Troublesome Ebay Buyers...

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**Trench-Raider**

*upon reflection, I felt this was out of place in the main Ebay thread, so I started a new discussion*

OK, allow me to vent for a moment....

On Monday evening, I decided to raise a little cash and clear out some excess toys by putting up some Ebay auctions. One of the lots was a small lot of painted historical figures for a game I do not play on a regular basis any more. I put the auctions up and went to bed. Sometime during the night, someone took advantage of the very fair "Buy it Now" price I put in place on the above auction and come the morning I noticed the sale. I sent the buyer a message thanking him for the purchase and stating that I would drop the figures in the mail in a day or two, as soon as I could get them safely packed and could get down down to the post office.

So far so, good, right?

Well, a few hours later, I recieve a rudely worded message from the buyer lamenting how he "hates it when he pays imediately and it takes days for an item to ship". I send the fellow a reply back, apologizing for the slight delay and explaining that the lack of a post office branch near my home and my busy work schedule makes my trips to the post office rare. Also that I had originally planned to ship all my Ebay auctions at once and that his use of the "Buy it Now" had caught me off guard. Not wanting to anger the guy too much, I packed the figures up that night after getting home from work and made a special trip to the post office the following day. I sent the buyer a message telling him that his figures were on the way.

That should have satisfied him, right?

Wrong.
He freeks out and all but accuses me of lying to him, pointing out that not only did I fail to provide tracking information (something the buyer neither requested nor paid for), but he also stated that I had yet to change the status of the item to "shipped" on the Ebay listing. (he's right, as I had not done that at the time of my email to him.)

At this point, I'm done talking to this guy. I won't reply to any more of his messages until the item actually arrives. I halfway wish that I not actually shipped out the figures already, so I could just refund the guy's money and relist the item, citing an inability to close the deal.

The worst part is, given how touchy the guy has been so far, I'm holding my breath until he gets the figures. He strikes me as the sort who will freek out at the sight of a bent bayonet or a figure coming dislodged from it's base in shipping and file Paypal complaint, so I'm not touching the money until he indicates the figures are there safe and sound.

It's a fairly minor thing, all things considered, but unreasonable buyers drive me nuts. Buyers, in my opinion, have more responsibilities than just to provide prompt payment. They should also be decent, reasonable, and patient people as well.

It's times like this that I truely regret the fact that Ebay no longer permits sellers to give neutral and negative feedback to buyers. the current enviorment gives them lisence to behave as they want with little fear of consequences for their actions

Ah well.

TR

**Leo_the_Rat**

You should always ship with proof of delivery. Otherwise the guy could just claim that he never received your package and get a full refund as well as keep your models.

**Polonius**

Yeah, eBay has a small percentage of just terrible buyers. They are, thankfully, a very small percentage, but they will never be pleased. You just need to make your peace with the fact that you'll at some point not only lose the auction item, but have to refund their money and still get dinged with negative feedback. It's cost of doing business.

I once got negative feedback for not including flying bases with a lot of tau drones. Now, there weren't bases in the picture, and my auction said that only what is shown was included. Didn't matter. The buyer felt they should have been included. Negative feedback, hold on the payment. At least I got to keep the cash (all $20 of it).

Keep in mind that the flea market days of ebay are over. They're in the powerseller business, and casual sellers are just a pain to them. eBay is still the best way to maximize your sale price, but is increasingly not worth it unless sheer cash is all you care about.

**Riquende**

I don't sell on ebay any more, as the last couple of times I've had hassle with buyers, and ebay's terms are now very favourable to the buyer's side.

It's shame, as it means that private sellers are being forced off the site, meaning ebay is becoming more and more a marketplace for shops. This in turn leads buyers to expect shop-level service, further causing aggro for private sellers... so on, so on.

**Talizvar**

There will be many "Alpha" (=narcissistic) types out there that look at any form of communication as a means to "kick the dog" or just to show who is boss or try to force a "deal".

Been there, done that, dot the i's and cross the t's and do not feed the troll.

OP, you did the right thing, less communication is better at that point. Delivery confirmation is definitely the way to go since people like that will happily take the shipment and claim it was not received to see what else they can get out of you.

