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What is the hardest army for new players to get started with?

I know there's a tendency for new players to choose Space Marines, in part because of the marketing and the fact the rules are relatively simple for them. Thinking about the opposite, what armies are hard to build around for new players, either because of the cost, the complexity of the rules, or other factors?

This question was going around my FLGS this weekend. The strongest case was for Chaos Daemons, a player there started in 40k by buying an all Khorne army. It cost him an arm and a leg, and never really won much of anything.

Thoughts?

Dark Eldar I'd say skill wise. There are, and have been ones that are lower effectiveness such as sisters, but they're straight forward to play. Daemons are strong, or at least they have strong builds. Sadly the internal balance is off in a lot of codices so even playing a "strong" dex you could find your Vespid Tau list underperforming ; p Khorne is a melee focused army in a ranged focused game which would be the majority of why your mate is struggling. Cost-wise, horde armies are the most expensive such as 'nids, guard and Orks.

Plaguebearers used to be $25 for 5...

Dark eldar, they are at times a glass dagger, deadly but fragile and easy to take casualties,

Rules wise, Dark Eldar. Money wise, of course, there's only one answer, although they are relatively easy to play and win with if you can afford the army.

Dark Eldar are exceptionally unforgiving when you start them.

Necrons have an extremely tricky 'intended' play style, and while they get much easier once you have some experience under your belt, starting them can be frustrating.

Still though, DE can be hard, and probably get my vote. I've been playing 40k for over a decade at this point, and had a pretty good grasp of my primary army when I picked up Dark Eldar. It had been months since I'd lost a game. Still, my first two games with DE ended up with me being tabled, without my opponents ever breaking a sweat. (The first one saw me tabled by turn two!)

Sisters of Battle. Extremely expensive, rules are hard to come by and their...abilities are rather limited.

Only thing that is wrong with that, Sigvatr is that their rules are just a digital download on Black Library. Not THAT hard to get anymore. At least it is not the "two White Dwarfs" codex.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sisters of Battle. Extremely expensive, rules are hard to come by and their...abilities are rather limited.

Nah, the rules are easy to come by, you can buy them from the website if you have an iPad, or the BL website if you don't.. and their abilities are just fine, thanks, and power-wise actually on the same level as Tau.

Ahh, thanks, did not know about the BL thingy, only knew about the ISwag version!

@Furyou Miko: By "limited" I meant that actual viable lists are extremely limited. Other armies, such as Necrons, got a few quite strong possible list themes, but SoB are limited in that regard.

Well, I think its Dark Eldar. Its absolutely unforgiving.

Pfft all the people saying Dark Eldar because that's the trend

In all actuality Dark Eldar beginners get a large advantage in that so long as they don't choose an absolutely mind boggling selection of models without even properly reading the Codex, its difficult to not solve some typical beginner issues immediately. With Dark Lances the only sort of vehicles you'll have trouble with are Wave Serpents, and maybe flyers, though after the first time they'll just know to get a Razorwing/Voidraven. The "jesus christ I need to figure out how to kill MC's" moment probably won't come, and if it does, its going to be way, way easier to deal with as every infantry unit has poisoned guns and S8 AP2 can put the hurt on any MC.

Their principle is simple. Take firepower, move quickly into position, apply firepower, win. Nothing like Marines where the moving is more or just as complicated and risky, and the firepower is nothing to be impressed by more than half the time.

They'll probably have a hard time if they don't often go first, but otherwise I'd say there are harder armies to start up with for sure. The basic troops are good, unless they go with Wyches without transports. The transports are great, the two common HS choices, the Ravager and the Razorwing are great, and there's a lot of things that will make even an experienced player cringe painfully from.

I mean, lets just look at Dark Angels. Their AA is garbage. Their Terminators are an overcosted trap, unless a new player takes a leap of faith and buys like 6-9 Black Knights (an absurd amount of money) just about everything they'll field will be mediocre. DA Tactical Squads are terrible, and since they probably won't have a Rhino because beginners never understand the need for them (since they have no guns) they'll be even worse. Against MC's the road will probably be pretty bumpy unless the Ravenwing is expanded.

With Chaos, off the bat you have Codex:Space Marines v0.5 where there is a lot of not-obvious mediocre and garbage traps to fall into (starting with basic CSM) and aside from picking up a Helldrake finding the effective units will be a painful effort. Against MC's and flyers in particular a newbie will struggle with CSM.

