tent (they don't exist anymore, feel free to look them up).

- visual impairment. Legally blind without glasses, which we've been wearing since we were 6 months old (adjusted).

---

Are we disabled enough yet?
Do we somehow now have a right to play the game, FOLLOWING THE fething RULES, without needing to justify why we find it preferable?
Or should we just stop playing? Or more specifically, stop posting on here, because this always happened when we talk about how much we enjoy playing the game with PL and Open Play,as opposed to points and Matched Play? We've tried all kinds of combinations.

Well luckily list building apps like Battlescribe help to make it so you don't do extraneous math. Math is EXTREMELY easy for me but I still use Battlescribe since it keeps track of point updates and new rules. Also don't have to do a lot of typing and writing which is a plus.

Hecaton wrote:

Dai wrote:
Exactly its obnoxious debate bro "explain to me why you like this, ill wait" crap. That sort of personality may fly on reddit but in the real world (or non toxic communities) youll be rightly told to bore off.

That's literally what Fezzik opened the thread with...

You need to get a dictionary and look up “literally”, and while you’re at it have a look at “objective”. Might make these discussion a bit easier for us all.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Thank you Sgt_Smudge and others.

*Deep breath*

Ok, let's get to this then.

Folks want me to give a rundown of my disabilities, to prove that my case is valid?

Metal health:
- we are neurodivergent, we're autistic, as have DID thanks to a buttload of childhood trauma (don't worry, it get better). This means we dissociate, and /or have others front mid game. We have a large number of Littles who have shown interest in playing. Some of my headmates have dyscalculia.

- much of our trauma comes from a childhood in the 80's with disabilities. I've had some of these same invalidating tactics used against us our whole lives.

- extreme depression and suicidal thoughts.

- due to my chronic pain(see next section),I have very limited energy to dedicate to playing, if I do play 40k, it's probably the sole things I do that day.

Physical health:

- as mentioned, we have chronic pain, to the point of passing out between each of these points (let alone while playing). This makes playing 40k very difficult already.

- we're dependent on a mobility scooter to get around. We only have range to reach the tiny GW store in our town, Wich has virtually no scene, as the two LFGSs have cornered the play space.

- we're terminally ill with blood cancer. We've outlived 3drs, we're given a prognosis of 20yrs, then 7-10. It's been 18. By all rights I should be dead, again.

- I say again, because we've died at least twice (clinical death) once as an infant and again at 2. We've been chronically hospitalized our entire life. We spent more than half of kindergarten and grades 1-3 in hospital, usually in an oxygen tent (they don't exist anymore, feel free to look them up).

- visual impairment. Legally blind without glasses, which we've been wearing since we were 6 months old (adjusted).

---

Are we disabled enough yet?
Do we somehow now have a right to play the game, FOLLOWING THE fething RULES, without needing to justify why we find it preferable?
Or should we just stop playing? Or more specifically, stop posting on here, because this always happened when we talk about how much we enjoy playing the game with PL and Open Play,as opposed to points and Matched Play? We've tried all kinds of combinations.

Well luckily list building apps like Battlescribe help to make it so you don't do extraneous math. Math is EXTREMELY easy for me but I still use Battlescribe since it keeps track of point updates and new rules. Also don't have to do a lot of typing and writing which is a plus.

Battlescribe isn't compatible with my screen readers.

 Blndmage wrote:
Are we disabled enough yet?

Is that even a relevant question? Nobody is claiming that there's some disability threshold to be met, and I don't see any point in listing all of those things except as some weird attempt to shut down the conversation by making everyone feel bad for you.

Do we somehow now have a right to play the game, FOLLOWING THE fething RULES, without needing to justify why we find it preferable?

Once again: nobody is preventing you from playing the game. Nobody is coming into your home and demanding explanations. The only reason you are "forced" to justify your opinion on PL is that you willingly clicked on a thread about points vs PL, willingly read that thread, willingly posted your opinion in that thread, and now willingly continue to argue the point because you want to win the argument. You don't have to defend yourself but you aren't entitled to have people validate your opinions.

