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Ok, there is a situation explained in the Beastmen FAQ that ""A Cygor MAY direct his attacks onto a standard bearer with a magic banner to get his re-rolls to hit"" but then as per BRB, if the standard bearer would be killed we assume someone else picks the banner up.

Question is though,

Could Malekith direct his attacks onto the standard bearer, in the hope that his HITS (before rolling wounds), on a 4+, destroy one random magic item carried by the target, which if a Magic Banner, is the only magic item..?
Sure the unit will still count as having a Standard, but not the magic banner...

YOu can only allocate attacks to models in base that have different stats, such as champions. The standard bearer does not have different stats compared to a RNF model.

The Cygor's ability really only works against a BSB with a Magic Standard.

Saldiven, not really, since the Cygor could allocate against a BSB anyway (due to being a character) so there is no need for any distinction, thats my point...

Plus, then the FAQ would have said "Battle Standard Bearer", not the following:

Q: Can Cygors allocate their attacks on a unit’s standard bearer with
a magic banner to get re-rolls to hit? (p49)
A: Yes.

You're operating under the misapprehension that GW FAQ authors have any understanding of the rules.

ok, so I come up with a counter argument to your point and you respond with what is essentially sticking your fingers in your ears going "rules have to be written wrongly then"??

It quite clearly states in that faq "Unit Standard, not BSB, not Standard Bearer, but UNIT. Therefore, because it makes that distinction, you decide that they have to have done it wrong?

The cygor can target standard bearers because it explicitly states that the model can in the FAQ. Other models cannot. Malekith is bound by the normal targetting restrictions.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
The cygor can target standard bearers because it explicitly states that the model can in the FAQ. Other models cannot. Malekith is bound by the normal targetting restrictions.

This is a reasonable interpretation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YOu can only allocate attacks to models in base that have different stats, such as champions. The standard bearer does not have different stats compared to a RNF model.

So take on of the many items/effects that modifies stats on another model, and make sure that character is also touching the standard bearer.
Other Tricksters shard changes a models save, which is a stat.
In theory, you could have the Destroyer take out the Banner of the World Dragon. It would be epic. And fluffy. Forge the Narrative.

-Matt

Precisely my point Matt, this has nothing at all to do with removing as a casualty, as there is no way you can specifically kill a standard. Here is another way of looking at it.

Irongut bus with any magic banner, full command in front.

IG IG IG
IGs IGc IGm (120mm wide, 3 bases)
M E E E E E
E E E E E E (120mm wide, 6 bases)

Malekith is ONLY in base contact with the standard bearer. As per your interpretation, he is treated as fighting the unit, despite only being able to swing at a gut that holds a magic item he could destroy, he cannot destroy it as he cannot 'direct his attacks' onto the standard...

Malekith is plenty awesome enough. A 2+ Ward save against non-magical attacks, and a sword that breaks magic weapons? Uh...yes please.

So, yeah, the Cygor gets to, because his FAQ says so.
...but I suppose Matt might be on to something, there. How does allocating attacks read, exactly? If you can only target models with a different Stat Entry, you're out of luck. But if it's just models with different stats, I guess an item like the Other Trickster's Shard would work, assuming the unit has a Ward save...?

Warpsolution wrote:
Malekith is plenty awesome enough. A 2+ Ward save against non-magical attacks, and a sword that breaks magic weapons? Uh...yes please.

So, yeah, the Cygor gets to, because his FAQ says so.
...but I suppose Matt might be on to something, there. How does allocating attacks read, exactly? If you can only target models with a different Stat Entry, you're out of luck. But if it's just models with different stats, I guess an item like the Other Trickster's Shard would work, assuming the unit has a Ward save...?

And not to mention that the rulebook states that the standard bearer can only be removed if it's only that model and the champion remaining.

DarkAvenger, the case in question has nothing to do with KILLING the standard bearer, it has to do with hitting him... Im fully aware, it even says in the rulebook that if the standard dies then another chump picks up the flag, but if I can hit the standard then the magical aspect of the standard is broken. The actual standard bearer isnt killed...

 japehlio wrote:
DarkAvenger, the case in question has nothing to do with KILLING the standard bearer, it has to do with hitting him... Im fully aware, it even says in the rulebook that if the standard dies then another chump picks up the flag, but if I can hit the standard then the magical aspect of the standard is broken. The actual standard bearer isnt killed...

