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Hello people of Dakka Dakka. I come to you on my hands and knees, begging for help. You're about to see a grown man cry, so bare with me here.

I have been playing Skaven since I started playing Warhammer back in... 2003? So yeah. For over 10 years now. And in all that time, if I had to put my wins into a percentage, it would probably be less than 5%. For the most part I've not minded. It's a game, it's fuuuuun. But really, it's getting too much. It has become very painfully obvious that I'm doing something dreadfully wrong.

I'm not picky and I like trying things, so my army list chops and changes, but I always try and have a standard of at least a BSB and one or two big units. But it doesn't seem to matter what I try: Hordes, many units, Elites, Shooting, Magic. It all falls through. I understand the random nature of Skaven, but I'm no longer having fun, and I can't image it's fun for my opponents knowing they're going into any game against me as a free win.

So this is it. I want this to change. I'm going to turn around my luck and strengthen my gameplay. My next game is in two weeks against Ogres and I set myself this goal. I'll win, or I'm done. I'll quit the game, or at least take a break until the new Skaven book, but if that doesn't interest me... yeah... I'll be done.

So what I'll do here is list everything I have, and I want to hear everything you've got. What I should use, what to avoid, what do I need. I'm willing to buy some stuff in if needed. And I'm sorry if this seems mellow-dramatic, like I'm taking the game too seriously, but I just want to feel like I'm playing against my friends as an equal, and not as some whipping boy. Anyway, here's what I have:

Lords:
Grey Seer Thanquol and Boneripper (I tend to just use him as a Grey Seer.
3 Isle of Blood Warlords (No idea how I've accumulated so many)
Ikit Claw.

Heroes:
2 Chieftans
3 Warlock Engineers
1 Plague Priest (with Plague Furnace)
2 Assassins
1 Tretch Craventail

Core:
Roughly 250 Clanrats... if I had to count what, I'd say it's roughly about 100 with spears, the rest with hand weapons. About 40-50 of the hand weapon ones are in poor nick and tend to be used as slaves.
20 Nightrunners
20 Stormvermin
20 Giant Rats
2 Rat Swarms

Special:
9 Gutter Runners
Approx 60 Plague Monks
5 Censer Bearers
10 Rat Ogres (and by extention about 8 packmasters and one Skweel Gnawtooth)
5 Jezzails
5 Globadeers

Rare:
1 Hellpit Abomination
1 Doomwheel
1 Warplightning Cannon

Unbuilt:
A Warplightning/Plagueclaw Catapult model

Weapon Teams:
2 Poisoned Wind Mortars
3 Ratling Guns
2 Warpfire Throwers

And now a rundown of the issues I encounter.

Hordes get targeted by "every model takes test or die" spells. Wizards are everywhere and it's hard to avoid this.
The Hellpit has been useless. Everyone expects me to take it and they take flaming attacks out the wazoo.
I can't not misfire with weapons teams. The only team I can use consistently is the Ratling Gun by playing it safe.
I hate Skaven magic. It seems awful compared to everything else out there. I'm aware this won't be fixed until the new book, but I'm really worried that they won't make it as stupidly destructive as it should be. When every single army in the game can overcharge their spells, apart from the army who lore wise should be overcharging their spells, it's kinda demoralizing.

So yeah... there you have it. I don't know what to expect, but whatever help you have, I'll take it.

Just out of personal curiosity, what is your normal army list?

And playstyle too. That will affect the advice I give.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Just out of personal curiosity, what is your normal army list?

And playstyle too. That will affect the advice I give.

Right, well in a normal 2k army list you'll usually see from me at the very least:

1 Gray Seer OR 1 Warlord
A BSB, 1-2 Warlock Engineers and either an assassin or Plague Priest.
Clanrats and slaves are staple. I've tried taking slaves as block units of 40, and I've tried hordes of Clanrats, but I normally take 25-30 Clanrats and a weapon team.
Gutter Runners with poisoned attacks and slings
Doomwheel
Warplightning Cannon
Sometimes a Hellpit.

Anything else suffers from mix and match. Sometimes I'll have stormvermin, sometimes a horde of Plague Monks and a Furnace. Sometimes even some Nightrunners or Jezzails. Very, very occasionally but not recently Rat Ogres.
Things I've not used that often include Globadeers and Giant Rats.

As for playstyle, it suffers from a little inconsistency. I tend to advance quickly as I find most things outshoot me and outmagic me. Unfortunately I find that as soon as I get into combat they outfight me too. I've been trying to tarpit things down with slaves, but I've seen them die so quickly. In my last 3 games, my hellpit has died in the first turn because everyone takes flaming attacks and I almost always see the Lore of Life or Shadow when spellcasters are about. Maneuvering into flank charges is hard because I have fast Calvary or Calvary in general running down flanks, and terrain getting in the way. The Gutter Runners Sneaky Infiltrate of course to try and take out weapon teams, but the turn 2 Chance means they normally take a decent toll out of my army before they come in. I'm usually good at firing the Warplightning Cannon when I'm not misfiring, although last time I played High Elves I nearly just got up and walked away when I ran into a Calvary unit with a 1+ Armour save and a 2+ against all Magic. Watching them shrug off a S10 Cannon explosion like nothing is really demoralizing.

