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Hi all, I'm building up two lists, one High and one Dark, and I want them to compliment each other without one clearly dominating for games between friends (non-competitive). I'm not sure how they'll work against each other so was looking for some input. The points values are at 2,000.

High Elves: Lothern Theme (with some Saphery for good measure)

Lords:
Loremaster - Book of Hoeth, Talisman of Preservation

Heroes:
Lothern Sea Helm - BSB, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Shield of Merwyrm, Potion of Speed

Lothern Sea Helm - Reaver Bow, Glittering Scales

Core:
21 Lothern Sea Guard - FC, Shields (Sea Helm)

21 Lothern Sea Guard - FC, Shields (Sea Helm)

Special:
17 Swordmasters - FC, Standard of Discipline (Loremaster here)

Lothern Skycutter - Eagle Eye

Lothern Skycutter - Eagle Eye

Rare:
Great Eagle - Shredding Talons, Swiftsense

Great Eagle - Shredding Talons, Swiftsense

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower


Dark Elves: No real theme but will paint hydra emblems on banners and stuff.

Lords:
Supreme Sorceress - Level 4 (Dark), Black Amulet, Tome of Furion

Heroes:
Master - BSB, Heavy Armor, SDC, Shield, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone

Assassin - Cloak of Twilight, Extra Hand Weapon

Core:
30 Dreadspears - FC

10 Witch Elves

10 Witch Elves

Special:
30 Executioners - FC

War Hydra - Fiery Breath

War Hydra - Fiery Breath

Rare:
10 Sisters of Slaughter


The idea here is that the High Elves are mainly about shooting and maneuvering and the Dark Elves are mainly about combat and bigger blocks with support, so they're opposites in play-style and fluff. Since the Dark Elves have little shooting I've tried to go for a target saturation thing so the High Elf player will have to be careful with movement and target priority even though for the first few turns he will have the advantage. I intentionally don't give the Dark Elves a scroll because I feel they have an advantage in casting so the High Elves can get a boost to dispels (from the book) and still have it be fair. I am also considering dropping a level on the Sorceress and doing something(?) with the points if it seems like too much. My plan for the Tome was to take Soul Stealer to try and get a 5-6 wound Black Amulet Sorceress so she can march up into combat with Power of Darkness (probably in the Dreadspears). Eagles mainly have shredding talons because I had nowhere else to spend points. I think they need Swiftsense though sense they will mainly (95% of the time) be fighting the Dark Elf list.

So my main question is: will one of these lists just routinely stomp the other into the ground or will games between them be fun and close?

Hi mate, I'm a veteran High Elf player and a relatively new Dark Elf player, so I'll try and help with both lists - bear in mind I'm not a tournament-level player in regards to Warhammer Fantasy though, so other posters will have better advice if you want to play competitively.

High Elves: The stock standard build for the Loremaster and it is pretty decent, but I think you would probably get better mileage out of an Archmage. It doesn't fit the theme as well of course but being a Level 4 for dispelling purposes in particular is a must have, especially once you start getting into bigger games. I'm not a big fan of Sea Helms as their reform ability is nice but doesn't work for Stand and Shoot reactions, they are also expensive and are significantly limited versus regular Nobles. I think you need a supporting mage to complement a Loremaster if you go that route as you really need a Dispel Scroll at the very least for magic defence. I'm not a big fan of any High Elf Core infantry aside from Archers, but I guess Sea Guard are worth it over Spearmen if only because they can shoot. Just be aware that at their cost per model opponents will be bringing their elite infantry that will simply mash through Sea Guard with no difficulty.

Swordmasters are still a decent unit but aren't as good all-round as White Lions, Swordmasters get essentially an extra rank of attacks and a 6+ ward save against some shooting VS a 3+ armour save against most shooting, Strength 6 and permanent Stubborn. If you have to take Swordmasters, the Banner of the World Dragon is a necessity as otherwise they will be shot/magic to death (you can save points on the Loremaster with this by dropping his Talisman of Preservation). Sky Cutters really aren't that great and the Bolt Throwers are just too inaccurate, if you want a High Elf Chariot take the Tiranoc variants in pairs. When you consider the Sky Cutter only gets +1 movement over a Tiranoc and little else it just isn't worth it. Great Eagles do NOT need upgrades; they are there to kill war machine crew and do not need either Armour Piercing or Always Strikes First to do so. The Bolt Throwers are fine and a must-include in any competitive list.

