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I think there are three situations where Jink can be considered:

1. Turn 1:

If you expect to be going second, you will minimize LoS to your Skimmers, and probably hide one behind the other, or behind terrain, or both.
My assumption is that in the worst of cases, there will be at most two Skimmers without terrain cover when deploying second.

v6 Jink: out of luck. doesn't work this time.
v7 Jink: you may Jink.
If only two Skimmers are in LoS, you can take two jinks, lose 66% (for TL weapons) or more of your DPS, and tank all incoming fire on 4+ (3+ if you have holofields).
Depending on the importance of the skimmers' alpha strike, this may be just as bad as having one of the two explode.

2. Behind Cover:

When behind cover, there is no difference between v6 or v7... or is there ?
Terrain (or unit) cover can be maneuvered around, and as long as your enemy finds a tiny window where all or 75% of your skimmer is visible, you're out of luck.
In that case, we have a clear difference:
v6 Jink: 5+ (4+ with holo) for free.
v7 Jink: You need to assess how much of a threat the one or two maneuvering units are.
If you feel they might down your Skimmer, you have to Jink and lose 66% (for TL weapons) or more of your DPS.
However, once you have Jinked, the opponent will automatically decide to pick another target, meaning you may want to delay your Jink after the first enemy, which would lose you the DPS and may even result in the Skimmer taking enough damage to explode.

3. Into the Wild:

Here's the huge difference between v6 and v7, a matter of mobility and firepower.
v6 Jink: 5+ (4+ with holo) for free.
v7 Jink: You are now in sight of most of the enemy army (at least after their movement phase).
If you feel they might down your Skimmer, you have to Jink and lose 66% (for TL weapons) or more of your DPS.
However, once you have Jinked, the opponent will automatically decide to pick another target, meaning you may want to delay your Jink after the first target, which would lose you the DPS and may even result in the Skimmer taking enough damage to explode.


The new Jink is a huge nerf, much more so for any army using more than a couple Skimmers, because any Jinking Skimmer will lose most of its DPS and be ignored by the enemy, leaving you with mostly the choice of not Jinking, which is almost the same as not having Jink to begin with.

I know you're thinking more about Eldar than Necrons here, but remember that Necrons also get skimmers. And twin-linked tesla loses very little effectiveness when snap-fired.

Not everyone is worse off with the changes.

Jink is not cover (at least I saw no indication it was 'As cover' but I'm still reading the rules) so the cover save is an either/or situation. since most of the time you'll have a 5+, jink is better.

Ignore cover weapons sadly don't cut it agasint jink in that case.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Jink is not cover (at least I saw no indication it was 'As cover' but I'm still reading the rules) so the cover save is an either/or situation. since most of the time you'll have a 5+, jink is better.

Ignore cover weapons sadly don't cut it agasint jink in that case.

Jink literally gives a 4+ cover save. It says so in the rules

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Jink is not cover (at least I saw no indication it was 'As cover' but I'm still reading the rules) so the cover save is an either/or situation. since most of the time you'll have a 5+, jink is better.

Ignore cover weapons sadly don't cut it agasint jink in that case.

"Jink" grants a cover save. "Ignores Cover" also negates any bonuses from Jink.

Will you please stop saying you lose 66% firepower. Its just bad math and not representative of the entire situation.

Twinlinked BS5 vs Twinlinked BS1. 89% vs 31%, that is only 58% per shot and a 65% relative reduction in firepower. Considering Eldar Wave Serpents are the focus of your post, you end up with a 78% chance of Twinlinking your Serpent Shield. It comes out to a 28% to hit when you factor all of that in for a 61% lower chance of hitting and 69% average Reduction in firepower for a Serpent Shield or Underslung Shuriken Cannon.

BS4 vs BS1 is 67% vs 17%. That is only 50% loss per shot or 75% reduction in firepower.

Twinlinked BS4 Tesla vs Twinlinked BS1 Tesla. Twinlinked BS4 Tesla averages 1.25 hits whereas a Twinlinked BS1 Tesla averages .92 hits or only a 26% reduction in firepower. Example is the Necron Tesla Destructor

Twinlinked BS2 vs Twinlinked BS1 56% vs 31%, that is a 25% lower chance to hit or a 45% Reduction in firepower. Example would be Ork Warbikers.

We can conclude that in all cases jinking does reduce firepower, anywhere from 26% to 75% for common units. As your main intent of this thread is lament over Wave Serpents being nerfed by Jink, ~66% is fair, but certainly not representative of all Skimmers. #FirstTierProblems


You also need to accurately factor in the increased resiliency form Jinking in this Edition compared to that in 6th.

5+ 6th Edition Jink vs 4+ 7th Edition Jink. That is a 50% increase in resiliency due to Jink.