And the most important part. My dice rolls are atrocious. I roll low when I need to roll high and vice versa. Anything I could do to reduce the chances of my dice screwing me over would be very appreciated.

Lol there are 15 armies, if you think Skaven cannot win, take another army. If you don't like the other armies, try 1 of the 17 unofficial ones. The game is awesome, no need to stop it cause you cant play with one particular army.

Sorry Keyser while your advice has merit it's not really helpful and a little insulting. I'd rather fix the problems in my Skaven play than move on to another army with the bad habits I've obviously picked up over the years.

KeyserSoze wrote:
Lol there are 15 armies, if you think Skaven cannot win, take another army. If you don't like the other armies, try 1 of the 17 unofficial ones. The game is awesome, no need to stop it cause you cant play with one particular army.

You are writing like a child, the man(I am assuming that part Keyser) love skaven and should not suffer from serious loss issues especially when he has over a decade of experience under his belt. Normally I would say play more games with one style and mix as needed but in this case.

Have you ever studied what your opponents have wanted to bring or know what they will bring regularly? Surely you have an idea of what their regular bag of douchery brings to your games by now. I've never gotten a game of fantasy before (I'm trying to stick to an army I might like, right now its skaven or DoC) also dice rolls can indeed be impacted by how you handle the dice, how they are palmed and how you roll them.


First I would address how you roll your dice, pay attention to your technique and if your technique changes during certain rolls. I say this because if you roll the dice using the masturbation technique which looks like how it sounds, depending on how those dice sit in your hand when you pick them up will determine averages. If you use the cupped palm technique where both hands are cupped to force dice to bounce around in your hand then you are mixing up your odds of low rolls because no average can be determined.

Skaven don't have good enough stats to be a single deathstar combat block army. You need multiple threatening combat blocks.

I can only assume that you've run more than 20 stormvermin in some games and used some spare clanrats as wound counters. If not, consider running storm vermin and your plague monks.

Truth be told, the best advice you'll get likely come from doing a battle report and documenting everything. This will allow us to see your playstyle, your thought process as you progress, and offer constructive advice based off how you're playing.

You can give the same army list to a group of players and get a mixed bag of results facing the same opponent. The battle report will require a bit of work on your end, but if you're looking for the best possible answer and not random speculation, it'll be well worth the effort.

The main skaven player I play against (who goes to GTs and does quite well at them) usual list consists of:

2 or 3 units of 50 slaves (5x10 aka bus formation). He uses them as chaff and to protect his flanks.

1 unit of 30 clanrats, bunker for grey seer and bsb. Gives you a LD 10 re-rollable bubble for the rest of your army.

He runs a horde of stormvermin or a horde of plague monks with the furnace. Puts these in the middle of his line in front of his bunker. Serves as your main combat block. He usually puts a warlord with the fellblade or assassin with weeping blade & potion of strength.

He uses a hellpit, doomwheel and 2 warp lightning cannons. These are your heavy hitters and main damage dealers. Make sure to take advantage of the random movement so you can charge 360 degrees and opponent cant flee. Doomwheels are awesome at taking down monsters or multi wound units, and warp lightning cannons whilst somewhat unreliable can be even more effective than normal cannons, especially against small elite infantry blocks. Remember even if you get str 2 or 4, opponent still gets no armor save.

A couple units of 7 or 8 gutter runners with poison slings to take out warmachines, anything prone to poison, etc.

Rat darts are some of the best re-directors also. 5 rats and a packmaster is 23 points. This allows you to have some drops as well as you can park them in front of big blocks at certain angles hoping to put his units out of place or make them reform and slow them down.

Definitely take a doom rocket and/or brass orb. These two items are super powerful for their point value.

The only weapon teams I have seen do well is warpfire throwers. D3 wounds at str 5 is awesome. Helps cause panic tests as well.

Skaven magic is quite powerful. Dreaded 13th is one of the most broken spells, and plague is quite powerful as well. Against ogres crack's call will do quite well given their low I.

So basically you need to build a castle with slaves on either sides of your bunker and main horde. Use your cannons to blow holes in big blocks or monsters. Gutter runners take out warmachines, mage bunkers, etc. Use your heavy hitters to punch holes through enemy lives. Slaves are awesome at tarpitting opponents, make sure you keep them in range of your general as much as possible though. Against ogres, you have a lot of things that do d3 or d6 wounds, so take advantage of this.