Well firstly, by-cost, I'd say nothing that's been in a starter set recently. Marines (especially DA) are cheap because they've been in everything, and it's still possible to get AoBR orks and even some of the old tyranid gribblies. CSM are sort of an exception to this given just how worthless their set of minis from DV are.

After that, anything that can run terminator armies or land raiders are out, because you just don't have to buy that many models. Abaddon, 2x chosen squads and 2x land raiders is easily 1000 points, and that's 11 infantry models and two vehicles. So that means guard, sisters and non-ork xenos.

Then we'll go with difficult to play. Necron are straight out of the running as you don't need to bother understanding what different weapons do (just keep clicking the tesla button until you can't anymore), and your guys pop right back up after you kill them. Guard are out because they're more complicated, but they're also just as straightforward. There's nothing particularly difficult about throwing down a parking lot and just rolling dice to see if you hit, while even more complicated lists are still sort of just spamming a few different types of units and throwing them at your opponent all at once. Tau are also knocked out because you don't need to read the rules for movement or assault, or all of those special rules your wargear just ignores.

That leaves, what, Eldar, DE, sisters, demons and sort of tyranid.

Of that, I'm going to knock out DE and sisters. DE may be flimsy, but everything is still pretty cheap, pointswise, and sisters may be expensive, but they're also ridiculously easy to paint and model. More importantly, though, both of them sort of play like an imperial army. Here's your squad of 10. They can have 1 special and 1 heavy. Your choice of special is a meltagun, or a better version of your small arm, while your yadda yadda. There are only straightforward options, and any squad can be more or less built for any purpose.

Which is really, really not true of either Eldar or demons.

That just leaves those two and tyranid. All three of them are really difficult to paint and still get to look even decent, while all three of them can, if you're one of those one in a million painters, look absolutely fantastic. All three are going to fall in that annoying range where they have too many units to be a cheap army, but not enough units (and not interchangeable enough) for the price per unit to be low. All three (especially demons) have a rubbish battleforce, and eldar is stuck with a ton of stuff still in finecast.

If I really had to whittle it down from those top three bad starter armies... well, what differentiates?

On the plus side for eldar, while their vehicles are really hard to paint in such a way where they look nice (say hello to brush strokes), their infantry are at least pretty straightforward, and the out-of-the-box paint schemes look the least cartoonish. They also have the most durable dedicated transport in the game at the moment, while they have the ability to push the mid-S spam button and their weapon choices are pretty easy (want more anti-tank? Say hello to fire dragons).

On the plus side for tyranid, they are the easiest of the three to speedpaint. You can get a lot of mileage out of spraying them tan and then washing them. This means that you can just sort of focus your attention on the big bugs, which I suppose is necessary because MCs are going to be harder to paint and assemble than vehicles. It's also probably going to be the easiest to shop around on eBay, especially for all the little gribblies.

On the plus side for demons, a lot of it is rather similar (all W1 and 5++), so you just need to keep track of the weapons they have... and the special rules... And you have to do psychic powers, just like the other two, but then you also have to keep track of what your demonic wind roll is, and resolve that mechanic every turn. And they have the problems of painting MCs without the ability to MC spam in quite the same way (or have nearly as many ways of setting them up to fit your army).

That's it, then. I'm going to say demons are the worst army for a new person to start, for several reasons:

1.) They are difficult to paint up to a decent tabletop quality. Just spray + wash will make them look like garbage, and it's more difficult to paint bright colors and not make them look candy-coated.

2.) They're still a relatively new army, and they're still a relatively (outside of tournaments recently) unpopular army, and they've never been in a starter box. That means you can't go to eBay and consistently get a big pile of them for cheap. Even if you could, it still wouldn't be ideal as a demon army isn't very modular (If I buy a SM army, all of those dudes with bolters can be used, but what if there's nurglings and I play mono-slaanesh?).

3.) They're tougher to model as well. Lots of tiny thin parts that easily snap, and don't give you a lot of surface area. Plus, I'm a skilled modeller, and even I think the chariots look a little futzy.

