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Me and my friend played a game recently, his Blood Angels vs my Eldar, my entire army list is:
-16 guardians
-5 swooping hawks
-5 warp spiders
-An Eldar warlock with singing spear
-An Eldar warlock with witch blade
-7 rangers
-3 jetbikes
-7 fire dragons
-5 howling banshees
-5 dark reapers
-Eldar Farseer
-1 Fire Prism
-1 unassembled Fire Prism box

Now for the most part I slaughtered his troops in a pretty equal battle, where the concern comes from is his Captain and "dante" (spelt wrong, i know) Both have CRAZY power behind them for there cost. AS + 3 inv. saves on the one and more inv. saves on the other!
How the hell can I kill him? It ended with a loss for me with just those 2 last units of his left that murdered 4 squads of troops themselves. I know the Fire Prism would be good for killing tougher units, but the inv. saves block that, and he killed it in 1 units attacks before I could even move it.

Any tips appreciated!

Hmm. I thought Dante only had a 4+ invulnerable save. The sheer rate of fire that Eldar could put out on top of bladestorm should be enough to take him down. We're you using battle focus to keep them from closing the distance?

Also, I am not sure if it was a typo or not, but you mention saves in your original post. Is your opponent taking multiple saves per wound?

He may be speaking of the sanguinor who has a3+

Or the captain has a storm shield.

You're playing Eldar. He's playing Blood Angels. Your army is faster, puts out more firepower, and has ready access to lots of cheap support units (like your warlocks). Shoot and run away. Guardians are right there with Guardsmen and Chaos Cultists as having the distinction of being one of the few things Assault Marines can actually beat up in combat on a regular basis, so don't let them.

Dante (and everything else in the laughably overpriced BA Codex)h still crumbles to large volumes of bladestorm, monofilament, and Rending fire. Save the Fire Dragons for killing tanks and focus on pouring fire into his infantry and using Battle Focus and Thrust moves to run away.

 Havok210 wrote:
Hmm. I thought Dante only had a 4+ invulnerable save. The sheer rate of fire that Eldar could put out on top of bladestorm should be enough to take him down. We're you using battle focus to keep them from closing the distance?

Also, I am not sure if it was a typo or not, but you mention saves in your original post. Is your opponent taking multiple saves per wound?

Yeah, I roll to hit, then wound, then he takes his armour save and his like 3 inv. saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Or the captain has a storm shield.

You're playing Eldar. He's playing Blood Angels. Your army is faster, puts out more firepower, and has ready access to lots of cheap support units (like your warlocks). Shoot and run away. Guardians are right there with Guardsmen and Chaos Cultists as having the distinction of being one of the few things Assault Marines can actually beat up in combat on a regular basis, so don't let them.

Dante (and everything else in the laughably overpriced BA Codex)h still crumbles to large volumes of bladestorm, monofilament, and Rending fire. Save the Fire Dragons for killing tanks and focus on pouring fire into his infantry and using Battle Focus and Thrust moves to run away.

I would LOVE to run from him, and I did got the game lasting ~6 hours haha, but his damn death company with jumppacks + assault range is no match for my transport-less movement.

cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Hmm. I thought Dante only had a 4+ invulnerable save. The sheer rate of fire that Eldar could put out on top of bladestorm should be enough to take him down. We're you using battle focus to keep them from closing the distance?

Also, I am not sure if it was a typo or not, but you mention saves in your original post. Is your opponent taking multiple saves per wound?

Yeah, I roll to hit, then wound, then he takes his armour save and his like 3 inv.

Well, that is one problem. He can only take one save per would, not multiple ones. There is a misunderstanding of the rules going on there. Have a chat with your buddy about the rules for taking saves to clear that up. If Dante or whatever character is taking multiple saves per wound, that explains how they are mowing down your army.

as far as the feedback from other posters, it's right on.

Use one of the fire prisms as a wave serpent. Your problems will be gone.

 Havok210 wrote:

cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Hmm. I thought Dante only had a 4+ invulnerable save. The sheer rate of fire that Eldar could put out on top of bladestorm should be enough to take him down. We're you using battle focus to keep them from closing the distance?

Also, I am not sure if it was a typo or not, but you mention saves in your original post. Is your opponent taking multiple saves per wound?

Yeah, I roll to hit, then wound, then he takes his armour save and his like 3 inv.

Well, that is one problem. He can only take one save per would, not multiple ones. There is a misunderstanding of the rules going on there. Have a chat with your buddy about the rules for taking saves to clear that up. If Dante or whatever character is taking multiple saves per wound, that explains how they are mowing down your army.

as far as the feedback from other posters, it's right on.