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others will tell you differently. Listen to everyone, take everything with a grain of salt. But don't whine and complain that nothing works when people offer you advice. Makes them feel like you are wasting everyone's time. Not saying that you have whined, but just warning. Just try different things out, one thing will work for others that doesn't for you.

Cheers

Skaven can be an absolutely devastating army. They are probably my most dreaded matchup, since I favor heavily armored elite style armies (WoC, Empire). Overall I think you just need to saturate the board with insane high-threat units and a few nice blocks of ratmen. Here's a list my buddy plays with very good success. Most good Skaven lists are some variation of this list.

-Gray seer on bell (goes with clanrats)
-Combat BSB
-couple warplock engineers
-25-30 Stormvermin
-40-50 clanrats (w/ special weapons)
-3-5 rat ogres/big unit of slaves/plague monks for various combat utility
-hellpit abom
-doomwheel
-fill in rest of the rare with warp lightning cannons

Get some good experience with this style of list and I'd be shocked if you didn't start winning significantly more games.

 zonino wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Just out of personal curiosity, what is your normal army list?

And playstyle too. That will affect the advice I give.

Right, well in a normal 2k army list you'll usually see from me at the very least:

1 Gray Seer OR 1 Warlord
A BSB, 1-2 Warlock Engineers and either an assassin or Plague Priest.
Clanrats and slaves are staple. I've tried taking slaves as block units of 40, and I've tried hordes of Clanrats, but I normally take 25-30 Clanrats and a weapon team.
Gutter Runners with poisoned attacks and slings
Doomwheel
Warplightning Cannon
Sometimes a Hellpit.

Anything else suffers from mix and match. Sometimes I'll have stormvermin, sometimes a horde of Plague Monks and a Furnace. Sometimes even some Nightrunners or Jezzails. Very, very occasionally but not recently Rat Ogres.
Things I've not used that often include Globadeers and Giant Rats.

As for playstyle, it suffers from a little inconsistency. I tend to advance quickly as I find most things outshoot me and outmagic me. Unfortunately I find that as soon as I get into combat they outfight me too. I've been trying to tarpit things down with slaves, but I've seen them die so quickly. In my last 3 games, my hellpit has died in the first turn because everyone takes flaming attacks and I almost always see the Lore of Life or Shadow when spellcasters are about. Maneuvering into flank charges is hard because I have fast Calvary or Calvary in general running down flanks, and terrain getting in the way. The Gutter Runners Sneaky Infiltrate of course to try and take out weapon teams, but the turn 2 Chance means they normally take a decent toll out of my army before they come in. I'm usually good at firing the Warplightning Cannon when I'm not misfiring, although last time I played High Elves I nearly just got up and walked away when I ran into a Calvary unit with a 1+ Armour save and a 2+ against all Magic. Watching them shrug off a S10 Cannon explosion like nothing is really demoralizing.

And the most important part. My dice rolls are atrocious. I roll low when I need to roll high and vice versa. Anything I could do to reduce the chances of my dice screwing me over would be very appreciated.[/quote


The thing about skaven is that the army is horribly dice dependent. You rely on your toys. I.E. Doomrocket, in most builds.

The one that doesn't is the bellstar, but I'd reserve that for competitive play.

And yeah, The Banner of the World Dragon is horrible to face. But you can always shove a hellpit without spikes in their face!

Bunkerbob: I have a vague idea what my opponents might bring, but their armies are pretty diverse, and most of the newer books can at least field different kinds of armies. My game against Empire last night was the first time I'd ever came across Demigryphs for example. I expected more infantry and gunlines from Empire and was greeted by an army with one big infantry unit and then cavalry and crossbowmen. It's hard to know what they take usually, although I can guess. The Warriors of Chaos players always seem to have Knights, the Empire and High Elves tend to have cavalry. Other armies are rare at the club I go to so I can't really comment there. And I'll look into the dice roll technique. I usually cup my hands, but I know of the other technique you describe.

wfr12n: I'll try and get a battle report for the next game. I could try and write one up for the game I did yesterday though as well. I think I remember everything that happened if you don't mind my awful drawing skills.

AllAboutGames: I've tried the bus sized Slaves too. Usually they're more central to my army though to try and tie things up, and I only do 40, not 50. I've tried both a horde of Stormvermin and a horde of Plague monks with furnace. I find the Plague Monks to be a lot more deadly, but either way my hordes suffer from the amount of magic people throw out. Too many "Take a test or die" spells that just don't have the negatives Plague does. The Assassin with Potion of Strength though... why didn't I think of this?

See this is probably my problem, I'm not a very good innovator. Again, it's my own fault. Bad habits I've picked up I really need to shake off.

Warptide: I've heard mixed things about the Screaming Bell. It's a nice model though.

Thank you all for your advice so far! I have to apologise, I don't normally get so down after a game, but this one was a pretty crushing loss and I figure it's about time I take steps to improve my play.