4.) They're tough to play. Yeah, bloodcrushers are going to be pretty straightforward, but there's very little true versatility in a demon army. You can't make an anti-infantry unit able to handle nearby vehicles by just chucking a meltagun at the squad. That means that every little piece has to work just right (sort of the usual complaint against Eldar), and it's going to be easier to exploit gaps. Furthermore, there's all that paperwork you've got to do.

5.) No, really, they're tough to play. Because even if it's all rather difficult before you hit the table, it's tricky in detail as well, because you've got to manage deepstriking without the benefits of drop pods, and getting the right thing in the right place at the right time. I've seen demon armies trip over their own feet before and just sort of die in a bungled mess. At least with DE you can charge everything forward turn 1 and have a decent chance at doing something.

And then let's not forget that because demons are pretty one-dimensional, they have a TON of hard counters. RoF is going to be a pretty serious challenge on an army relying only on 5's for saves, and they have no mech option. And the way most armies handle mech armies is with S5-7 RoF. Which will eat demons.

And, of course, demons are the only army in the game that has another army specifically designed to be a hard counter to them. What's a new player to do if he has a demon army and comes up against GK? It's not going to be pretty.

I guess for second place, I'll give it to tyranid, because they likewise lack a mech option, and are likewise pretty crummy at gunlines, which means they're harder to play. And that's still with models that are difficult to paint like anything other than bug-lizard-clowns. They also have more special rules and non-"standard" equipment.

And then eldar.

So there you go.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sisters of Battle. Extremely expensive, rules are hard to come by and their...abilities are rather limited.

Nah, the rules are easy to come by, you can buy them from the website if you have an iPad, or the BL website if you don't.. and their abilities are just fine, thanks, and power-wise actually on the same level as Tau.

Wait, wait. On the same power level as Tau? I know my sisters are stronger than most people realize....but Tau? That's a bit too much hyperbole.

 Ailaros wrote:
-snip-

I think that's a fair analysis, and I agree for the most part, especially about daemons and Eldar.

People see the screamerstar, and the Seer-star and the last-turn objective contesting with jetbikes, and they think that these armies are EZ-mode win-button armies. They really aren't, outside of the tournament level builds. Eldar and Daemons have good offensive power and speed, but they're fragile and require a thorough understanding of their mechanics and limits. Their units are entirely dependent on one another to survive, and will die from a stiff breeze when attacked by anything they aren't specifically designed to deal with.

EDIT- Though honestly, for these very same reasons I would toss Dark Eldar into that bunch. Dark Eldar may be relatively cheap, and they may pack a punch, but their fragility really should not be underestimated. I have consistently wrecked 800+ points of Dark Eldar turn 1 with my drop-pod Salamanders list. I've done similar damage with my mech-guard lists after surviving their alpha strike.

Dark Eldar are hard because these days they're an all-or-nothing army. There are no "close games" with Dark Eldar. They either wreck you with an alpha strike and win, or they die a slow death over the course of the game.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sisters of Battle. Extremely expensive, rules are hard to come by and their...abilities are rather limited.

Nah, the rules are easy to come by, you can buy them from the website if you have an iPad, or the BL website if you don't.. and their abilities are just fine, thanks, and power-wise actually on the same level as Tau.

Wait, wait. On the same power level as Tau? I know my sisters are stronger than most people realize....but Tau? That's a bit too much hyperbole.

I was being literal. Dominions are exactly the same as fusion suits with three markerlights on the target. Only they just turn up and kill stuff with no jiggering about with combined fire.

BlaxicanX wrote: Dark Eldar may be relatively cheap, and they may pack a punch, but their fragility really should not be underestimated.

But they're hardly unique there.

I mean, why not say imperial guard? It's crazy easy to wipe out a 50-point 10-man guard squad. Why should they be left off the table and DE added just because it's crazy easy to wipe out a 50-point raider? Likewise if you're playing a green tide, your ork army is going to be removing fistfuls of models at a time, but that doesn't make orks a difficult starter army.

Fragility is, in itself, not the biggest drawback if it's balanced out by things like low points cost and versatility. Both of which DE have. If their raiders couldn't take dark lances or warriors take blasters or wyches take haywire grenades there might be something to be said, but they can. And they have poisoned weapons with weight of fire.

DE may reward you for clever play more than other armies, but I think that the idea that DE is difficult to use is pretty seriously overrated. Especially given the drawbacks of certain other armies.