4+ 6th Edition Holofield Jink vs 3+ 7th Edition Holofield Jink. Its a 33% increase in in resiliency due to Jink.

Interestingly enough, Holofields are worse than they were in 6th Edition, where as while Jinking Wave Serpents are much more durable in 7th than in 6th independent of the vehicle Damage changes.


Now about scenarios, assuming Wave Serpents are now jinking all the time is erroneous. They only jink when they have to and when you feel they are threatened. Your thread makes assumptions and is biased towards specifically Wave Serpents used as Gunships and is not objective in reference to Jink as a whole.

I think you need to change your title and opening post to reflect how you feel 7th Edition is a nerf for Wave Serpents used as Gunships. Wave Serepents used as transports have actually received quite a large buff as Jinking is more beneficial to durability, they have a better vehicle Damage Table, and they often have Objective Secured.


I would strongly suggest you either remove your bias and look at Jink as a whole, or make your examination more pointed ie Jink and Wave Serpents use as Gunboats. Yes, Wave Serpents or other Skimmers used as Gunships have gotten worse at a Gunship Role with the new Jink rule, when they choose to Jink, but receive greater durability, which has a prime impact on Skimmers used as Transports ie Devilfish or Wave Serpent. Otherwise, this was a pretty useless endeavor.

Objectives:
v6: your skimmers couldn't capture or even deny objectives.
v7: you can turbo-boost across the board, capture an active objective, roll your 3+ jink, then next turn turbo-boost to whatever objective you have in your hand for that turn.

The new rules are a nerf for the killing power of wave serpents but a buff for capturing objectives. Jink itself is simply different... nerf in some ways (snap shots when used) but a buff in others (better save and available turn 1).

I believe you always try to table your opponents as you've stated in another thread. Therefore from your perspective the new Jink rules are a nerf. I personally enjoy a change that makes people play to the objectives instead of simply "KILL EVERYTHING RAWR".

I think people are missing the point with jink, Eldar have become more powerful than ever - (i.e. a) no first turn pain i.e. b) their jetbikes are simply better especially shining spears (which I have yet to try in 7th, but I bought 9 so we shall try! i.e. c) Serpents can capture objectives).

Wave Serpents behind 25% cover are unchanged - and this is the kicker - wave serpents SHOULD be in mobs.. and only the front one needs to be in cover.. you push him out, then the others hang tail (as it were) they are all in cover and whatever you pointed them at is probably mostly dead. If you have to jink simply shoot fliers next turn - no drama.

of course if you ACTUALLY want to use the wave serpent as a TRANSPORT (and not the best tank in the game) that's fine too.. 3+ is lovely... but then you'd probably keep your shield for defence until they're unloaded...

Its just Morgoth is focused solely on the Wave Serpent as a Gunboat. He is focused on one particular role for one particular unit. Despite that unit as a whole getting better, and the rule he hates, being balanced and fair across a multitude of units.

My guess is that he is just upset that his Serpent Spam Gunboat list got a bit of a nerf, instead of his Transports being the best Tank in the game. Now they are still the bets Transport in the game, and arguably one of the most cost effective Tanks in the game...

It would be nice if this thread means you can stop derailing almost every other thread I click on with this same crap. I don't even care about you being drastically wrong anymore - tired of seeing otherwise interesting threads trolled out for 4 pages because you just keep posting about Wave Serpents and denying the existence of logic in any opposing response.

That being said, many armies did not get that much worse from the jink (yours included, 3+ Wave Serpents lel). A Venom with Wyches likes the extra survivability, especially since it lets them Deepstrike and jink.

It just does not get into my head how Eldar player can seriously complain about Wave Serpents.

What's next? Necron players complaining about Nightscythes?

Jink received a SKIMMER nerf, not a flyer nerf. I love the new jink rules! For my FMCs, it is simply a better save, same penalty as before.

For skimmers, yes it is usually worse. Necrons might as well always jink, as their mathematical efficiency is pretty similar.

 Zagman wrote:

I would strongly suggest you either remove your bias and look at Jink as a whole, or make your examination more pointed ie Jink and Wave Serpents use as Gunboats. Yes, Wave Serpents or other Skimmers used as Gunships have gotten worse at a Gunship Role with the new Jink rule, when they choose to Jink, but receive greater durability, which has a prime impact on Skimmers used as Transports ie Devilfish or Wave Serpent. Otherwise, this was a pretty useless endeavor.

Ok, let's use more general numbers: every Skimmer loses about 25-70% DPS when Jinking.

That's a HUGE loss.

Even 25% less DPS for 33% Resilience is a bad deal when faced with the decision of Jinking, which as I said implies that a smart enemy will change target as soon as Jink is enabled, thereby limiting its positive effect while not changing anything to drawbacks.

That's because you're not losing just 25-70% DPS for 33% Resilience, as soon as you lose it on one Skimmer, the target moves to another Skimmer, for which you also lose 25% DPS, and so forth.