I can't offer much in the way of army advice, but I tell you that going in with a positive mindset is going to help. Lady luck's a bit promiscuous, so there's always the chance she'll, y'know, not screw you over. I used to believe my rolls were doomed to fail every game too. You just have to go in thinking that this time it'll be different.
That, and mitigate for poor luck. Run doubles of units if needs be. try to use as many straight +x/ -x Buffs and debuffs as possible, as opposed to +/- Dx. I realise this is rather difficult with Skaven, but you need as much security as you can get if your dice rolls tend to be (or feel) poor.

TL;DR: A positive attitude towards rolling usually helps, but try to mitigate rolls where possible, and plan for those rolls to go wrong to an extent.

I realise its a hard attitude to shift, but it's possible. Good luck man.

Bad dice rolls will occasionally cost people games, but usually it what causes it is little mistakes adding up (or big ones). Really good players minimize the odds that a few bad dice rolls will cost them the game.

One basic strategy you could work on is redirecting units you don't want to fight yet, and conversely clearing out enemy chaff before they can do the same to you. If you or the opponent don't play with chaff, simply consider what enemy units you would like to go against with your units. Play your game to give you favorable combats and your enemy unfavorable combats. If you are just placing units down and pushing them forward, oftentimes you will lose to a guy who is thinking about it more and it will be easy to blame bad dice for a few fights, rather than the decisions that led to those fights.

Granted with Skaven you will have random dice rolls screw certain units over or perform very well (eg WLC or Doomwheel), but certain units will perform very consistently (Seer on bell in unbreakable clanrats, Hellpit, plague monks)

Don't give up! Skaven are a truly nasty army when played right. Be sure to ask your opponents what you could've done better at the end of each game. Most people are glad to talk about the game they just played :3

Are you using chaff effectively? One of the things that really separates the men from the boys as it were is the use of chaff. While you may not be able to handle it as well as a more experienced player, even the odd use can really help to swing a game, especially against other players who don't use it.

If you need an explanation, just say and I (or one of the other forum members here) will go into more depth. Skaven have fantastic chaff, so you may as well utilise it.

I think I could use some info on Skaven chaff. I know about blocks of slaves but not really how to utilize them confidently. Same with the small units of Giant Rats people seem to talk about.

Like. How to position them. When to charge, when to flee, when to take a charge and hope I tarpit etc.

 zonino wrote:
I think I could use some info on Skaven chaff. I know about blocks of slaves but not really how to utilize them confidently. Same with the small units of Giant Rats people seem to talk about.

Like. How to position them. When to charge, when to flee, when to take a charge and hope I tarpit etc.

It's actually pretty simple. Advance them with the army, and when you need them to block that charge, push them out at an obnoxious angle. Flees should only be there if your units are out of overrun range, or it'll net you a flank charge for a combat unit.

Hmm. From what I see, you have an awful lot of expensive choices.
I like that you love trying out weapon teams, but those can be a very expensive points-wise.
Losing one or two Poisoned Wind Mortars can allow you to take a good amount of points.
Thanquol and Boneripper are a pretty expensive pair as well, as are any named characters. Considering you said you needed magic defence, I can see why you would want to keep a Grey Seer.
If the Hellpit isn't working for you, I'd say replace it with something else. Doomwheels and Warp-Lightning Cannons are not only cheaper, but if they work better, it might be a better investment.
Nightrunners, from what I've heard, are a worse investment than the other core choices.

One or two things that might help in bolstering your army.
Even though they look pretty staple, don't forget about rulebook magic items. Dispel Scrolls might be your friend for this case.
While I've never used them, Assassins look like and interesting choice for character (namely wizard) killing. Considering you can choose to hide one in a unit of clanrats can help as well.

Strategy wise:
You have a Doomwheel. This can make for a good early tarpit and crashing into a unit with a wizard in it should stop them from casting spells.
With a Grey Seer, not only will you be able to dispel, but Dreaded 13th is a Leadership or Die spell as well. Add more to the swarm right? If you don't like the Skaven spells, I believe you can replace one with Dreaded Thirteenth. Yes, it requires more effort to cast. If you do manage to cast it however, it's probably one of the most devastating leadership or die spells out there.


This is my opinion and I probably don't have as much experience as you do, so I don't know how well my advice would work.
Either way, I hope this helps!

 SkavenLord wrote:
Hmm. From what I see, you have an awful lot of expensive choices.
I like that you love trying out weapon teams, but those can be a very expensive points-wise.
Losing one or two Poisoned Wind Mortars can allow you to take a good amount of points.
Thanquol and Boneripper are a pretty expensive pair as well, as are any named characters. Considering you said you needed magic defence, I can see why you would want to keep a Grey Seer.
If the Hellpit isn't working for you, I'd say replace it with something else. Doomwheels and Warp-Lightning Cannons are not only cheaper, but if they work better, it might be a better investment.
Nightrunners, from what I've heard, are a worse investment than the other core choices.