Having a single drawback isn't enough to cut it.

for the sheer amount of models you have to have, Imperial guard are a pretty daunting choice for a new player.

 Ailaros wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote: Dark Eldar may be relatively cheap, and they may pack a punch, but their fragility really should not be underestimated.

But they're hardly unique there.

I mean, why not say imperial guard? It's crazy easy to wipe out a 50-point 10-man guard squad. Why should they be left off the table and DE added just because it's crazy easy to wipe out a 50-point raider? Likewise if you're playing a green tide, your ork army is going to be removing fistfuls of models at a time, but that doesn't make orks a difficult starter army.

Fragility is, in itself, not the biggest drawback if it's balanced out by things like low points cost and versatility. Both of which DE have. If their raiders couldn't take dark lances or warriors take blasters or wyches take haywire grenades there might be something to be said, but they can. And they have poisoned weapons with weight of fire.

DE may reward you for clever play more than other armies, but I think that the idea that DE is difficult to use is pretty seriously overrated. Especially given the drawbacks of certain other armies.

Having a single drawback isn't enough to cut it.

The key difference between Guard and Dark Eldar is that while Guardsmen are individually fragile, IG is a horde army which has a type of enhanced durability all in its own simply by virtue of having so many models on the board. Dark Eldar infantry are similarly vulnerable, but DE are nominally an MSU army, not a horde army, so they can't compensate for their fragility by having dudes out the ass. They also don't have the plethora of morale-buffing options that Guard have. So a 10-man Tac squad can murder a 10-man guardsmen squad pretty easily, but it's not going to do a whole lot against a 30 or 40 or 50-man fearless/GbitF! blob.

Meanwhile, what the Guard lack in MSU toughness, they make up for by having some of the hardest hitting and most durable vehicles in the game. Dark Eldar's most durable vehicle is AV11, versus the AV14 Russ. Their bread and butter dedicated transports are threatened by bolters and are open-topped, whereas Chimeras require at least light AT weapons to take down at range.

Guard and Dark Eldar aren't really comparable. Their troops have similar T and Sv. That's pretty much where the similarities end.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote: Dark Eldar may be relatively cheap, and they may pack a punch, but their fragility really should not be underestimated.

But they're hardly unique there.

I mean, why not say imperial guard? It's crazy easy to wipe out a 50-point 10-man guard squad. Why should they be left off the table and DE added just because it's crazy easy to wipe out a 50-point raider? Likewise if you're playing a green tide, your ork army is going to be removing fistfuls of models at a time, but that doesn't make orks a difficult starter army.

Fragility is, in itself, not the biggest drawback if it's balanced out by things like low points cost and versatility. Both of which DE have. If their raiders couldn't take dark lances or warriors take blasters or wyches take haywire grenades there might be something to be said, but they can. And they have poisoned weapons with weight of fire.

DE may reward you for clever play more than other armies, but I think that the idea that DE is difficult to use is pretty seriously overrated. Especially given the drawbacks of certain other armies.

Having a single drawback isn't enough to cut it.

The key difference between Guard and Dark Eldar is that while Guardsmen are individually fragile, IG is a horde army which has a type of enhanced durability all in its own simply by virtue of having so many models on the board. Dark Eldar infantry are similarly vulnerable, but DE are nominally an MSU army, not a horde army, so they can't compensate for their fragility by having dudes out the ass. They also don't have the plethora of morale-buffing options that Guard have. So a 10-man Tac squad can murder a 10-man guardsmen squad pretty easily, but it's not going to do a whole lot against a 30 or 40 or 50-man fearless/GbitF! blob.

Meanwhile, what the Guard lack in MSU toughness, they make up for by having some of the hardest hitting and most durable vehicles in the game. Dark Eldar's most durable vehicle is AV11, versus the AV14 Russ. Their bread and butter dedicated transports are threatened by bolters and are open-topped, whereas Chimeras require at least light AT weapons to take down at range.

Guard and Dark Eldar aren't really comparable. Their troops have similar T and Sv. That's pretty much where the similarities end.

Your main argument falls apart when you forget that we're talking about beginners here. At most, they're going to have about 40 something Guardsmen, probably about 10 of which are going to be forming Command Squads. I started playing IG with roughly 40, 20 of which went to a platoon, 10 to a Veteran Squad and the rest forming a CCS and a PCS.