It is pretty much like anything in life, learn from it and do some reasonable risk management.

But yes, it is a shame you have to put up with this stupidity with the way the system works at this time.

**Swan-of-War**

Karma will come 'round my friend, just wait.

I had a buyer leave neutral feedback on a sale claiming that I "shipped slow w/no explanation" - I had shipped the very next day after payment using the method exactly described. I received absolutely zero communication from the buyer so this comment was a surprise. Ebay, of course, would only allowed me to leave positive feedback as a means to protect the buyer.

Anyway, months later I noticed that they were bidding again on one of my auctions. I gladly deleted their bid multiple times and received a message asking why. Told them exactly why I didn't want their business and they claimed that their brother shared their account and it must have been him who left the neutral feedback.

Don't care, pound sand, auction goes to a more reputable bidder.

**inquisitorlewis**

Hi. Unfortunately it sounds like you found one of those 1 in a 1,000 buyers. While this transaction may have gone south, I can lend some insights on how to better do sales on ebay, and how to best protect yourself. I am a top rated/ power seller on ebay, and have been in that status for the last 3 years, so I do have some experience when it comes to ebay.

The first thing that you want to do in your listing is to state a proper handling time. A statement of handling time protects you from buyers that insist on immediate shipping. If they failed to read the item description, and terms of the sale, it is on them as the buyer, not on you as the seller.

Shipping with tracking is the most important thing you can do for any sale on ebay. With a valid tracking number you are protected under paypals seller protection policy. If you can provide proof of delivery, than the buyer cannot say he never received the item. This is also the policy for international transactions as well. USPS has made some vast improvement over the last year or 2. One of the biggest changes is edelcon on international first class. Finally we have delivery confirmation on international first class packages.

In your situation here is my best recommendation for shipping. Start using the small priority flat rate boxes. You can order them for free directly through USPS, and they will be delivered right to your door. Since you are using a flat rate box, it saves you from having to weigh out your item, in order to ship it. Most people go to the PO to do their shipping because they lack a proper postal scale. With the flat rate boxes, you don't need to enter a weight for domestic shipments, as it all ships at a flat rate. International is the same, but you need to enter a weight due to customs.

Once you have your boxes the rest is super easy to do efficiently. Instead of having to run to the PO to do shipping try this instead. Do your shipping directly through the ebay interface. This gives you a few benefits. Your buyer will automatically get the notification that his item has shipped. The tracking number will also be automatically uploaded into his purchase history. So now you have solved the issue of tracking and notifying your customer that the item has shipped.

Your next problem is getting to the PO. Well guess what my friend? You no longer need to go to the PO.

You now have 2 options for getting your package in the mail. USPS will pick up any priority mail, at your address, free of charge. It is one of the features of priority shipping. Now this probably won't be what route you choose, due to you being at work instead of your home. So here is the 2nd and easiest of the 2 things to do. Just find a blue mail box. Shopping strips, outside of apt complexes, etc. They are all over the place. The flat rate boxes fit nicely through the mail slot, and those boxes are normally checked 3 times a day. You can find exact pickup hours listed on each box. You will also see a notification informing you that any stamped package over 13 ounces must be handed over the counter at a USPS location (this is due to potentially deadly devices being sent through the mail). Ignore that notification. It is only for letters using stamps. You have used an electronic label, that shows exactly who you are.

I realize this won't help you on this transaction, but it may come in handy in the future. Hopefully other members read this, and also take my advice. Should you have any questions, feel free to pm me, or ask on this thread. I will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

**jason1977**

^ I agree.

I have bought a few items from a guy in Florida who lists that he only has a Harley and ships everything the first Saturday after getting payment. If the buyer dosent read your T&C on shipping its their fault.

**inquisitorlewis**

One last thing about shipping through ebay. I use peel and stick labels, so I don't have to tape over my label. If you use regular paper to print a label, be sure not to tape over the tracking barcode.

**pretre**

inquisitorlewis wrote:
One last thing about shipping through ebay. I use peel and stick labels, so I don't have to tape over my label. If you use regular paper to print a label, be sure not to tape over the tracking barcode.