One or two things that might help in bolstering your army.
Even though they look pretty staple, don't forget about rulebook magic items. Dispel Scrolls might be your friend for this case.
While I've never used them, Assassins look like and interesting choice for character (namely wizard) killing. Considering you can choose to hide one in a unit of clanrats can help as well.

Strategy wise:
You have a Doomwheel. This can make for a good early tarpit and crashing into a unit with a wizard in it should stop them from casting spells.
With a Grey Seer, not only will you be able to dispel, but Dreaded 13th is a Leadership or Die spell as well. Add more to the swarm right? If you don't like the Skaven spells, I believe you can replace one with Dreaded Thirteenth. Yes, it requires more effort to cast. If you do manage to cast it however, it's probably one of the most devastating leadership or die spells out there.


This is my opinion and I probably don't have as much experience as you do, so I don't know how well my advice would work.
Either way, I hope this helps!

Dreaded 13th is 4d6 dead models. Flat out. And you take a power scroll, and burn all warpstone tokens, and you can cast it on about 3 dice from your pool.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 SkavenLord wrote:
Hmm. From what I see, you have an awful lot of expensive choices.
I like that you love trying out weapon teams, but those can be a very expensive points-wise.
Losing one or two Poisoned Wind Mortars can allow you to take a good amount of points.
Thanquol and Boneripper are a pretty expensive pair as well, as are any named characters. Considering you said you needed magic defence, I can see why you would want to keep a Grey Seer.
If the Hellpit isn't working for you, I'd say replace it with something else. Doomwheels and Warp-Lightning Cannons are not only cheaper, but if they work better, it might be a better investment.
Nightrunners, from what I've heard, are a worse investment than the other core choices.

One or two things that might help in bolstering your army.
Even though they look pretty staple, don't forget about rulebook magic items. Dispel Scrolls might be your friend for this case.
While I've never used them, Assassins look like and interesting choice for character (namely wizard) killing. Considering you can choose to hide one in a unit of clanrats can help as well.

Strategy wise:
You have a Doomwheel. This can make for a good early tarpit and crashing into a unit with a wizard in it should stop them from casting spells.
With a Grey Seer, not only will you be able to dispel, but Dreaded 13th is a Leadership or Die spell as well. Add more to the swarm right? If you don't like the Skaven spells, I believe you can replace one with Dreaded Thirteenth. Yes, it requires more effort to cast. If you do manage to cast it however, it's probably one of the most devastating leadership or die spells out there.


This is my opinion and I probably don't have as much experience as you do, so I don't know how well my advice would work.
Either way, I hope this helps!

Dreaded 13th is 4d6 dead models. Flat out. And you take a power scroll, and burn all warpstone tokens, and you can cast it on about 3 dice from your pool.

Hmm. So would it be worth it in the end?

Zonino,

A few questions, and a little advice.

Questions:. How do you build your list? Is it all about the fluff or are you just looking to win? How do the people you play build thier lists? Can you give a couple of examples of your list maybe what you face in your next game? Post them here, we do not need the point values, Just list them out like others have. What you kit each modle/unit with. What point value do your games normally play at?

Advice. Go to Youtube, Search Skaven Battle reports. See what others are doing.

Spend 100 points on 4 units of Rat darts. These should never charge other units. when you place them on the field, place them 2x2x1. Use them like you would a large slave block, to mess up your opponents best attacking unit. This 100 points can be used to force your opponent’s super nasty unit to do nothing for up to 4 turns.

Do not over spend on your toys, a little goes along ways, Skaven excel because they can bring more bodies to the game. Not because their toys are the best. Like the old Orkz saying; “Boys before Toys.”

HellPit is one of the nastiest models in the game, If you know everyone is gunning for it use that to your advantage, put it on one side of your army and make them go after it while the rest of your army closes ground.

The best advice I can give you is to make a plan on what your build is going to do, then as you select units make sure that they fit that plan. But always remember that other then O&G you are the best at hurting yourself as much as you are hurting others.

 zonino wrote:
Hello people of Dakka Dakka. I come to you on my hands and knees, begging for help. You're about to see a grown man cry, so bare with me here.

I have been playing Skaven since I started playing Warhammer back in... 2003? So yeah. For over 10 years now. And in all that time, if I had to put my wins into a percentage, it would probably be less than 5%. For the most part I've not minded. It's a game, it's fuuuuun. But really, it's getting too much. It has become very painfully obvious that I'm doing something dreadfully wrong.

I'm not picky and I like trying things, so my army list chops and changes, but I always try and have a standard of at least a BSB and one or two big units. But it doesn't seem to matter what I try: Hordes, many units, Elites, Shooting, Magic. It all falls through. I understand the random nature of Skaven, but I'm no longer having fun, and I can't image it's fun for my opponents knowing they're going into any game against me as a free win.