He may be exaggerating Feel No Pain saves. Make sure both of you understand armor saves, invulnerable saves, and feel no pain saves. They are all different.

 Goldphish wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:

cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Hmm. I thought Dante only had a 4+ invulnerable save. The sheer rate of fire that Eldar could put out on top of bladestorm should be enough to take him down. We're you using battle focus to keep them from closing the distance?

Also, I am not sure if it was a typo or not, but you mention saves in your original post. Is your opponent taking multiple saves per wound?

Yeah, I roll to hit, then wound, then he takes his armour save and his like 3 inv.

Well, that is one problem. He can only take one save per would, not multiple ones. There is a misunderstanding of the rules going on there. Have a chat with your buddy about the rules for taking saves to clear that up. If Dante or whatever character is taking multiple saves per wound, that explains how they are mowing down your army.

as far as the feedback from other posters, it's right on.

He may be exaggerating Feel No Pain saves. Make sure both of you understand armor saves, invulnerable saves, and feel no pain saves. They are all different.

My friend loves rules in his favor and I didnt bother really checking it until now, so yea his saves here way off, he was using on one of his guys: terminator armour save, iron halo save, storm sheild save and inv. save just on his Capitan.

He would get termi save, then a fnp save OR an invuln save then a fnp save.
Also against BA take:
Avengers (in serpents)
Warp spiders
Firedragons (in serpents)
Fire prisms
War walkers (with scatters)
Jetbikes.

Job done.

Also if he ever gets mephiston, take karendras, striking scorp squad with exarch+ scorps claw and infiltrate. Karendras bitches mephy in assault due to his 2+ and scorps claw. If you kill the raider mephy will undoubtedly be in (no probs with fire warriors in a serp supported by prisms), he no longer has access to wings so your opponent will either have to:
A) face your striking scorp squad with mephy
B) Spend all of the game footslogging a long way around the scorp squad.
Or c) send in another squad to try and take them out - which he doesn't really want to do if you have 2 initiative striking powerclaws, one wielded by the scorpion master himself.

I run my BA against my friend's Eldar all the time and unless he tries to out melee me, he wins.

Seriously though, force him to assault you where you have the highest concentration of guns (in Eldar's case, that's everywhere). Truly the only threat you really have to worry about is any AV14 or deepstriking Fragnaughts.

Also, stop using Fire Prisms.

Poly Ranger wrote:
He would get termi save, then a fnp save OR an invuln save then a fnp save.
Also against BA take:
Avengers (in serpents)
Warp spiders
Firedragons (in serpents)
Fire prisms
War walkers (with scatters)
Jetbikes.

Job done.

Also if he ever gets mephiston, take karendras, striking scorp squad with exarch+ scorps claw and infiltrate. Karendras bitches mephy in assault due to his 2+ and scorps claw. If you kill the raider mephy will undoubtedly be in (no probs with fire warriors in a serp supported by prisms), he no longer has access to wings so your opponent will either have to:
A) face your striking scorp squad with mephy
B) Spend all of the game footslogging a long way around the scorp squad.
Or c) send in another squad to try and take them out - which he doesn't really want to do if you have 2 initiative striking powerclaws, one wielded by the scorpion master himself.

So you're saying he gets two saves and a FnP save too, when the rulebook states only 1 save can be made per wound, how does that work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I run my BA against my friend's Eldar all the time and unless he tries to out melee me, he wins.

Seriously though, force him to assault you where you have the highest concentration of guns (in Eldar's case, that's everywhere). Truly the only threat you really have to worry about is any AV14 or deepstriking Fragnaughts.

Also, stop using Fire Prisms.

But doesnt the amount of guns when he assaults not matter at all since I cant shoot at units locked in melee and his crazy stupid amounts of run with the jumpers?
And with the fire prisms... why? high strength, high AP, versatile shots...

cosmicsoybean wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
He would get termi save, then a fnp save OR an invuln save then a fnp save.
Also against BA take:
Avengers (in serpents)
Warp spiders
Firedragons (in serpents)
Fire prisms
War walkers (with scatters)
Jetbikes.

Job done.

Also if he ever gets mephiston, take karendras, striking scorp squad with exarch+ scorps claw and infiltrate. Karendras bitches mephy in assault due to his 2+ and scorps claw. If you kill the raider mephy will undoubtedly be in (no probs with fire warriors in a serp supported by prisms), he no longer has access to wings so your opponent will either have to:
A) face your striking scorp squad with mephy
B) Spend all of the game footslogging a long way around the scorp squad.
Or c) send in another squad to try and take them out - which he doesn't really want to do if you have 2 initiative striking powerclaws, one wielded by the scorpion master himself.