Why is this? I've taped over barcodes for years and never had a problem.

Also, there are some great posts above about tracking. Other than requiring tracking, he was just being silly.

**inquisitorlewis**

pretre wrote:
inquisitorlewis wrote:
One last thing about shipping through ebay. I use peel and stick labels, so I don't have to tape over my label. If you use regular paper to print a label, be sure not to tape over the tracking barcode.

Why is this? I've taped over barcodes for years and never had a problem.

Also, there are some great posts above about tracking. Other than requiring tracking, he was just being silly.

I was just repeating what ebay and usps tell you when shipping. They request you to not tape over barcodes. I assume that they may not always scan as well with the tape over the bars.

**warboss**

inquisitorlewis wrote:
USPS has made some vast improvement over the last year or 2. One of the biggest changes is edelcon on international first class. Finally we have delivery confirmation on international first class packages.

That is a nice change. After "losing" an expensive squad in an international purchase (no idea if the bidder lied or if they truly were lost in the mail), I stopped doing anything international other than buying. Strangely, I get tracking on cheap international packages sent to the US but didn't previously have the option of getting cheap tracking from the US. That is a nice change. Is there still a very low weight limit on international first class packages?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trench-Raider wrote:

The worst part is, given how touchy the guy has been so far, I'm holding my breath until he gets the figures. He strikes me as the sort who will freek out at the sight of a bent bayonet or a figure coming dislodged from it's base in shipping and file Paypal complaint, so I'm not touching the money until he indicates the figures are there safe and sound.

Given his previous actions, you really should expect some form of forced discount attempt by this buyer. Just prepare for it and ask for pics of everything. A buyer once told me that multiple items broke despite my bubble wrap packing so I asked for detailed hires pics before refunding a portion of the price. I suspect he was lying as he dropped the complaints (not yet a claim on ebay but just messages) as I think he knows he would have to break the models for the picture and it wasn't worth the few saved dollars. In the end, asking for pics won't help too much as the third world ebay support staff are completely inept. The one time I used them to remove inappropriate feedback (lies and foul language disguised as "positive" feedback for me from a notoriously BAD ebay seller in Texas), they instead removed MY FEEDBACK to her and left hers. Basically, they did the exact OPPOSITE of what I complained about. In any case, ebay doesn't want your hobby and garage sale items for sale and they've been steadily trying to screw over the small sellers that made the business into what it is today during the 1990's. Keep your expectations low and expect to be disappointed nonetheless. I no longer sell on ebay (despite not getting a negative during my time as a seller) and only very rarely buy when the deal is really good.

**inquisitorlewis**

warboss wrote:
That is a nice change. After "losing" an expensive squad in an international purchase (no idea if the bidder lied or if they truly were lost in the mail), I stopped doing anything international other than buying. Strangely, I get tracking on cheap international packages sent to the US but didn't previously have the option of getting cheap tracking from the US. That is a nice change. Is there still a very low weight limit on international first class packages?

There is some limit, but I am not sure what it is off hand. It is at least 4 pounds though. Maybe more.

**Swan-of-War**

jason1977 wrote:
^ I agree.

I have bought a few items from a guy in Florida who lists that he only has a Harley and ships everything the first Saturday after getting payment. If the buyer dosent read your T&C on shipping its their fault.

I've seen this guy's auctions in the past and would never buy from him. Such negativity - I'd expect to get everything stuffed into an old shoe box with no dunnage and told "tough sh**"

**Breotan**

I never contact the buyer unless he/she messages me with a question first. You have a few days leeway to get stuff in the mail anyway so why make a issue of it with your buyer?

Just put the package in the mail with a tracking number, or signature confirmation if it's an expensive auction, and update eBay with the tracking number so the seller can track the package himself. Usually that's all you need.

**lord_blackfang**

Swan-of-War wrote:
Karma will come 'round my friend, just wait.

It just did.

Anyone remember back when Trenchie sold an army on eBay, then took out it for one last game and dropped everything on the floor?

**Alpharius**

I don't remember this - are you certain that happened?

**warboss**

Alpharius wrote:
I don't remember this - are you certain that happened?