So this is it. I want this to change. I'm going to turn around my luck and strengthen my gameplay. My next game is in two weeks against Ogres and I set myself this goal. I'll win, or I'm done. I'll quit the game, or at least take a break until the new Skaven book, but if that doesn't interest me... yeah... I'll be done.

So what I'll do here is list everything I have, and I want to hear everything you've got. What I should use, what to avoid, what do I need. I'm willing to buy some stuff in if needed. And I'm sorry if this seems mellow-dramatic, like I'm taking the game too seriously, but I just want to feel like I'm playing against my friends as an equal, and not as some whipping boy. Anyway, here's what I have:

Lords:
Grey Seer Thanquol and Boneripper (I tend to just use him as a Grey Seer.
3 Isle of Blood Warlords (No idea how I've accumulated so many)
Ikit Claw.

Heroes:
2 Chieftans
3 Warlock Engineers
1 Plague Priest (with Plague Furnace)
2 Assassins
1 Tretch Craventail

Core:
Roughly 250 Clanrats... if I had to count what, I'd say it's roughly about 100 with spears, the rest with hand weapons. About 40-50 of the hand weapon ones are in poor nick and tend to be used as slaves.
20 Nightrunners
20 Stormvermin
20 Giant Rats
2 Rat Swarms

Special:
9 Gutter Runners
Approx 60 Plague Monks
5 Censer Bearers
10 Rat Ogres (and by extention about 8 packmasters and one Skweel Gnawtooth)
5 Jezzails
5 Globadeers

Rare:
1 Hellpit Abomination
1 Doomwheel
1 Warplightning Cannon

Unbuilt:
A Warplightning/Plagueclaw Catapult model

Weapon Teams:
2 Poisoned Wind Mortars
3 Ratling Guns
2 Warpfire Throwers

And now a rundown of the issues I encounter.

Hordes get targeted by "every model takes test or die" spells. Wizards are everywhere and it's hard to avoid this.
The Hellpit has been useless. Everyone expects me to take it and they take flaming attacks out the wazoo.
I can't not misfire with weapons teams. The only team I can use consistently is the Ratling Gun by playing it safe.
I hate Skaven magic. It seems awful compared to everything else out there. I'm aware this won't be fixed until the new book, but I'm really worried that they won't make it as stupidly destructive as it should be. When every single army in the game can overcharge their spells, apart from the army who lore wise should be overcharging their spells, it's kinda demoralizing.

So yeah... there you have it. I don't know what to expect, but whatever help you have, I'll take it.

I'm almost in as bad of a position as you. I know how it feels to be losing so much and I never used to. Part of it is because the skaven book is now so old and has been an edition behind most of its army book lifespan (though it was good for the first couple years or so since its release). I found the newer the book I faced the worse I did and I usually did best against other outdated armies. That's not always the case as some sorta new armies could be beaten. It really depends what you take and what they take.

I feel like there are several contributing factors. The first is that since you're skaven you need a crap ton of guys. You seem to have that already but I don't.

As far as units go some people like censer bearers but I don't. They hit hard in the first combat of any melee but then they suck. Basically you need to get the job done and fast. Against anything higher than initiative 3 you would absolutely have to flank the enemy with these guys or they'll be dead before they even get to hit.

Rat ogres are overpriced as people say but they can kill one or two decently powered units and do it pretty handily actually. Thing is unless you find a way to protect them they will have to overrun after they win their combat if they do win since they're frenzied. The problem with this is then they are easily flanked and destroyed. Leadership is also fairly poor with rat ogres even with the general's leadership because 'strength in numbers' benefit for ranks doesn't do much with only one or two extra ranks.

Weapons teams are ok sometimes but honestly they're just not worth it. I've heard a veteran say the only type he takes are poisoned wind mortars and I'm seeing why now. Weapons teams are fragile but any decent opponent with even an average amount of shooting can get rid of them handily. I mean 5 guys on horses with bows could kill one off and get line of sight over slave units or anything else that would normally provide cover. The only way to block that is with rat ogres or a large target but you'd be crazy to try that. So pretty much if they can outrange you (which is easy with any type of archers and most types of shooting) and if they have line of sight (on a hill, in a building on a unit that elevates them above infantry, etc.) then your weapons team is most likely dead. Ratling guns don't do enough anymore, doom flayers are just a bad idea seeing as they absolutely will be hit by the enemy, warpfire throwers are awesome but their misfire chart is not and poisoned wind mortars are good vs armored units mostly. All that said most of the weapons teams are only good against almost entirely melee armies such as warriors of chaos, vampire counts, daemons, beastmen and maybe a couple others (they might do ok vs orcs and goblins because war machines will usually try to focus down your monsters but I could be wrong here).

Gutter runners can be good. I think I'm just not using mine right. The only real problem is that they can't go through any armor whatsoever. This makes it much harder to take down things like steam tanks and the arachnarok should you face it.

