Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sure, some will say it doesn't need any... but I still can't decide whether those 10 points for the Hull Shuriken Cannon are worth it.

I mean, its 10 points... or 70 for a 2000 list.. shave a bit left and right and that's a whole 'nother Fire Prism.

Has anyone figured that one out ?
Does it make sense for a Wave Serpent to stay within <24" to maximize dakka ?
Is 10 points on a 145pts unit cheap enough that 50% use makes +12"/+1shot / +2str / -1AP on one weapon worth it ?

I'm really leaning towards "I'd rather have those guns", but I wonder how logical that choice is.

I'm running Holo / Scatter / HullCannon - anyone found something competitive that is not part of that combo ?

Thanks.

I dont think this question is meant for the army lists section

That was my impression too, but then no other place in the forum seemed like a good place to discuss unit point optimization, and that's more or less what army lists are about.. If you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it

I don't upgrade the Underslung Shuriken Cannon. It's generally wasted the first turn and is at best a TwinLinked Snap Shot unless you move only 6". And I never seem to have the points or a better use for them.

Granted, I don't Spam Serpents, maybe 3-4 at 1850.

Tactics
Army lists are for making army lists.

I would still keep the shuiken cannons though

I never take cannons, 40pts at 1850 is 40pts.

The cannons add in another three shots with an 88% hit rate, or 2-3 more hits per turn at S: 6. For me, that's normally the difference between one or two guys left or another kill point. For only 10 points, I deem it well worth the cost. You almost always make it back, and in my case it's only 20-30 points at 1500, which doesn't buy me much of anything,

 Arbiter wrote:
I never take cannons, 40pts at 1850 is 40pts.

Every single game my cannons make ther points back. Every game.

Thats like saying dont take holo fields either or any other upgrade cause those get 50+ points to.

 Zagman wrote:
I don't upgrade the Underslung Shuriken Cannon. It's generally wasted the first turn and is at best a TwinLinked Snap Shot unless you move only 6". And I never seem to have the points or a better use for them.

Granted, I don't Spam Serpents, maybe 3-4 at 1850.

Its not wasted. Its a decent upgrade.

Not sure how you play Serpents? Mine close in staying at range 24'' to shoot tl scatterlaser, shuricannon, and shield. That's a crazy number of shots. E.g., in a team tourney, one of my Serpents killed a grounded winged DP in one volley. Not really a surprise if you do the math.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I don't upgrade the Underslung Shuriken Cannon. It's generally wasted the first turn and is at best a TwinLinked Snap Shot unless you move only 6". And I never seem to have the points or a better use for them.

Granted, I don't Spam Serpents, maybe 3-4 at 1850.

Its not wasted. Its a decent upgrade.

Not sure how you play Serpents? Mine close in staying at range 24'' to shoot tl scatterlaser, shuricannon, and shield. That's a crazy number of shots. E.g., in a team tourney, one of my Serpents killed a grounded winged DP in one volley. Not really a surprise if you do the math.

Mine are filled with Wraithguard and Wraithscythe. They are Objective Secured a Transports and are needed to rapidly redeploy on the table. Move 12" Fire is standard for me, that or they get forced to Jink anyway.

10pts per model stil adds up. When it's the difference between fielding my 4th Serpent, or my Wraithscythe Upgrade, or makes my second Wraithknight impossible to field, then yes it is important and I haven't really missed them.

I dont use mine as transports, and especially not for wraith guard as they got nerfed pretty hard.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I dont use mine as transports, and especially not for wraith guard as they got nerfed pretty hard.

And I use mine is a dual role. Good firepower while transporting WG or WS into position. How did WG get nerfed? I seem them as a great way to pull HP off of things like Knights and AV, plus FMCs need to Glide for a turn before assaulting, and Riptides are still a thing, so are opposing Wraithknights. They are still T6 Troops with good guns. Sure, ~3x the cost of DAs, but S10 is S10.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I dont use mine as transports, and especially not for wraith guard as they got nerfed pretty hard.

OT: Just curious, how did the wraiths get nerfed?