So you're saying he gets two saves and a FnP save too, when the rulebook states only 1 save can be made per wound, how does that work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I run my BA against my friend's Eldar all the time and unless he tries to out melee me, he wins.

Seriously though, force him to assault you where you have the highest concentration of guns (in Eldar's case, that's everywhere). Truly the only threat you really have to worry about is any AV14 or deepstriking Fragnaughts.

Also, stop using Fire Prisms.

But doesnt the amount of guns when he assaults not matter at all since I cant shoot at units locked in melee and his crazy stupid amounts of run with the jumpers?
And with the fire prisms... why? high strength, high AP, versatile shots...

As far as saves, he can either take his regular or inv save for the wound (provided that he is allowed to choose due to the weapon strength he is shot at with). If he fails that, the rules for FNP kick in and he can roll for that.

As far as Prism vs Wave Serpent, there are so many threads that talk about the value of the Serpent. Just search that out and you will find a weather of discussion and reasons why they are an auto take.

Ah, alright. So you can only have one of any save, regardless of it being cover, armour, inv. or a shield, and FnP is just classified as a "power" therefore you get one save + FnP per wound and that is it?

You got it.

As long as you remember that Feel No Pain isn't a save, it's a lot simpler.

Also don't listen to people telling you it should be EZmode because you're playing Eldar.

That's a load of bull coming from 6th ed whiners who like to take Competitive game conclusions to every non-competitive game.

Your list is so random it doesn't give you any advantage over any army out there, even if they bring a random list as well.

Do try to stay out of reach as much as you can, Eldar have no good Assault troops and you want to avoid contact.

morgoth wrote:
Also don't listen to people telling you it should be EZmode because you're playing Eldar.

That's a load of bull coming from 6th ed whiners who like to take Competitive game conclusions to every non-competitive game.

Your list is so random it doesn't give you any advantage over any army out there, even if they bring a random list as well.

Do try to stay out of reach as much as you can, Eldar have no good Assault troops and you want to avoid contact.

Anything I should add/build into to make my army competitive then? My style is heavy bombardment and pressure from fire then using my battle focus to get even further away and to continue doing that.

I'd recommend some transports. Wave serpents are obviously excellent, but even a falcon would help to get those fire dragons into better position to take out some major threats. Also, the str 8 will double out their t4 marines and prevent any FNP saves.

Additionally, the falcon could be equipped with a bright lance or maybe a starcannon, to give you some additional AP2 shooting.

cosmicsoybean wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
He would get termi save, then a fnp save OR an invuln save then a fnp save.
Also against BA take:
Avengers (in serpents)
Warp spiders
Firedragons (in serpents)
Fire prisms
War walkers (with scatters)
Jetbikes.

Job done.

Also if he ever gets mephiston, take karendras, striking scorp squad with exarch+ scorps claw and infiltrate. Karendras bitches mephy in assault due to his 2+ and scorps claw. If you kill the raider mephy will undoubtedly be in (no probs with fire warriors in a serp supported by prisms), he no longer has access to wings so your opponent will either have to:
A) face your striking scorp squad with mephy
B) Spend all of the game footslogging a long way around the scorp squad.
Or c) send in another squad to try and take them out - which he doesn't really want to do if you have 2 initiative striking powerclaws, one wielded by the scorpion master himself.

So you're saying he gets two saves and a FnP save too, when the rulebook states only 1 save can be made per wound, how does that work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I run my BA against my friend's Eldar all the time and unless he tries to out melee me, he wins.

Seriously though, force him to assault you where you have the highest concentration of guns (in Eldar's case, that's everywhere). Truly the only threat you really have to worry about is any AV14 or deepstriking Fragnaughts.

Also, stop using Fire Prisms.

But doesnt the amount of guns when he assaults not matter at all since I cant shoot at units locked in melee and his crazy stupid amounts of run with the jumpers?
And with the fire prisms... why? high strength, high AP, versatile shots...

I don't play Eldar, I face Eldar on a sem-regular basis and from what I've seen of a Fire Prism is that generally you treat it like a fragile tank destroyer, which is bad. If you're going to shell out the points for an Eldar tank I'd for a Serpent, transport, can get some decent weapons (the serpent shield is NUTS) and it's objective secured when taken as a dedicated transport; the Prism has none of these things.

As for shooting his units before they get into combat, you just have to build a series of firing lanes. Any shooty army player will tell you this; when facing assault heavy armies, you have to force them into areas that negate or lessen his movement capabilities. Force him to come at you through terrain, that's dangerous terrain checks for jumpers and slowed movement for foot based troops. If he takes Razorbacks or Rhinos, Serpents carry strong enough guns with enough shots to glance them before they get a chance to get in range so honestly the only thing you really have to worry about is AV14 and even then, Fire Dragons are an answer to that.