Rares are great. The abomination can be good but the random movement is also a pain. If you face any fast moving units they will try and move in your flank and force you off into nowhere. Your only real hope is to kill off that chaff with something like warp lightning spell spam, slaves with slings or gutter runners. The first and last one are better used elsewhere and the 2nd often doesn't do enough damage. The warp lightning cannons are good against various things. Sometimes you can even line up a shot that goes through a monster and hits a rank and file unit. It can be pretty awesome but the misfires do happen and the 1-2 result is very unforgiving.

Most of our core is good or at least according to other people. Clanrats are just there as a command bunker. Slaves are meant to be massed usually in big blocks but only 5 model ranks.

Most specials are considered bad. I don't really use jezzails much but poisoned wind globadiers just seem bad from what I've tried.

Most skaven magic needs boosted versions of their spells.

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I've tried some things myself. Sometimes I try warp lightning spell spam with three level 1 warlock with warpstone tokens on each guy (2 per guy is probably good). The screaming bell is probably a good idea. I've been trying out rat swarms to go with my shooting and magic and it helps somewhat since they don't block line of sight and you can use rat swarms to re-direct. They cause panic and are unstable but are skirmishers with Leadership 10 so they can go on your flanks easily and go through march block pretty easily as well. You can pretty much run them through the flanks and then go in an awkward position in front of the enemy while marching and move them any direction you wish with skirmishers free reform. People say they're expensive but in units of 2 I feel they pose enough of a threat to be annoying and have to be destroyed completely before they are stopped which can take a lot of shooting or waste enemy magic. Probably not the best thing to use since you could probably just tie an enemy up with slaves and then just shoot into them indefinitely but I feel it can be helpful and has a purpose. It's probably not the best thing but I think it can be alright.

I'm by no means an expert though so you may want to look towards others for advice. Some member I only just started seeing named 'Throt' is trying some similar things to me and using all sort of different units with seemingly decent success. Perhaps you could ask him/her what to do.

I had about 80% success rate with

Greyseer
BSB chieftan
Warlock with dispel

50 slaves
50 slaves
40 stormvermin
20 Night runners
1 packmaster 5 giant rats
1 packmaster 5 giant rats

3 jazzels
3 jazzels

then depending on what I need poisoned wind mortars for dwarfs I find work nice.

The for rare either a hell pit but I usually run 2 doomwheels to send in asap they usually die quick but gives me time to move into range.

Try plague spell it is in my opnion alot better then the other one...forget the name now lol.

When in doubt ADD MORE SLAVES!!!!!!!! skaven modo of life I had 200 slaves in 2 units 1 game just to use poisoned wind mortars/globadiers/warplightning cannon/jezzials/screaming bell

The thing to remember with Skaven is to add all the toys.

So a Seer with a Power scroll on Ruin.

A BSB with protective kit/magic banner, depending on the army build.

Level 1 engineer with the doomrocket and condenser.

Engineer with the Brass Orb.

Slaves.

Hellpit and cannons.

Some more great advice here. Thanks so much guys.

Cawizkid: If I'm honest, it's a mixture of both fluff and playing to win I guess. I mean I want to win, but the lists I make probably aren't as competitive as they could be. I don't mind that, as I believe my problem lies more in my positioning and tactics.

The games we play are normally 2k. Trying to fit larger than that into the 3 hours we get at the club I go to is hard, and even the 2k games can run on too long at times.

When using Rat Darts... should I be positioning them to force any chargers to close the door at awkward angles? That seems like what they would be there for. I do have a fondness for the toys but like you say, having more bodies is probably better. I have too much hassle with my own weapons misfiring and killing me more than the enemy. I've had 2 warpfire throwers and a Warp Lightning Cannon misfire on the same turn.

flamingkillamajig: I do like Rat Ogres, but I find them really weak for what they do. And GW's stupid contradictory rules with Packmasters and worse, Master Moulders really put me off them. Why does my 100 point Skweel Gnawtooth with a Whip have to stand at the front of the unit to get lanced or challenged?

OgreChubbs: I take it you run the Stormvermin as a Horde? What are the Nightrunners for may I ask? They don't feel worth it for the cost. Even if you get them into flanks their lack of any sort of save or strength has actually seen me lose combat because of the sheer number of wounds they took. On the other hand having them sling things doesn't seem like a bad idea.

thedarkavenger: I always forget the power scroll/13th Spell combo. I really should use it more considering just how much everyone else goes for their "roll against a stat or die" spells.

Watch Vidhammer Fantasy on YouTube. The guy on there plays skaven. He wins some, he loses some, but he talks about play style, pointers vs some opponents, and how to use some of the units.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fsqXD1RgBuA


It's worth seeing how well his units perform. Sometimes it's all systems go, sometimes it doesn't work at all.

Here are my two Warptokens:

- first, I'm sorry things have been rough. I've known several people in similar situations. Sure, some of them aren't the greatest tacticians. But, somehow, they seem to straight-up have worst luck than the average player. It's frustrating to watch.