They got nerfed hard with new damage chart. Before they were good as an anti armor, now there just ok. In fact I woudnt trust them to kill a tank in one turn of shooting.
Against a rhino that popped smoke:
5 shots with about 3 hits. all pen (generous). rhino makes one cover save (average). Now you stripped a rhino of 2 hull points, and the 2/3 chance of blowing it with an explodes result just went all the way down to 1/3. From a more than likely chance of popping a tank to a not as likely.

morgoth wrote:

I'm running Holo / Scatter / HullCannon - anyone found something competitive that is not part of that combo ?
Thanks.

I'm running bright lances, holofields. It lets me hold back at a decent range using the speed and jink to maximum advantage.
I want to use my super-scoring transport to take multiple objectives and stay alive.
If I need to kill infantry, I get out of the transport.

I always start with the shuriken cannon, and only cut them out at the end if I'm short on points.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
They got nerfed hard with new damage chart. Before they were good as an anti armor, now there just ok. In fact I woudnt trust them to kill a tank in one turn of shooting.
Against a rhino that popped smoke:
5 shots with about 3 hits. all pen (generous). rhino makes one cover save (average). Now you stripped a rhino of 2 hull points, and the 2/3 chance of blowing it with an explodes result just went all the way down to 1/3. From a more than likely chance of popping a tank to a not as likely.

That isn't a very good example. They did not get nerfed, armor got buffed. Even Melta. You can say the same thing about Melta Vets, Fire Dragons, Combi Melta Sternguard, etc. any AT.

It's still 3.3 Hits with Auto glance. No Cover is a Wreck, saying they saved their smoke until that point is unlikely as Wraithguard are not getting out to kill a Smoked Rhino. Assuming asinine tactics to further your argument is bad form.

But when a Knight is baring down, 5 S10 AP2 attacks vs side armor shield or no shield is huge. 2.8 HP before Shield with a 11% chance of a D3 HP per hit. Vs AV13 Front it's still 2.2 HP with a 8.% per hit chance for a D3 HP pre shield.

5 Wraithguard are just as likely to Distort a Wraithknight than not and still average 2.8 Wounds, better if you Spirit Marked it.

The cannon is almost always worth it IMO, even if it only kills one marine over the course of an entire game. I only drop them when then points dont allow.

Str 6 BS 4 re-roll you get an 89% chance to hit and a 29.5% chance to glance/pen a rhino per shot. With a 5+ cover save (why not) you're getting about a 20% chance per shot. Even when snap-fired, more shots is more chances.

In either of these cases, the difference between 4 and 7 str 6 shots is huge. More than 10 points Huge.

Also, every once in a while you rend which is a nice bonus against those 2+ and 3+ MC's

 Zagman wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
They got nerfed hard with new damage chart. Before they were good as an anti armor, now there just ok. In fact I woudnt trust them to kill a tank in one turn of shooting.
Against a rhino that popped smoke:
5 shots with about 3 hits. all pen (generous). rhino makes one cover save (average). Now you stripped a rhino of 2 hull points, and the 2/3 chance of blowing it with an explodes result just went all the way down to 1/3. From a more than likely chance of popping a tank to a not as likely.

That isn't a very good example. They did not get nerfed, armor got buffed. Even Melta. You can say the same thing about Melta Vets, Fire Dragons, Combi Melta Sternguard, etc. any AT.

It's still 3.3 Hits with Auto glance. No Cover is a Wreck, saying they saved their smoke until that point is unlikely as Wraithguard are not getting out to kill a Smoked Rhino. Assuming asinine tactics to further your argument is bad form.

But when a Knight is baring down, 5 S10 AP2 attacks vs side armor shield or no shield is huge. 2.8 HP before Shield with a 11% chance of a D3 HP per hit. Vs AV13 Front it's still 2.2 HP with a 8.% per hit chance for a D3 HP pre shield.

5 Wraithguard are just as likely to Distort a Wraithknight than not and still average 2.8 Wounds, better if you Spirit Marked it.

Yes, everyone took a hit. Melta though is still better at destroying tanks, and wraith guard are just ok now. Any vehicle thats av 12+ with any sort of cover wraith guard are going to struggle to bring down. Smoke was just an example of how they could get cover.