I have no idea what happened there but it piqued my interest so I searched his posts for "ebay" and found this interesting thread by the OP that was locked long ago...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/232133.page

I've said it before, but I must just be an idiot magnet as I seem to come into contact with them more than my fair share. I suppose it's just my winning personality. I also must say that although 99% of my Ebay transactions have been made without a flaw I have had a few bad expereinces and come into contact with some shady characters and fools. But this weekend I ran into a situation that is a first for me....a seller that blocked me for no apparent reason at all.

Ok, a little background to put this into context. I'm not nearly as well known here on Dakka as I am on other sites, so to fully understand this allow me a paragraph to do so. I'm not the most popular person over at Warseer. I'm not going to bore you all with the details, but I had an extended conflict with the management of the site back when it was still "Portent" that left a bad taste in many people's mouths. When that site went under and Warseer was created, I was permitted another chance, was allowed to post on the new site and start afressh, and have had a good record on the site since. But some people have held a grudge about the regretable incidents of the past and simply cannot let it go. Thus, although I get along with the majority of members, there are Warseer staffers and rank and file members who have "issues" with me. I like to call these guys "Trenchie haters"...and amusingly there are a couple of these who have migrated to this site. But that's another subject.

One of these clowns is a Warseer staffer who posts under the name "t-tauri".

As I mentioned in a couple of threads, I'm always in the market for older figures and right now I am specificly buying up old Khorne marines for my next project. To make a long story short, I noticed that t-tauri was selling a couple of figure lots on Ebay that I would not mind owning. Unaware of how pathalogical this guy's Trenchie hatred was, I shot him a PM over at Warseer and asked him about the lots. Who knows. He might hace more he would like to add to the ones he was selling. Well he gave me a terse reply that I was on his "blocked bidder" list and that I was not to bid on his auctions. He also referenced a defunct Ebay account that I had closed four years ago. (I closed my old Ebay account and changed to an unrelated name when I was having trouble with Portent because I had someone who was trying to "bid block" my auctions)

Well, this irritated me.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a conservative. I'm very respectful of authority, but I hate it when someone with NO authority ver me tries to tell me what to do and I usually go out of my way to thumb my nose at those who try to do so. So I decided to bid on this guy's auctions. Under the letter of the rules I figured I was covered as my current Ebay accounts were NOT on his blacked bidder list and that he had never used the Ebay messaging system to inform me that I was an unwelcome bidder. Plausable deniability is a good thing don't you know?

Come Sunday morning I bid on his auctions and win one of them imediately. Presumably he recognized my email address (which contains the words "trenchraider") and canceled the bid on the other one before it closed, citing the (incorrect) excuse that I was on his blocked list. I'm not going to bore you all with the details, but an angry email exhange ensued in which t-tauri showed himself to not only be a childish fool, but a complete net.coward who would not explain his reasoning for his bizzarre behavior. Moreover, he refused to honor his responsibility as a seller. He stated flat out that he would not be shipping the figures. I tried twice to forward payment via Paypal, and twice he "refunded" the money.

Well, the 11th will be the day on which the time limit after which one can file a "non-shipping seller" complaint will have pased. I will certainly be filing with the claims department on the issue. I may not win, but it's worth a try. I will certainly be leaving some well deserved negative feedback.

The thing that really amazes me is that I have done nothing to really warrent this bizzare behavior on his part. I went back and checked all three of my Ebay accounts (my old canceled one, as well as my current buying and selling accounts) and I have never had a single transaction with this cat, good bad or indifferent. Not a one. Therefore the only reason I could see that he would have blocked my bidding (which he did not do until after I won an auction in any event) would be an old grudge for my problems on Portent. I suppose my money is not good enough for him. Principles are an admirable thing...but sometimes it just turns into childishness as t-tauri has proven.

Ah well.
The thing is that he has not done anything of substance. I'll probably wind up with the figures I won anyway. Even if Ebay does not find in my favor he will probably eventually put them back up for auction. (he's the latest entry on my "favorite sellers" list) I'll just have a friend bid on them next time. It would would probably be a hoot to then take a photo of me holding them and forward it to t-tauri!