If the standard bearer isn't dead, neither is the standard. As you can't directly hit or kill him, you can't break the banner.

Um...I don't think there's actually any hard evidence of that line of thought.
Regular magic items can't be broken because the wielder can be killed. They can be broken because there are rules that say they can be broken, totally separate of the wielder's state.

Warpsolution wrote:
Um...I don't think there's actually any hard evidence of that line of thought.
Regular magic items can't be broken because the wielder can be killed. They can be broken because there are rules that say they can be broken, totally separate of the wielder's state.

Except for the fact that you can't physically declare any attacks on a standard bearer, as he has the same profile as a generic RnF model.

So. If you can't declare any attacks on him, you can't remove the banner.

He doesnt, he costs 10 points more. Points cost is part of the profile of a model...

Also, to your point that if the standard bearer isnt dead then neither is the standard, Destroyer doesnt need to kill anybody to destroy items, just hit them.

Furthermore, Destroyer states that any destroyed item counts as a mundane item of the same type, ergo, magic standard simply counts as a standard.

You can attack a champion, because his stat line is different. You can't do that to a standard bearer. You cannot physically attack the standard bearer to destroy the banner. The cygor is an exception to this, as the FAQ allows it to.

TDA is right here. Unless you got a USR that explicitely allows you to hit the standard bearer, you cannot allocate any hits to it (and unless it's the BSB ofc). The standard bearer is not a unique model, it's a "marker" for your unit to have a standard, similar to the war machine crew.

And no, points cost isn't part of a model's profile.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Except for the fact that you can't physically declare any attacks on a standard bearer, as he has the same profile as a generic RnF model.

So. If you can't declare any attacks on him, you can't remove the banner.

Sigh. Yes. Agreed. Duh. That's why, as Matt said above, you get an item to change the stats of models in contact with the character.

 japehlio wrote:
He doesnt, he costs 10 points more. Points cost is part of the profile of a model...

My first reaction is a very strong "no way". At the very least, it's a huge stretch, and you'll need to back that up with some proof. Of which I highly doubt you'll find.

He cannot back it up.

BRB p.4 clearly defines "profile".

Care to share that wisdom, where all can see? Then we can put that part of the argument to rest and move on to other matters.

What options are out there that would change the stats of models in base-to-base contact?

By this logic, things like Arcane Unforging wont work on standards, becasue that individually targets a model. I get the whole standard bearer cannot be removed as a casualty thing, thats never in question at all.

Based on my sketch above, Surely since Malekith is only in contact with the standard, he can destroy the banner? It doesnt matter one jot if the bearer lives or dies...

Been a long time since I've seen someone try to rules lawyer this hard in Dakka.

Reminds me of the old days.

 japehlio wrote:
By this logic, things like Arcane Unforging wont work on standards, becasue that individually targets a model. I get the whole standard bearer cannot be removed as a casualty thing, thats never in question at all.

Based on my sketch above, Surely since Malekith is only in contact with the standard, he can destroy the banner? It doesnt matter one jot if the bearer lives or dies...

He cannot target the standard bearer. How is he supposed to hit it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:
Been a long time since I've seen someone try to rules lawyer this hard in Dakka.

Reminds me of the old days.

Then this thing will blow your mind:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/601859.page#6963761

@Sigvatr:

Some people don't seem to grasp that in 99%+ of cases, if you're the only person arguing on one side of a rules interpretation, it's not because you're somehow smarter than everyone else.

It's almost certain that it's because you're wrong.

 japehlio wrote:
By this logic, things like Arcane Unforging wont work on standards, becasue that individually targets a model. I get the whole standard bearer cannot be removed as a casualty thing, thats never in question at all.

Based on my sketch above, Surely since Malekith is only in contact with the standard, he can destroy the banner? It doesnt matter one jot if the bearer lives or dies...

Of course it can't. Because it has to kill the standard bearer to do it. And if you kill the model, the spell ends.

Malekith can't, because he cannot physically declare his attacks onto the standard bearer to hit him/her.

 japehlio wrote:
By this logic, things like Arcane Unforging wont work on standards, becasue that individually targets a model. I get the whole standard bearer cannot be removed as a casualty thing, thats never in question at all.

Based on my sketch above, Surely since Malekith is only in contact with the standard, he can destroy the banner? It doesnt matter one jot if the bearer lives or dies...

No. Not at all. This isn't a matter of "can Rule X target Magic Item Y", this is a question of "can Model Y target model with Magic Item Z".