- I've heard so many people say "(enter name of army here) is all about synergy", which makes me laugh. Like any army in the game can reliably field several disjointed components that don't work together at all and hope for good results.
The problem with Skaven is, the synergy of our units breaks down into two types of components:

1. tough and ineffective, like blocks of Slaves or Clanrats
2. fragile and deadly, like Weapon Teams.

There are a few exceptions, but that's the jist of it, yeah? So, if your opponent targets your #2 components successfully, you'll be in a tough spot.

- another thing about Skaven is that a handful of good rolls can seal the deal, without much your opponent can do about it. If your Doomrocket and both Warp Lightning Cannons land on-target turn 1, you've almost certainly crippled their army.

- I try to offer plenty of targets, and I try to put lots of worthless stuff between those targets and my opponent. My standard list usually goes something like this:

1 Grey Seer + toys (300ish)

1 Warlock Engineer + maybe some magic, but always always ALWAYS a Doomrocket (it's the best thing in the book)
1 Chieftain + battle standard and full protective gear (Armour of Destiny or the like)

30-40 Clanrats + shields (and only shields. Never spears)
30-40 Stormvermin + Stormbanner (second in awesomeness only to the Doomrocket)
50 Slaves- twice
5 Giant Rats and a Packmaster- four times

5-9 Gutter Runners with Poisoned Slings
30-40 Plague Monks, with the Plague Banner

1 Warp Lightning Cannon- twice (the single best unit. Few things in this game are so destructive, point-for-point. And if it blows up, 90pts isn't that big of a deal)
1 Hellpit Abomination (who usually gets into combat, thanks to the Stormbanner)

I've found that I can generally choose 50-75% of my fights, thanks to having more units than most armies. I usually have to give ground at certain points around the field, and I rarely DESTROY my opponent, but I am also rarely DESTROYED by them.

I'd like to read a battle report of your next game, if you'd be willing.

I'll try and get a battle report for the next game, however at the club I go to I'm going between a Fantasy League and 40k Campaign. It's hard going doing two though, and given the 7th ed 40k changes I'm really put off that side of the game. Still, that's another discussion. I'll do my best to remember a battle report.

 zonino wrote:
I'll try and get a battle report for the next game, however at the club I go to I'm going between a Fantasy League and 40k Campaign. It's hard going doing two though, and given the 7th ed 40k changes I'm really put off that side of the game. Still, that's another discussion. I'll do my best to remember a battle report.

If you want I'm also playing skaven pretty poorly. We could perhaps play on some online site so that we can play at all. I figure at least one of us will win and end our lose streak. Probably would end in a near tie ;P.

You know it's weird because I've heard some people talk about skaven as if they're the best army and yet I've heard more trouble about skaven lately than any of the other armies. Guess it's because our army is just outdated.

I used to play Skaven too. I still have my army but I'm more involved with 40k at the moment.

A problem I always had was cavalry and heavy cavalry. Eir movement of 7/8 allowed them to approach from the flanks. And no matter how I push out my slaves, they manage to break them and overrun. Or if I angled my slaves, they can choose to flank another unit which was not angled. Anybody else had the same problems as me? Basically flank protection.

And I am outdated, was playing with rules 1-2 editions ago. Steadfast just came out when I stopped so I'm not sure if steadfast was the answer.

 milkboy wrote:
I used to play Skaven too. I still have my army but I'm more involved with 40k at the moment.

A problem I always had was cavalry and heavy cavalry. Eir movement of 7/8 allowed them to approach from the flanks. And no matter how I push out my slaves, they manage to break them and overrun. Or if I angled my slaves, they can choose to flank another unit which was not angled. Anybody else had the same problems as me? Basically flank protection.

And I am outdated, was playing with rules 1-2 editions ago. Steadfast just came out when I stopped so I'm not sure if steadfast was the answer.

Monstrous cavalry aren't like normal cavalry in most ways. Monstrous cavalry seem to be like what cavalry were in 7th edition (supposedly they broke armies) and they're only run in units of 3 or so. They still suffer somewhat from being flanked but they have all the best parts of cavalry and monstrous infantry (or at least in 8th) rolled into one.

As far as cavalry and chariots go just go for steadfast. Normally it's very hard for cavalry of any kind to negate ranks from a flank so you should have 'strength in numbers' too.

The cavalry battle is weird with steadfast. Generally you won't kill much of any but if you have enough ranks you'll both be stuck for forever. I suppose you can flank them but chances are that'd open you up to a flank and that can be worse. I suppose it's more about occupying them with cheap slaves. Usually your slaves should cost less. Some might use jezzails into them and I think they don't randomize shots anymore so your jezzails would hit dead on. In my opinion randomization should've stayed except in the case of templates.

Then again I'm having serious trouble with skaven and haven't really faced many monstrous cavalry so I don't really know.