And for 160 points, plus the wave serpent optimization cost (snap firing, using it more as a transport rather than a gunboat) I find wraith guard to be worse

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
They got nerfed hard with new damage chart. Before they were good as an anti armor, now there just ok. In fact I woudnt trust them to kill a tank in one turn of shooting.
Against a rhino that popped smoke:
5 shots with about 3 hits. all pen (generous). rhino makes one cover save (average). Now you stripped a rhino of 2 hull points, and the 2/3 chance of blowing it with an explodes result just went all the way down to 1/3. From a more than likely chance of popping a tank to a not as likely.

That isn't a very good example. They did not get nerfed, armor got buffed. Even Melta. You can say the same thing about Melta Vets, Fire Dragons, Combi Melta Sternguard, etc. any AT.

It's still 3.3 Hits with Auto glance. No Cover is a Wreck, saying they saved their smoke until that point is unlikely as Wraithguard are not getting out to kill a Smoked Rhino. Assuming asinine tactics to further your argument is bad form.

But when a Knight is baring down, 5 S10 AP2 attacks vs side armor shield or no shield is huge. 2.8 HP before Shield with a 11% chance of a D3 HP per hit. Vs AV13 Front it's still 2.2 HP with a 8.% per hit chance for a D3 HP pre shield.

5 Wraithguard are just as likely to Distort a Wraithknight than not and still average 2.8 Wounds, better if you Spirit Marked it.

Yes, everyone took a hit. Melta though is still better at destroying tanks, and wraith guard are just ok now. Any vehicle thats av 12+ with any sort of cover wraith guard are going to struggle to bring down. Smoke was just an example of how they could get cover.

And for 160 points, plus the wave serpent optimization cost (snap firing, using it more as a transport rather than a gunboat) I find wraith guard to be worse

That is why I run TLSL and the shield as weapons. Move 12" and fire at full effect. This is a Wave Serpent optimization thread.

I agree with you, if I were to be using my Wave Serpents as Gunboats I'd be using the Underslung Shuriken Cannon and only moving 6" as well.

But, in a primarily transport roll I find I rarely have the points to spare as I find better uses for them. WG are still solid choices,though to maximize general firepower DA Wave Serpents as gunboats are better and more cost efficient.

Hard to argue when we are promising off of differing roles.

I just played 2000 points yesterday, fielded 7 Wave Serpents and two Prisms (used to field 8 and 3 in 4th/5th) and I must say those Shuriken cannons are worth a ton.

Not only did i get to shoot them almost every turn because the enemy was advancing and I could stay within 24", but I think having the TL Shuriken cannon with bladestorm, twin-linked on flyers 66% of the time... well it can't be a bad thing considering I have no other AA (no crimson no spiders).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:


That is why I run TLSL and the shield as weapons. Move 12" and fire at full effect. This is a Wave Serpent optimization thread.

I agree with you, if I were to be using my Wave Serpents as Gunboats I'd be using the Underslung Shuriken Cannon and only moving 6" as well.

I don't use them as primarily transports, and I don't believe a 145 points investment (135 in your case) can seriously be thought of as "just a transport".

If you absolutely need to move 12", you get 3 snapshots from a TL gun, i.e. at least one S6 Bladestorm shot a turn, definitely worth 10 points is it not ?

When you don't, you get 3 TL shots, definitely worth it.

I'm more and more convinced that Shuriken Cannon is a gift from heaven since "Laser Lock".

I took 3 wave serpents to a tourney but in order to shave points on a tight list I went with 2 without shuiken canon, 1 with..I was really nervous .. going in, yet made the final and won.. I mention this not because I am trollling my awesomeness, but that I was 100% very concerned about this going into it.. in reality? I personally move a LOT, so I found the shuriken canon wasted.. 12 inches is MANDATORY imho (a LOT more than 6 inches! especially when a ork trukk is going to get to close an average of 25 inches (between 20 and 36) when it assaults..) and if you are not moving a lot you are probably going to loose some other way.. I try to stay well out of assault range and run down my target list.. I found that 24" was a) often too close and b) I wanted to move 12 inches far too many times.. just my 2 pence