A beginner neither has the models nor the will to pull a 30/40/50 man fearless blob with a Priest they haven't even considered yet probably out of their posterior.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sisters of Battle. Extremely expensive, rules are hard to come by and their...abilities are rather limited.

Nah, the rules are easy to come by, you can buy them from the website if you have an iPad, or the BL website if you don't.. and their abilities are just fine, thanks, and power-wise actually on the same level as Tau.

Wait, wait. On the same power level as Tau? I know my sisters are stronger than most people realize....but Tau? That's a bit too much hyperbole.

I was being literal. Dominions are exactly the same as fusion suits with three markerlights on the target. Only they just turn up and kill stuff with no jiggering about with combined fire.

LOL! Sorry. One similar unit does not make the codex a similar power level.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Your main argument falls apart when you forget that we're talking about beginners here. At most, they're going to have about 40 something Guardsmen, probably about 10 of which are going to be forming Command Squads. I started playing IG with roughly 40, 20 of which went to a platoon, 10 to a Veteran Squad and the rest forming a CCS and a PCS.

A beginner neither has the models nor the will to pull a 30/40/50 man fearless blob with a Priest they haven't even considered yet probably out of their posterior.

The models have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of which armies' pmechanics are the most difficult for new players to master, which is the topic I'm discussing.

So, no. Model complications doesn't effect my argument anymore than it effects your argument regarding Dark Angels and CSM, unless you're of the belief that making a DA/CSM army is harder than making any of the horde armies?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Your main argument falls apart when you forget that we're talking about beginners here. At most, they're going to have about 40 something Guardsmen, probably about 10 of which are going to be forming Command Squads. I started playing IG with roughly 40, 20 of which went to a platoon, 10 to a Veteran Squad and the rest forming a CCS and a PCS.

A beginner neither has the models nor the will to pull a 30/40/50 man fearless blob with a Priest they haven't even considered yet probably out of their posterior.

The models have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of which armies' pmechanics are the most difficult for new players to master, which is the topic I'm discussing.

So, no. Model complications doesn't effect my argument anymore than it effects your argument regarding Dark Angels and CSM, unless you're of the belief that making a DA/CSM army is harder than making any of the horde armies?

The OP's post mentions model pricing, so I assume that the topic does include models. Just sayin'.

What does the OP's mentioning have to do with my discussion with Ailaros? Model count and pricing was mentioned in neither his posts nor any of mine.

I mean, do you see me quoting your response to Furyo and telling you that your argument fails to take into account the pricing for a Tau army versus a Sister's army?

Nope. Because it's obvious that you're discussing army mechanics, not the models themselves.

BlaxicanX wrote:What does the OP's mentioning have to do with my discussion with Ailaros? Model count and pricing was mentioned in neither his posts nor any of mine.

Well, firstly, I sort of do. It's why all those space marine armies got whacked off the list right away. They're easy to model and paint, and you can build cheap armies with them. Secondly, well, dakka rule #2.

BlaxicanX wrote:The key difference between Guard and Dark Eldar is that while Guardsmen are individually fragile, IG is a horde army which has a type of enhanced durability all in its own simply by virtue of having so many models on the board. Dark Eldar infantry are similarly vulnerable, but DE are nominally an MSU army, not a horde army, so they can't compensate for their fragility by having dudes out the ass.

Firstly, while the new codex does make blob guard better, foot guard is a but MSU army. PCSs, CCSs, HWSs, and even SWSs, plus all those other benefits you get from MSU that mean you can just straight run MSU guard.

Secondly, MSU isn't inherently weaker either. The number of dudes you put down on the table is a product of the cost of the dudes, not the number of individual units you can field them in. 20 guardsmen in a blob cost exactly as much and die exactly as quickly as 20 guardsmen in two separate squads. Actually, MSU is better in this case, because you make your opponent suffer from overkill and they have to be able to target separate units, and it's easier to get cover saves.

In the end, though, both DE and guard can put a huge pile of flimsy junk on the table. So can orks (and their vehicles don't get flickerfields, night shields, or jink, nor can they deepstrike). So can tyranid. Heck, the typical DE mech list isn't even that structurally different than a razorspam list. The vehicles are a little less durable, but are faster and you get more killing power.