Or should we just stop playing?

Honest question: why don't you stop playing 40k? If 40k is such a complicated and difficult game then why not play a different game instead? There are simpler alternatives available that would be much better suited to your needs. Kill Team is a simpler game and designed to play well with the very small forces you want to use, and there are various third party not-40k games for using your 40k models. Maybe One Page Rules would be better, given its deliberate intent to be as simple and accessible as possible?

Don’t need battle scribe with power levels, luckily it’s all in the rules.

Slipspace wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'll stop when people learn to be able to discuss game mechanics without invalidating the people who play them and telling them that they shouldn't have space in the book.

It's really not that hard. You want to discuss game mechanics, do so without taking stuff away from other players.

This is absurd.

PL is a game mechanic.

Let's take the example I mentioned previously - 7th edition Formations. Many were broken beyond belief. According to you, discussing the possibility of removing them is verboten if one person says they enjoy them. That's insane. A mechanic/rule/design approach should be able to be discussed freely on its merits. According to you, any such discussion can be immediately vetoed by any one person simply saying "I enjoy <thing>". That's not an attitude I can agree with.

Apples and oranges. The Formations in 7th, as I've said, unless you refused to play them, *did* affect you. Unless you turned around and specifically said "yeah nah, all those new books and other entirely legitimate resources, I'm not okay with playing them", you kinda *had* to deal with that.

Open Play, on the other hand, doesn't affect you at all if you don't play it - which you self-admittedly don't.

There's a difference complaining about something which has a high chance of affecting you (Formations, broken units, 7th ed Invisibility, etc) and complaining about something which doesn't affect you at all, and still wanting to get rid of it because "it helps no-one", ignoring when people say "but it helps me".

It ain't hurting you. Why hurt other people removing something which doesn't hurt you?

EviscerationPlague wrote:Dyscalcula isn't something to use as an argument because they're going to struggle with both points and PL anyway, almost to the same level.

Give them access to a List Building app and it does the work for them.

Yet again, ignoring when people say that they've struggled with list building apps (again, should I *need* a list building app to play??), and also ignoring when they've said that although they struggle, PL is easier?

I'm not gonna speak for others, but when they say "yeah, PL is easier than points, so I'd rather use PL", I'm inclined to believe them, instead of saying "if you REALLY had dyscalculia, you wouldn't be able to use PL".

Voss wrote:

Now, as I said - happy to rescind my disrespect, if you'll do the same, and continue doing so.

Yeah, no. I'm not going to give you a conditional on the basis that you get to decide when you're 'implicitly disrespected' by topics that aren't about you.

I'm not going to apologize to a game mechanic, because that is still ALL that this is about

Cool. Continue to languish in ignorance.

It's elementary school levels of respect here, my person. Just because stuff exists doesn't mean it's always for you, and it doesn't have to. Quit being so entitled,

Its not always about you. You can reflect on this, or not.

Ah, yeah. I'm entitled for wanted to be respected. How dare I not just lie down and take when people say that I'm enjoying myself wrong. /sarcasm

Grow up, and learn empathy.

Hopefully you won't try to shut down too many more discussions in the future

Don't disrespect people, and I won't need to. You can learn from this, but I can't make you.

Insectum7 wrote:Reminder that the very premise of the thread is about the theoretical removal of a mechanic, points. It's in the thread title and first sentence of the OP.

Exactly - theoretical. But, and I have no idea if you did or not, if you look at my big ol' list of comments calling for ACTUAL removal of things, you'll notice that an overwhelming majority (and the first) of comments that explicitly called to remove things were about Open and PL. You'll also see that nearly all PL players, regardless of their feelings towards points, all support points existing, even if they don't use them.

The whole "DELETE THIS, YOU AREN'T ALLOWED TO ENJOY THE GAME THAT WAY" is coming from a specific handful of users on nearly exclusively one "side" here.

Just so we're clear.