So, under normal circumstances, no. Malekith can't direct his attacks at the standard bearer.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Of course it can't. Because it has to kill the standard bearer to do it. And if you kill the model, the spell ends.

Malekith can't, because he cannot physically declare his attacks onto the standard bearer to hit him/her.

Why does he have to kill the standard bearer? And what spell are you talking about, here?
I will agree that, unless some extreme shenanigans are taking place, Malekith can't touch a Magic (non-battle) Standard, and possibly even if said extreme shenanigans are taking place. But I'm not sure where the above line of thought is going.

You also CAN destroy a magic banner with Arcane Unforging.

Unlike the rules for melee attacks, which are very specific.

P.48

"If a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack when it's turn to strike comes."

P.94

Profile and Wargear

"A standard bearer always has the same profile as the other rankand file models in his unit. [...more stuff, not relevant]"

Standard Bearers and Casualties

"We assume that if the standard bearer is slain, another warrior will step forward to raise the fellows standard aloft. The standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless only he and the champion remain alive in the unit. This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that targets a single model, such as dangerous terrain or an attack made with the Sniper special rule."

Arcane Unforging

"Target a single enemy model. It suffers a wound on a dice roll equal to or greater than it's unmodified armor save. (Models with no save cannot be wounded.) No armor saves are permitted against a wound caused by this spell. The owning player must then reveal to the caster all the magic items possessed by the target, if any. If the target has one ore more magic items, randomly select one of them. That item is immediately destroyed on a roll of 2+ and cannot be used for the rest of the game." [...more stuff, talking about how it cant target blown out bound items or one use items that have been used.]..


So..

Step 1, choose a target.

You CAN choose the standard bearer with a SPELL. We know this to be true because of this line from standard bearers.

"This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that targets a single model"

Step 2. Resolve spell.

The spell has 3 distinct phases.

A. Do you wound?

This isn't super important, as the wound isn't necessary. And when you resolve a spell, you resolve ALL of it's affects, so it really doesn't matter if we kill the standard bearer or whiff completely. (Which is likely. Most RnF have 5+ or less saves.)

B. Select an item.

Most of them only have one. Note that the spell doesn't say "If he is still alive...", so you finish resolving the spell. Show me your items and I roll randomly.

C. Destroy.

2+ or better.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
You also CAN destroy a magic banner with Arcane Unforging.

Unlike the rules for melee attacks, which are very specific.

P.48

"If a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack when it's turn to strike comes."

P.94

Profile and Wargear

"A standard bearer always has the same profile as the other rankand file models in his unit. [...more stuff, not relevant]"

Standard Bearers and Casualties

"We assume that if the standard bearer is slain, another warrior will step forward to raise the fellows standard aloft. The standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless only he and the champion remain alive in the unit. This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that targets a single model, such as dangerous terrain or an attack made with the Sniper special rule."

Arcane Unforging

"Target a single enemy model. It suffers a wound on a dice roll equal to or greater than it's unmodified armor save. (Models with no save cannot be wounded.) No armor saves are permitted against a wound caused by this spell. The owning player must then reveal to the caster all the magic items possessed by the target, if any. If the target has one ore more magic items, randomly select one of them. That item is immediately destroyed on a roll of 2+ and cannot be used for the rest of the game." [...more stuff, talking about how it cant target blown out bound items or one use items that have been used.]..


So..

Step 1, choose a target.

You CAN choose the standard bearer with a SPELL. We know this to be true because of this line from standard bearers.

"This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that targets a single model"

Step 2. Resolve spell.

The spell has 3 distinct phases.

A. Do you wound?

This isn't super important, as the wound isn't necessary. And when you resolve a spell, you resolve ALL of it's affects, so it really doesn't matter if we kill the standard bearer or whiff completely. (Which is likely. Most RnF have 5+ or less saves.)

B. Select an item.

Most of them only have one. Note that the spell doesn't say "If he is still alive...", so you finish resolving the spell. Show me your items and I roll randomly.

C. Destroy.

2+ or better.

The rules for Arcane unforging are as follows: "The target model suffers a wound equal to it's unmodified armour save. > The owning player must then reveal all magic items."

Note the underlined. This means that you only reveal the magic items if, and after, you suffer the wound. If you fail to wound, or it gets warded, you don't reveal them. And as standard bearers have 1 wound, they die, so you can't reveal the magic item as it's dead.