There's nothing particularly special about DE here. Flimsiness isn't in itself a differentiator. Especially when it's not that much flimsier, when you look at things at an army-wide level.

BlaxicanX wrote:they make up for by having some of the hardest hitting and most durable vehicles in the game.

It's certainly true that AV14 is tougher to crack (though they're much more vulnerable to close combat, being heavy vs. fast skimmers). If a guard player is down to just his russes, though, it's going to be hard to win a game. This is, once again, because flimsiness (or lack thereof) isn't the only thing that matters.

And it's firepower is pretty good, but it's not breakaway great. I mean, just looking at killing power, they're comparable to a ravager. 3 BS4 lance shots isn't exactly puny.

BlaxicanX wrote:Their troops have similar T and Sv. That's pretty much where the similarities end.

They have a ton of similarities.

- they can both run mech armies
- they both have vehicles that can be kitted for either anti-infantry or anti-vehicle
- they both have basic infantry squads that can be kitted to be able to at least attempt to handle every threat
- they both spam cheap units
- they both rely mostly on firepower because their units (even choppy ones) are kind of fragile in CC

And then DE breaks away from guard. They don't need to plan around night fighting, because they just ignore it. You don't have to plan as much to capture objectives, because they're faster. You don't need to worry about how you're going to handle a whole big, scary class of targets (MCs), because everything is poisoned. And you don't need to worry about nurgle bikers for that matter, either. And with open-topped fast skimmers instead of walking or transports that don't work in assault, it's even going to be easier if you want to run an assault army.

You can't gunline as well with DE, which, honestly, yeah, erodes much of all that, but IG and DE are definitely in roughly the same league of being non-noob friendly when just looking at the metric of how easy they are to play.

Compared to armies with more serious mobility problems (tyranid, demons) and super-specialized units that can't take many useful upgrades (demons, eldar, still sort of tyranid), and that have a lot of special rules to remember and a lot of paperwork (demons, eldar), and that you're going to struggle to have duplicates of any one unit, causing redundancy problems (etc.).

Guard and DE certainly aren't at the top of the easiest, but they're not at the top of the hardest either. Especially when you throw in all that other stuff about price and painting and eBayability, etc.

 MWHistorian wrote:

LOL! Sorry. One similar unit does not make the codex a similar power level.

Maybe if you weren't so invested in crying 'woe is me, my army is so weak', you'd be able to extrapolate that thats not the only similarity and advantage we have.

 Ailaros wrote:

Firstly, while the new codex does make blob guard better, foot guard is a but MSU army. PCSs, CCSs, HWSs, and even SWSs, plus all those other benefits you get from MSU that mean you can just straight run MSU guard.

Secondly, MSU isn't inherently weaker either. The number of dudes you put down on the table is a product of the cost of the dudes, not the number of individual units you can field them in. 20 guardsmen in a blob cost exactly as much and die exactly as quickly as 20 guardsmen in two separate squads. Actually, MSU is better in this case, because you make your opponent suffer from overkill and they have to be able to target separate units, and it's easier to get cover saves.

Sure, but I didn't say that MSU was bad. What I said is that MSU for Dark Eldar is harder than MSU for Guard, because, emphasis on "multiple" in MSU, the Guard can simply throw more guys onto the table than MSU Dark Eldar can. MSU Dark Eldar maxes out at 6 units of ten without delving into additional detachments or alternate FoC's. MSU Guard maxes out at 30 infantry squads. Obviously points limits will make putting that many dudes on the table almost impossible, but you understand my point. A naked space marine squad can wipe an MSU Warrior squad with as much ease as it can wipe an MSU Guardsmen squad, but the difference is that in most cases, the Guard player isn't losing a 1/6th of its firepower from a single round of a single tac squad shooting.

Heck, the typical DE mech list isn't even that structurally different than a razorspam list. The vehicles are a little less durable, but are faster and you get more killing power.