TR

Purposely bidding on someone's stuff when you've had a problem with them in the past and you're on their blocked bidder list so you make a separate account to circumvent that? And then try to have a friend do the same? Very poor form indeed...

**darkcloak**

I agree with you, especially in light of my own online troubles!

I always try to be polite and I treat people the way I expect to be treated, but sometimes it just isn't enough. As a buyer I have learned that sometimes you have to put your foot down and stand up for yourself, especially in this age of anonymity. This also applies to the seller as well. You can't let that guy be a dick to you for no reason, and if he is being a jerk like you say he is, let that be reflected in your feedback.

And don't worry about your own feedback, most people with brains can tell the good ebay sellers from the bad ones. Apparently not me though! Haha!

**Formosa**

No it's not poor form, if genuinely did nothing wrong why is be being blacklisted with no recourse of an explanation, that seems pretty damn unfair and childish.

**DarkTraveler777**

Fools and net cowards, the scourges of eBay!

I have recently started selling on eBay again and it is a source of weekly anxiety due to the problems people have already voiced in this thread. I would love for an alternative to eBay, but even dedicated trading boards like Bartertown, or the Swap Shop here, don't generate nearly the interest as a standard eBay auction so I feel stuck using that site or else sitting on the items I want to sell.

**pretre**

I don't know about that. Between Dakka, Bartertown and my local forum, I sell like 90% of my stuff. I only recently used eBay because they gave me a no fees offer and I wanted to ditch some stuff that I'd been sitting on for a while.

**warboss**

Formosa wrote:
No it's not poor form, if genuinely did nothing wrong why is be being blacklisted with no recourse of an explanation, that seems pretty damn unfair and childish.

And the response of making a separate account and saying that your friends will shill bid on their items is even MORE childish. Obviously they had some issue between them (whether related to general forum shenannigans or some financial interaction) to cause him to be blacklisted by the seller. Also, something is fishy about that "alternate" account becoming the primary one with the original abandoned which makes me think there wasn't just a single solitary problem (backed up by the dropped army comment that started this line of questioning). Why on earth, if you know someone really doesn't like you, would you go out of your way to engage in a financial transaction with them using duplicitous means? That is the ebay equivalent of trolling or sock puppeting in forum parlance. Remember... we're getting only one side of the story and despite that bias it still smells fishy (in regards to the old quote above... not the original new story in this thread)

**lord_blackfang**

I had to rummage around Google a bit, turns out this happened back in Warseer days. Good read tho.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?44921-Yet-more-Ebay-woes

**warboss**

lord_blackfang wrote:
I had to rummage around Google a bit, turns out this happened back in Warseer days. Good read tho.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?44921-Yet-more-Ebay-woes

The part about his policy of bad feedback "blackmail" (Trench Raider's EXACT words) is particularly poignant given the comments in the OP about being unable to leave bad feedback to abusive buyers. While I wholeheartedly agree that buyers should be able to receive negative feedback, that is an example of why the policy of only "positive" feedback was instituted (in addition obviously to encouraging buyers to bid and generate selling fees for ebay at the expense of sellers of course). Was the negative feedback a bit harsh? Sure.. but the buyer didn't cause ANYTHING in that situation and the fault lies squarely with the seller for damaging his own items. The buyer would have been a fool to just take the story of broken minis at face value especially if the items sold at one bid at the minimum price or at a large discount from retail. I've had several sellers in the past 15 years try to weasel out of sales when the bidding didn't go as high as they wanted and they didn't bother with a reserve price; I'm not saying that was the case there but rather that the seller has a reason to be very suspicious until iron clad proven otherwise.

This doesn't have any bearing on the details of the transaction in this thread of course but is an interesting anecdote given the "karma" comments above. In any case, apologies for a bit of a tangent and I'll be largely bowing out of the conversation at this point.

**DarkTraveler777**

pretre wrote:
I don't know about that. Between Dakka, Bartertown and my local forum, I sell like 90% of my stuff. I only recently used eBay because they gave me a no fees offer and I wanted to ditch some stuff that I'd been sitting on for a while.