Not only may it not be worth it at all for any Skimmer losing >50% DPS, it's just horrible for everyone fielding more than one Skimmer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's not drift to Eldar or Wave Serpent people, this topic is Jink in 7th Edition, why it's a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:
I know you're thinking more about Eldar than Necrons here, but remember that Necrons also get skimmers. And twin-linked tesla loses very little effectiveness when snap-fired.

Not everyone is worse off with the changes.

Everyone with shooting is worse off with the changes, including Necrons, because Jinking means your opponent switches to a non-jinked target that does not have the protection and can still lose 25-70% of its DPS.

morgoth wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

I would strongly suggest you either remove your bias and look at Jink as a whole, or make your examination more pointed ie Jink and Wave Serpents use as Gunboats. Yes, Wave Serpents or other Skimmers used as Gunships have gotten worse at a Gunship Role with the new Jink rule, when they choose to Jink, but receive greater durability, which has a prime impact on Skimmers used as Transports ie Devilfish or Wave Serpent. Otherwise, this was a pretty useless endeavor.

Ok, let's use more general numbers: every Skimmer loses about 25-70% DPS when Jinking.

That's a HUGE loss.

Even 25% less DPS for 33% Resilience is a bad deal when faced with the decision of Jinking, which as I said implies that a smart enemy will change target as soon as Jink is enabled, thereby limiting its positive effect while not changing anything to drawbacks.

That's because you're not losing just 25-70% DPS for 33% Resilience, as soon as you lose it on one Skimmer, the target moves to another Skimmer, for which you also lose 25% DPS, and so forth.

Not only may it not be worth it at all for any Skimmer losing >50% DPS, it's just horrible for everyone fielding more than one Skimmer.

I think it's fascinating, that you measure damage in a turn-based strategy game in "seconds"

Damage Per Shootingphase... No problem, its a silent P on phase anyway, silent AND invisible

I like the new Jink rules. It stimulates descision making. there are many times where an opponent wouldn't switch targets just because you jink e.g. You are sat on an objective your opponent needs, your about to disembark 10 necron warriors within 12" of your opponents super heavy, basically any time you've forced your opponents targets for him (you know like what happens when you use tactics).

I think the changes to serpents and jink in general are good but it would be nice if the crew also had to snap shoot.

7th Edition Jink, forcing Eldar to win a different way since 2014.

-Matt

7th made Eldar so much stronger even if jink arguably didn't improve (which it did)

morgoth wrote:
Everyone with shooting is worse off with the changes, including Necrons, because Jinking means your opponent switches to a non-jinked target that does not have the protection and can still lose 25-70% of its DPS.

Are you telling us that player A can select a target, player B can then Jink and player A will now simply pick another target to shoot at with his unit?

Because you'd be soooooo wrong.

Edit: As a Necron-player I am really happy with the changes to Skimmers.

I never really understood the point of threads like this.

"I think so-and-so ability/unit/wargear was nerfed!"

Ok. And?

Are you trying to convince the world to stop jinking? Because when the alternative is death... losing some damage output to stay in the realm of the living seems perfectly fine to me.

Kangodo wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Everyone with shooting is worse off with the changes, including Necrons, because Jinking means your opponent switches to a non-jinked target that does not have the protection and can still lose 25-70% of its DPS.

Are you telling us that player A can select a target, player B can then Jink and player A will now simply pick another target to shoot at with his unit?

Because you'd be soooooo wrong.

Edit: As a Necron-player I am really happy with the changes to Skimmers.

Ok, why would a decently good opponent decide to choose against a more protected target when he can shoot a less protected one and cause it to lose DPS in the process.

I have reduced the scope of the discussion to Shooting Skimmers by the way, so there is no more consideration of open-topped (which may be FAQ'd) or assault (which clearly benefit from the new Jink).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

omerakk wrote:
I never really understood the point of threads like this.

"I think so-and-so ability/unit/wargear was nerfed!"

Ok. And?

Are you trying to convince the world to stop jinking? Because when the alternative is death... losing some damage output to stay in the realm of the living seems perfectly fine to me.

The point of this thread is to have a sane discussion about whether or not the new Jink is a nerf.

Right now, for many shooting Jinkers (not FMC apparently), the alternative is conserving a lot more damage output.

Losing some damage output for an important part of your army may amount to losing the game, especially if it happens every turn.

So you think it works like this?
"I will now fire at your Ghost Ark with my lascannon."
-"I am going to Jink."
"Ooh, than I'll fire at that other unit with my lascannon!"