Hecaton wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Disabled players get forgotten about constantly. We're not edge cases, or an insignificant number ~20% of Canadians (~25% of Americans) are disabled.

If you don't understand why that specific response to my question is ableist, I'd suggest talking with disabled 40k players you know. And if you say "I don't know any"...think about that for a bit.

I have ADHD. I literally have a neurodevelopmental disability. I asked about dyscalculia because it's a disability that would strongly indicate that PL would be of benefit to you.

Did you miss the other reasons they gave why PL was of benefit to them, or do they not count?

Also, yet again, being neurodivergent doesn't prevent you from being ableist. Internalised and societal ableism are real things.

Andykp wrote:
Mike drop post from smudge. End of.

Well I'm glad I have that well-known liar blocked :-D

Your loss, sweetheart

And hey, I'm well known! I'll take that much.

I wholeheartedly reject the idea that someone can claim a disability, and then it becomes morally wrong to argue against them.

No-one said it was morally wrong to argue against them. What *is* wrong is to continue to ignore their lived experiences, invalidate the mechanisms that they use to enjoy themselves, and furthermore to "prove" their right to have a disability.

This literally all could have been avoided if, after BIndmage said "I use Open Play and PL because of my conditions", every other user said "oh gak, yeah, that's totally fair, I see why you'd need that, let's maybe not get rid of a tool that helps you. I might not appreciate Open Play and PL myself, but I can see that you appreciate having those tools, so I suppose that you should have access to them".
Hell, that should have been the ONLY response necessary if a user says "I like 'X Thing That Doesn't Actually Stop You Enjoying What You Like".

You know, like mature adults.

Insectum7 wrote:Can we all just agree to keep PL and points, and then just end the thread?

Yes, quite. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
From OP:

"Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely? Because I'll be honest, I don't think it would stop the competitive scene, and frankly, that's the only leg propping up this horse these days."

We all know what the OP was and I can’t comment for fezziks intentions with his wording but my post stands. There isn’t any consensus from the people who regularly use power levels that they want rid of points. So don’t worry you guys aren’t in any danger here.

Acknowledged, but the thread title is what it is and the OP reads as it does.

Ok. Good.

Well, what does the phrase "abandoned points entirely" mean to you?

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Question: is there any other subject that gets this kind of "I ENJOY THIS YOU CANT TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME THATS RUDE AND INVALIDATING AND ABLEIST" reaction? Like, here's some threads on removing mechanics from the game:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805658.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/804347.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805679.page

All three of these threads contain people arguing different sides on the merits of those particular rules but none of them have this weird thing where changing a game mechanic is invalidating someone's experiences and a personal attack on them. Why does PL get this reaction where other mechanics don't? Why do "PL players" make it a part of their identity in a way that "AoC players" or "vehicles with AV and facings" players don't?

Replace "ableist" with "sexist" and that's how the female space marines arguments go, and they're not even in the game.

TLDR: Changed my mind. Under the current PL system, I would stop playing entirely.

The entire variable unit size system would need to be tossed. Every unit in the game would have to have a set unit size and fixed wargear. Effectively, all options, every one of them, would have to be removed for Power Level to work. I'm not opposed to it, but it's what would need to happen.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
Are we disabled enough yet?

Is that even a relevant question? Nobody is claiming that there's some disability threshold to be met, and I don't see any point in listing all of those things except as some weird attempt to shut down the conversation by making everyone feel bad for you.

Hecaton LITERALLY ASKED.

Christ, are you actually reading this thread?

Do we somehow now have a right to play the game, FOLLOWING THE fething RULES, without needing to justify why we find it preferable?

Once again: nobody is preventing you from playing the game.

You literally called to remove the part of the game that BIndmage plays!

you willingly clicked on a thread about points vs PL

The thread wasn't even ABOUT points vs PL - you pushed it to become that! The thread TOPIC was "would you keep playing 40k if points were gone" - there was no need to make comments like "PL should be removed from the game". You made that happen.