My wording was vague. MY experience with Bartertown and Dakka's swap shop has been that items will sit for multiple weekly cycles before selling (or sometimes not selling at all) but if I list the items on eBay they typically sell with the initial auction and don't require a re-listing. This is especially true for painted models and specifically professionally painted models (as in commission painted). I rarely get any bites on Bartertown or Dakka when listing painted armies. Throw those same models up on eBay and they will sell and often for much more than my own asking prices on various forums. eBay sucks, but it does generate enough money that it makes it hard to completely abandon the site when better alternatives are not available.

I am glad your experiences have been better with alternative selling venues. Mine haven't been. If I want to move something eBay is almost a sure thing with Bartertown being the next best option and Dakka bringing up the lonely rear. I haven't tried Craigslist because, well, it's Craigslist.

**pretre**

Yeah, I wouldn't use CL. I agree that eBay is faster, but I can generally get a better price if I let it sit a couple weeks on Dakka/BT. Being a BT plus member helps turnaround as well.

I don't sell a lot of pro-paint though, so my experience is definitely different.

**derek**

So, I've got a bit of thing along these lines, but as a buyer myself. I want to start out by saying that I never expect right away shipping, as a seller myself I always state that unless it's a weekend I try my best to get it out within 48 hours of payment clearing, in the last 5 years or so I've only ever had one payment held over by paypal for any length of time but it is still the reason I have the cleared payment caveat. I think 2-3 days turnaround is pretty reasonable and I try to avoid auctions with any longer than that.

I was recently shopping for an X-Wing Miniatures Falcon, but didn't want to have to spend more to pick one up from Mini Market or DGI with free shipping, so I went the ebay route. I managed to pick one up for around the same price as I would have paid from my usual online shopping venues, but I didn't notice that the seller had a super long handling and shipping time. Whatever my bad, I figured I'd just wait it out. To my surprise the item was marked as shipped about 4 days after purchase. No tracking information provided. So I started the waiting game. The seller is in a state that touches mine (it's a comic shop in Kentucky, I live in Missouri), so I figured anywhere from 2-5 days. I gave them 10 before I sent the first mess through ebay asking if they had any kind of tracking information, seeing as it'd been 10 days since they'd marked the item shipped. They gave me some story about how USPS strangely didn't provide them one, and they weren't sure why it hadn't arrived but they would contact the post office, I thanked them for the reply and said I'd wait til the following week to follow up, since the 10 day message happened to fall on a Friday. I waited until Tuesday to send them a message asking for more information (14 days), which they replied with a message about the post office having no idea why I never got it, they claim it was sent flat rate (which I don't believe the USPS has any non priority flat rate options which ALWAYS has tracking info, and should have taken the 2 days) but they are still unable to provide me with any kind of proof of shipment and say that they may need to claim insurance on the item. I tell them I'll give them til that Thursday for the item to arrive and left it at that. Well as is probably apparent, it is Thursday, mail has come and gone and I've got nothing, so I wrote them back saying that I don't really feel out of line 16 days after they said they shipped (which they've provided no proof of) to just ask for a refund. I didn't threaten negative feedback, I haven't opened an ebay dispute yet, I want to see what they're going to do. Is 16 (20 total from purchase) days a reasonable time frame for a buyer to wait? Or should I have given them longer?

**inquisitorlewis**

Open a dispute. Even as someone that sells far more than I buy, it's the best advice.

**Trench-Raider**

Tiresome off topic trolling by a couple of folks aside, it's been an interesting thread. I'm glad my frustrated rant prompted such a discussion. In particular the tips and words of wisdom by "inquisitorlewis" are well taken. I don't do much selling on Ebay these days, (in reality these current auctions are the first in over a year) but at the very least I'm going to follow his tip of specificly spelling out intended shipping times in future auctions to head off that sort of trouble.

But in general, I'm going to start distancing myself from Ebay selling, as I too have noticed the site's decline in recent yeas that some here have pointed out. In particular, I have a couple of full armies that I'm going to off-load in the near future as part of TR's "Screw 7th Edition Clearance Sale". These will probably go on Dakka's swap forum. Look for, amongst other things, a big nicely painted Imperial Fist army at a bargain basement price.

TR