You can't reselect a target..

here's the thing. a waveserpent "skimmer" behind a ruin is as survivable as it ever was. a rhino sat in the middle of an empty field is as survivable as it ever was (IE not). the problem is that people have gotten so used to their skimmers being able to shout "you can't hit me, I have no wheels!" that they can't accept that a very sensible rules-change to move skimmers away from this god-class of vehicle was actually a very good one.

the new rules mean that oh no, boo-frikken-hoo, you'll have to use cover like the rest of us plebs. the difference is that when a dreadnaught drops in behind you and pops off 2 meltagun shots, you can dance out of the way.
that makes you less effective at shooting. well you should have thought of that before you put the skimmer somewhere it can be outflanked. stop thinking "point and click" and start thinking tactical wargaming.

I have images in my head of a conversation with an incompetant commander:

"Put those skimmers in the open where they can get a good shot!"
"but then they'll be shot at without any cover..."
"nonsense! they'll perform acrobatic manoeuvres to dodge every shot!"
"but won't that make it hard to aim?"
"buh? o.O"

I think you guys misunderstod him.

Once they call a jink you dont re-target the shot to another skimmer, you target the NEXT shot on another skimmer.
If it jinked, you don't need to hurry killing it as much (unless its an annibarge, then you're screwed)

The situation is really simple:

Did your opponent fire enough shots to destroy your skimmer? Yes?
Then jink so your skimmer might stay alive.


Did your opponent fire enough shots to destroy your skimmer? No?
Then don't jink so you can shoot at full power.

Unless your skimmer is an annihilation barge, in which case, you always jink and reap the benefits.

New Jink made Fire Prisms garbage but, that's the only real nerf I see.

Serpents got even better, Holofields + Jink = 3+ cover. For something which is supposed to be exposed to fire (aka Transports) this is a BIG FRIGGIN DEAL.

JBikes got better; mind you they were already the best objective thieves in the game, now made more evasive. JBikes rarely kill anyway unless it's cleanup.

Shinning Spears? A few more alive for that charge.

morgoth wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Everyone with shooting is worse off with the changes, including Necrons, because Jinking means your opponent switches to a non-jinked target that does not have the protection and can still lose 25-70% of its DPS.

Are you telling us that player A can select a target, player B can then Jink and player A will now simply pick another target to shoot at with his unit?

Because you'd be soooooo wrong.

Edit: As a Necron-player I am really happy with the changes to Skimmers.

Ok, why would a decently good opponent decide to choose against a more protected target when he can shoot a less protected one and cause it to lose DPS in the process.

I have reduced the scope of the discussion to Shooting Skimmers by the way, so there is no more consideration of open-topped (which may be FAQ'd) or assault (which clearly benefit from the new Jink).

So what is your point here? That no-one should shoot anything with jink? I don't get this at all, or how it makes jink bad.

 RancidHate wrote:

JBikes got better; mind you they were already the best objective thieves in the game, now made more evasive. JBikes rarely kill anyway unless it's cleanup.

That's why I like malstorm.
No more thivery and eldar trickery, you want points? FIGHT for them.

Kangodo wrote:
So you think it works like this?
"I will now fire at your Ghost Ark with my lascannon."
-"I am going to Jink."
"Ooh, than I'll fire at that other unit with my lascannon!"

You can't reselect a target..

No. It works like this:

-I'm going to fire at your Ghost Ark with a minimal chance to deal damage to it, with my Las cannon.
- Then I jink
- Then I'm going to fire my other las Cannon at your other Ghost Ark
- Then I guess I won't jink
- Bad luck bro, I just rolled an explode. Now I fire with my other other las cannon at your third Ghost Ark
- Then I jink
- Then I'm going to fire my other other other las Cannon at something else.

Result: lots of jinked Skimmers with 25% to 75% damage output loss, slightly less damage taken than in v6.

Is it worth it: no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RancidHate wrote:
New Jink made Fire Prisms garbage but, that's the only real nerf I see.

Serpents got even better, Holofields + Jink = 3+ cover. For something which is supposed to be exposed to fire (aka Transports) this is a BIG FRIGGIN DEAL.

JBikes got better; mind you they were already the best objective thieves in the game, now made more evasive. JBikes rarely kill anyway unless it's cleanup.

Shinning Spears? A few more alive for that charge.

This is not about Wave Serpents, it's about Shooting Skimmers and 7th ed Jink.

Holofields is a straight nerf against any Skimmer that shoots, and so far I haven't heard any valid argument against that.

landspeeders with flamers take a 100% damage nerf as well, im not complaining though.

If i have to jink i'll just flat out em somewhere they can be of use the next turn.

Eihnlazer wrote:
landspeeders with flamers take a 100% damage nerf as well, im not complaining though.

If i have to jink i'll just flat out em somewhere they can be of use the next turn.

I don't think anyone's complaining, this thread is mostly about better understanding the implications of the Jink change, which seems to be a straight nerf to shooting skimmers

Thanks for the reminder that the new Jink is a 100% damage nerf on units using template weapons, I had forgotten about that.