If you want to keep to the theme, swap the Sea Helms out and take one Noble BSB with the Armour of Caledor. Either beef up your Sea Guard units or combine them as 21 Toughness 3 models with a 5+ armour save will drop like flies. Bump up your Swordmasters if you can and try to get the Banner of the World Dragon on them; alternatively, swap both them and the Loremaster out for an Archmage and White Lions. Get rid of the Skycutters and drop the upgrades on the Eagles. At 2000 points this is too fragile of an army and needs lots more models in it to be competitive, if you can try to squeeze in a Frostheart Phoenix as it will draw so much attention away from the rest of your army and hugely mitigates your army-wide Toughness 3. I would recommend some Core Cavalry such as Ellyrion Reavers or Silver Helms as both are probably the best High Elf Core choices, but the Eagles should do a fine chaff job.


Dark Elves: The Supreme Sorceress only really needs a Dispel Scroll and a 4+ ward save, you don't want her in combat for the Black Amulet and I don't recall the Tome of Furion being all that useful either. I would probably recommend Shadow on her but Dark Magic is fine. Swap the Dragonhelm and Shield out for an Enchanted Shield, it will save points on the Master and lead to the same end result - a 1+ re-rollable armour save. You won't need the 2+ ward against flaming attacks in all but a select few match-ups. If you can, give the BSB the Sword of Might so that they can do some good damage in combat. Drop the Assassin, honestly. They are cool and all but you would be far better served with either more rank and file models or Lokhir Fellheart. The Core is ok, but I would swap the Dreadspears for Bleakswords if you absolutely must take Core infantry blocks - Dreadspears do no damage while Bleakswords at least get a 6+ parry save. Your Witch Elf units are fine but you should probably consider Dark Riders as alternative chaff, Dark Riders are better overall with far higher mobility and survivability. You can't go wrong with a big block of Executioners! War Hydras are decent but I would probably swap them for Kharibdyss', the latter are far better for the cost. The Sisters of Slaughter don't really serve any purpose unless they have a Bloodwrack Shrine to make for an uber-tarpit unit.

My thoughts on the Dark Elves are that you should swap the Witch Elves for Dark Riders with shields, repeater crossbows and musicians, make the changes to your characters listed above, drop the Assassin and the Sisters of Slaughter, and swap the Hydras' out for Kharibdyss'. This should give you close to 300 points to work with so you can throw in 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers. If you have the points spare, consider swapping the Dreadspears to a block of Corsairs with Additional Hand Weapons - 4+ armour versus 5+/6++ is generally a wash but Corsairs get the extra attacks to balance it out. Alternatively, swap the Dreadspears for Darkshards, preferably a single unit of 20 with shields for your Sorceress to join.


These are just general suggestions as I am in a rush and don't want to really tear apart your lists, but I hope they help!

I'd drop the loremaster for an archmage. You're paying a premium for a character who is worse than an archmage. And in a high elf army, a level 4 needs to be present to work his synergistic magic. I'd also drop the BSB for a noble with the armour of caledor as your BSB. Those will be much more versatile. And stick the reaver now on a handmaiden of the everqueen. This allows you to utilise it far better than a sea helm would.

The rest of the army is good though!


As for the dark elf list, drop dark magic from the level 4. It has minimal synergy with the army.

The BSB can be improved by using the following: enchanted shield, dawnstone, and sword of might in addition to his Sea Dragon Cloak.

Those 110 points of witches will give you just enough for 5 dark riders with shields, crossbows and a musician. Which will add more to the army.

Hydras are meh. Drop one for a chariot of some kind. You also need more sisters if you're going to do anything with them.