Also, remember that anything that causes instant death (i.e.doubled out toughness), negates FNP.

cosmicsoybean wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Also don't listen to people telling you it should be EZmode because you're playing Eldar.

That's a load of bull coming from 6th ed whiners who like to take Competitive game conclusions to every non-competitive game.

Your list is so random it doesn't give you any advantage over any army out there, even if they bring a random list as well.

Do try to stay out of reach as much as you can, Eldar have no good Assault troops and you want to avoid contact.

Anything I should add/build into to make my army competitive then? My style is heavy bombardment and pressure from fire then using my battle focus to get even further away and to continue doing that.

If you want a bombardment themed eldar army I'd focus on units like heavy weapons batteries (omg how can I forget heir name as an eldar player myself) and dark reapers with a quad-gun aegis defenses line. Add in some swooping hawks and you'll have loads of small and large blasts going off, plus solid harassment and anti tank. Bubble wrap it all with guardians supported by an avatar (to ensure nobody runs) and a psycher for casting and you're bombardment army will be golden.

cosmicsoybean wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Also don't listen to people telling you it should be EZmode because you're playing Eldar.

That's a load of bull coming from 6th ed whiners who like to take Competitive game conclusions to every non-competitive game.

Your list is so random it doesn't give you any advantage over any army out there, even if they bring a random list as well.

Do try to stay out of reach as much as you can, Eldar have no good Assault troops and you want to avoid contact.

Anything I should add/build into to make my army competitive then? My style is heavy bombardment and pressure from fire then using my battle focus to get even further away and to continue doing that.

Well... the thing is, a competitive army list is often created by finding top efficiency units and spamming them.
Right now, you could do that with a 6th edition mindset and come up with acceptably competitive lists.
But that would not be a top list because nobody has 7th edition really figured out and the meta is still shifting rapidly.

Let's just say that you cannot make your army competitive.
A competitive list is built from the ground up, and it may accidentally use models that you already own.
You could take my last 1850 competitive list and see what you can take from it and merge with yours, but that list is very much 6th ed optimized.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaul's wrath Vibro-cannons are indeed cheap and powerful tools. They usually get destroyed T1 though because people don't like them too much.

I like his idea! ^

D cannons could be fun too

 Havok210 wrote:

cosmicsoybean wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
He would get termi save, then a fnp save OR an invuln save then a fnp save.
Also against BA take:
Avengers (in serpents)
Warp spiders
Firedragons (in serpents)
Fire prisms
War walkers (with scatters)
Jetbikes.

Job done.

Also if he ever gets mephiston, take karendras, striking scorp squad with exarch+ scorps claw and infiltrate. Karendras bitches mephy in assault due to his 2+ and scorps claw. If you kill the raider mephy will undoubtedly be in (no probs with fire warriors in a serp supported by prisms), he no longer has access to wings so your opponent will either have to:
A) face your striking scorp squad with mephy
B) Spend all of the game footslogging a long way around the scorp squad.
Or c) send in another squad to try and take them out - which he doesn't really want to do if you have 2 initiative striking powerclaws, one wielded by the scorpion master himself.

So you're saying he gets two saves and a FnP save too, when the rulebook states only 1 save can be made per wound, how does that work?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:
I run my BA against my friend's Eldar all the time and unless he tries to out melee me, he wins.

Seriously though, force him to assault you where you have the highest concentration of guns (in Eldar's case, that's everywhere). Truly the only threat you really have to worry about is any AV14 or deepstriking Fragnaughts.

Also, stop using Fire Prisms.

But doesnt the amount of guns when he assaults not matter at all since I cant shoot at units locked in melee and his crazy stupid amounts of run with the jumpers?
And with the fire prisms... why? high strength, high AP, versatile shots...

As far as saves, he can either take his regular or inv save for the wound (provided that he is allowed to choose due to the weapon strength he is shot at with). If he fails that, the rules for FNP kick in and he can roll for that.

As far as Prism vs Wave Serpent, there are so many threads that talk about the value of the Serpent. Just search that out and you will find a weather of discussion and reasons why they are an auto take.

No I didn't. Read what I put. I said an armour save then a fnp save OOORRR an invuln thn a fnp save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry havoc - meant to quote cosmic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cosmicsoybean wrote:
Ah, alright. So you can only have one of any save, regardless of it being cover, armour, inv. or a shield, and FnP is just classified as a "power" therefore you get one save + FnP per wound and that is it?

Ah - just seen this. Yes that is exactly it!