You don't have to defend yourself but you aren't entitled to have people validate your opinions.

No-one needs their opinion "validating" - only respecting, which you have repeatedly demonstrated your inability to do.

Or should we just stop playing?

Honest question: why don't you stop playing 40k? If 40k is such a complicated and difficult game then why not play a different game instead?

Because they have Open Play and Power Level at present, until you get your way and burn them out.

Hecaton wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Question: is there any other subject that gets this kind of "I ENJOY THIS YOU CANT TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME THATS RUDE AND INVALIDATING AND ABLEIST" reaction? Like, here's some threads on removing mechanics from the game:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805658.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/804347.page
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805679.page

All three of these threads contain people arguing different sides on the merits of those particular rules but none of them have this weird thing where changing a game mechanic is invalidating someone's experiences and a personal attack on them. Why does PL get this reaction where other mechanics don't? Why do "PL players" make it a part of their identity in a way that "AoC players" or "vehicles with AV and facings" players don't?

Replace "ableist" with "sexist" and that's how the female space marines arguments go, and they're not even in the game.

Yeah, you came out of the female marine arguments really well……..

Andykp wrote:

No one has said that you can’t argue against anyone with a disability. It’s how you go about that argument that matters.

No, people have. Stop being disingenuous; you've repeatedly been trying to steer the conversation towards "agreeing with me is morally wrong" this whole thread.

Andykp wrote:
As for agreeing to have both systems, that’s what we have been saying for 21 pages.

No. The starting post in the thread was not a kumbayah post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
You need to get a dictionary and look up “literally”, and while you’re at it have a look at “objective”. Might make these discussion a bit easier for us all.

I'm very aware of the definition. He wanted people to justify their like of points as opposed to PL, which is exactly your "explain it, I'll wait" comment.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Open Play, on the other hand, doesn't affect you at all if you don't play it - which you self-admittedly don't.

It doesn't affect the people who do play it. A single mention in the rulebook that you're permitted to change the rules if you want means nothing. People played games like that before Open™ Play™ became a thing, and they'll continue to do so after it is removed. You don't need official permission to change the rules and GW gives Open™ Play™ pretty much zero support beyond that permission.

And let's not forget here that the topic is normal points vs. PL as a point system. And the existence of PL does affect me because playing Crusade means either dealing with the worse point system or trying to convince everyone else to house rule a conversion over to the better point system. Crusade with normal points would be a very appealing change for me.

This literally all could have been avoided if, after BIndmage said "I use Open Play and PL because of my conditions", every other user said "oh gak, yeah, that's totally fair, I see why you'd need that, let's maybe not get rid of a tool that helps you. I might not appreciate Open Play and PL myself, but I can see that you appreciate having those tools, so I suppose that you should have access to them".
Hell, that should have been the ONLY response necessary if a user says "I like 'X Thing That Doesn't Actually Stop You Enjoying What You Like".

You know, like mature adults.

"This would have been avoided if you'd just validated my opinions and not attempted to discuss the merits of the thing I love and cling to as part of my identity."

Nice to see you getting back to being rude and insulting by accusing everyone who disagrees with you of not being mature adults.

Hecaton wrote:

Andykp wrote:
As for agreeing to have both systems, that’s what we have been saying for 21 pages.

No. The starting post in the thread was not a kumbayah post.

Amazing, but Andykp isn't the OP. I'm not the OP. BIndmage isn't the OP. As I've shown there's, what, 3 whole posts from the pro/ambivalent PL "side" that even hint at points vanishing, and only one of those comes close to being an actual desire.
That's in contrast to... every other comment from the anti-PL "side"?

No-one's saying this is a kumbayah situation, but we all know what side is doing their best to ensure it isn't.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Reminder that the very premise of the thread is about the theoretical removal of a mechanic, points. It's in the thread title and first sentence of the OP.

Exactly - theoretical.

Haha. Ok. . .

"How would people feel if we removed all the (insert group of people here)? You know, purely theoretical, of course?"

People are just really passionate about points, I guess.