The difference being Space Marines without a transport are still T4 3+ sv wearing badasses, while an MSU warrior-squad without a transport is up gak-creek. This is basically a re-telling of one of my original stated points, which is that Dark Eldar rely entirely on performing a crippling alpha-strike, which is where strong firepower and speed are important. The problem is that if it doesn't go off for any reason, including something as simple as the Dark Eldar player going second or facing a drop-pod list, they're boned. Dark Eldar don't have the durability of MEQ or the model count of horde armies like IG, Orks and Tyranids to shrug off enemy attacks. A single round of shooting from any decently ranged army can quite easily rip them apart, as I pointed out earlier. I've merc'd almost a thousand points of 'em with a drop-pod salamanders list turn one.

It's certainly true that AV14 is tougher to crack (though they're much more vulnerable to close combat, being heavy vs. fast skimmers). If a guard player is down to just his russes, though, it's going to be hard to win a game. This is, once again, because flimsiness (or lack thereof) isn't the only thing that matters.

And it's firepower is pretty good, but it's not breakaway great. I mean, just looking at killing power, they're comparable to a ravager. 3 BS4 lance shots isn't exactly puny.

You seem to be mostly on my page, here, so not a whole lot for me to address. lol@the Ravager though. Three ravagers will just barely knock out a single Chimera with average rolls. And then being AV11 open-topped vehicles with 36'' guns and no JSJ capabilities, they'll probably get wrecked the very next turn.

They have a ton of similarities.

- they can both run mech armies
- they both have vehicles that can be kitted for either anti-infantry or anti-vehicle
- they both have basic infantry squads that can be kitted to be able to at least attempt to handle every threat
- they both spam cheap units
- they both rely mostly on firepower because their units (even choppy ones) are kind of fragile in CC

You're describing almost every faction in the game here, bar some exceptions. .

The point is that having all the speed in the world isn't going to save your AV10 vehicles with their T3 5+ passengers from getting blown to gak the next turn. Using your own words from when a member told you that your Khorne list would never win against Eldar: "the board is only so big". Dark Eldar firepower is good, but it's not reliable, and will quite often fail to cripple your opponent fast enough for them to not wipe out your own guys.

Winning with Dark Eldar is not impossible, but they are a live or die alpha-strike army. You take everything you have, throw them at an opponent and try to kill as much of his good stuff as possible to prevent a strong counter-attack, if that doesn't work, the game is pretty much over for you. To that end, Dark Eldar are one of the hardest armies to learn, because not only does it lack any leeway for mistakes, like horde armies or MEQ armies do, but you have to possess a thorough knowledge of other armies as well, to maximize the potency of your alpha-strike. Dark Eldar players don't get to say "huh, that Leman Russ is turning out to be a pain, I better knock it out now so it doesn't stop me from getting that objective later" at the top of turn 3. If you haven't already killed his Leman Russ by the top of turn 3, any units you would have had to reliably kill it are probably dead already.

Wait, is someone seriously still trying to argue that sisters are as strong as Tau? I agree, they are not as weak as everyone says nor was MWHistorian saying they were. But to say they are on equal footing with one of the most powerful armies is ridiculous. We get that you like them but be realistic.

For a beginner I would vote DE, cause they are not forgiving. Wouldnt say DE are in general harder to play than other armies, cause they have some really nice toys, but you have to know how to use them. While this applies to other armies too, the fragility and costs of youre dudes just dont allow you to try around for 2 or 3 turns like Space Marines. You need a clear focus. Somebody who knows the game will identify the biggest threads for his guys and eliminate them with the high firepower DE have. But a beginner? Well normally he barely knows his own army, how should he know what is a theat on the other side of the table?

DE need good target priority and movement. If youve got that, DE are fine and not THAT hard to play. If you dont (like most beginners) you will loose every game.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

LOL! Sorry. One similar unit does not make the codex a similar power level.

Maybe if you weren't so invested in crying 'woe is me, my army is so weak', you'd be able to extrapolate that thats not the only similarity and advantage we have.

I just said that they're stronger than most people give them credit for. But to put them on the same level as Tau is not even close to being true. I've been playing them since '98. I know my Sisters. I love beating people that think they're in for an easy fight. Most people I play will agree that Sisters are tough. But they're not Tau tough. No one ever compares their new codex with "But what tools does it have to beat the Sisters of Battle?" (I'll give you three guess which two codexes they do compare them with.) Sisters just don't have the OP units Tau does. I think that's a good thing. SOB is right where they and other codexes should be. But the Tau and Eldar dexs are too powerful and should be brought back a little. Nid, chaos and Ork dexes should be buffed a bit.