Alright thanks for the tips guys. The Loremaster is really only there because I love the model so I may just use him as an Archmage and swap out his sword for a staff of some sort. Same with the Sea Helm, I just love the model, but with a bit of converting I can make him a normal Noble. I understand the Sea Guard aren't the best choice but they're the only High Elf core models I can stomach looking at So theme it is! I will be avoiding the Banner though, personally not a fan of it. That and if I switch the Dark Elf lore to Shadow it won't actually do anything, really (since these two armies will play each other mostly)

I like that change for the BSB... adds a bit of bite to him. If I drop Dark them I can do away with the Tome and just swap it for the scroll maybe. It'll eat my theory with the Black Amulet as well so that would change too. hmm..... needs to make some adjustments

 Cirronimbus wrote:
Alright thanks for the tips guys. The Loremaster is really only there because I love the model so I may just use him as an Archmage and swap out his sword for a staff of some sort. Same with the Sea Helm, I just love the model, but with a bit of converting I can make him a normal Noble. I understand the Sea Guard aren't the best choice but they're the only High Elf core models I can stomach looking at So theme it is! I will be avoiding the Banner though, personally not a fan of it. That and if I switch the Dark Elf lore to Shadow it won't actually do anything, really (since these two armies will play each other mostly)

I like that change for the BSB... adds a bit of bite to him. If I drop Dark them I can do away with the Tome and just swap it for the scroll maybe. It'll eat my theory with the Black Amulet as well so that would change too. hmm..... needs to make some adjustments

The best level 4 in the book for dark elves is by far Morathi. But the next best is a level 4 death/shadow on pegasus, with the cloak of twilight and obsidian trinket.

@Cirronimbus
The Lore of Shadow is actually really good when facing Elves with Elves. Miasma is always useful and gives you the upper hand in combat or can stop their shooting dead in its tracks, while you can get rid of their re-rolls to hit against your great weapon troops. Elves rely on hitting hard so dropping their Strength makes their combat units nigh useless barring Phoenix Guard, while dropping Toughness is always fantastic. Pit of Shades will snipe out all the low Initiative monsters in either army - Frostheart Phoenix, Hydra, etc - while Okkam's ensures you will win any combat. There are very few match-ups I can think of where Shadow isn't useful, it is such a fantastic lore.

Caederes wrote:
@Cirronimbus
The Lore of Shadow is actually really good when facing Elves with Elves. Miasma is always useful and gives you the upper hand in combat or can stop their shooting dead in its tracks, while you can get rid of their re-rolls to hit against your great weapon troops. Elves rely on hitting hard so dropping their Strength makes their combat units nigh useless barring Phoenix Guard, while dropping Toughness is always fantastic. Pit of Shades will snipe out all the low Initiative monsters in either army - Frostheart Phoenix, Hydra, etc - while Okkam's ensures you will win any combat. There are very few match-ups I can think of where Shadow isn't useful, it is such a fantastic lore.

Other than only being Level 2, the Loremaster does all this and more. I would say the Loremaster is better against Elves than the Shadow mage. Okkams is pointless as Elves are only T3. Any High Elf elite will already wound on 2's. Initiative spells will do nothing against Elves. Dropping the Str of Elves is good, but a Wyssans from the Loremaster is just as good. Iceshard and Miasma are the two best debuffs in the game IMO. I think the biggest consideration is that Shadow has 0 magic missles, which are really strong against Elves. The Loremaster packs 3 magic missles (searing doom, fireball, shem's).

rollawaythestone wrote:

Caederes wrote:
@Cirronimbus
The Lore of Shadow is actually really good when facing Elves with Elves. Miasma is always useful and gives you the upper hand in combat or can stop their shooting dead in its tracks, while you can get rid of their re-rolls to hit against your great weapon troops. Elves rely on hitting hard so dropping their Strength makes their combat units nigh useless barring Phoenix Guard, while dropping Toughness is always fantastic. Pit of Shades will snipe out all the low Initiative monsters in either army - Frostheart Phoenix, Hydra, etc - while Okkam's ensures you will win any combat. There are very few match-ups I can think of where Shadow isn't useful, it is such a fantastic lore.

Other than only being Level 2, the Loremaster does all this and more. I would say the Loremaster is better against Elves than the Shadow mage. Okkams is pointless as Elves are only T3. Any High Elf elite will already wound on 2's. Initiative spells will do nothing against Elves. Dropping the Str of Elves is good, but a Wyssans from the Loremaster is just as good. Iceshard and Miasma are the two best debuffs in the game IMO. I think the biggest consideration is that Shadow has 0 magic missles, which are really strong against Elves. The Loremaster packs 3 magic missles (searing doom, fireball, shem's).

Level 1 metal, fire and beast Mages aren't that much more expensive than him. And I say once more byes a character you pay a premium for to be worse than the generic combat and casty options. He suffers the same issue as the Sea Helm. Too expensive for what he adds.