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Talking C:SM here (not BA). I mean seriously; 25pts a model, 5 attacks in the charge if you take the banner - which you do. Plus a 2+ armour save and your choice of power weapon. What's not to like love? Stick em in a LR and/or put (a variant) CM Smash er at the front to tank saves and you're done. Yes they don't have an invun but so what?! They cost 25 points EACH!

But seriously - why don't we see more of these guys?

I4, T4, WS4, 1 W.

At the end of the day, still just marines. Which means they usually lose to other dedicated CC units, and there are cheaper options in the SM book to bully non-assault units (that doesn't require a 250pt transport).

Because assault isn't that important in 7th (or 6th..or really even 5th) edition.. You're paying an extreme amount of points for a unit which probably won't do a whole lot except maybe kill a single unit, then they'll die to anything AP2.. If the LR is immoblized or destroyed you're looking at a useless unit.

Unfortunately, units which are only useful inside a land raider fell out of style a long long time ago (If they were even good which I don't believe they were).

There are 3 rules for an assault unit since 6th ed.

1 ) Move 12" and be able to assault - Honor guard fails this as a LR is too expensive

2 ) Re-roll charge range - HG fail this also. Thus they are not reliable

3 ) Ignore terrain - HG also fail this so they are too slow to be of use.

There is a reason basically no one uses HG..and never has. Pure assault unit with no shooting, no movement bonus, average stats and no invul is fairly useless.

Actually all kitted out my HG unit costs me 210 points, Rhino included. OMG they need a LR! No. No they don't. A LR is nice, but far from essential.

Say what you want, I play with them almost every game. They are the bane of my opponents existence. Everyone hates them, they draw fire like a hot lead magnet, and most times, they can take it. Their CM can toss out the Orbital, which you should be doing every time he hits the table. I run them with a Chaplain and then you poor sucker, you have to kill every last one mwuhahahaha! Or you know, snipe the Chap, but whatever.

At the end of the day they are still just Marines, I agree. Some things will nuke them hard, but guess what. Everything has that downfall. People take a unit and look at it like it's the only thing on the table and then of course come away with the impression that thing is underpowered, but really, you're building a list, not optimizing one unit. Or at least that's how you should be doing it. I mean I don't sit there and say, I'm bringing my HG, and they're going to win the game, because they have a wicked cool name. I think, now here is another element in the assault.

I know HG will die to AP and lack any real options for ranged support, and I build my list accordingly. HG can't have lascannons AND free power weapons? Darn, guess I'll have to take Devs huh?

Mind you... why take Devs? They can't protect their 20 point guns, must be useless. Write them off. In fact, throw your Devs away right now.

edit: In fact, sometimes I feel bad for using them because my meta hates them so much!

Oh, I agree, units in a vacuum generally look silly one way or another. But my point is, relative to the codex, they're still pretty expensive for not doing much that can't already be done.

It may work for you, props if it does, but I wouldn't do it. Especially in a Rhino. Turn three assault best case and the game's almost over.

honor guard is 25 points for an Ap3 weapon, 2 attacks, and art armor. That's 3 (counting two hand weapons) s4, ap3 attacks and a 2+ armor save. For 25 pts.

Assault termies (with TH/SS) are 45 points straight. That's 2 s8, ap2, unwieldy, concussive attacks and a 2+/3++ save. For 45 points.

S8 means the termies can instant death most things, and Ap2 means you ignore most armor. Concussive means that everything hits at i1 next turn (if they survive). AP2 weapons won't cause an auto-wound. Even tac termies have power fists and a 5+ invuln.

To get a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer on the Honor guard, that's an additional 30 points. Even relic blades + SS = 25 additional points. So at the least, to mimic assault termies would cost 50-55 points per model instead of 45. And you don't get the dedicated transport (so you have to use up a Heavy Support Slot).

That's the main issue with the honor guard. Before, when power swords ignored armor, they would've been much stronger. Now that they don't, Honor guard are weak against 2+ armor, can't threaten heavy vehicles, can't instant death really, and get annihilated by any AP2 weapons. Grav, plasma, LCs, melta, and more simply destroy them.

That's the main problem with honor guard. By the time they function as a really useful Melee threat, you're paying more than Assault termies, anyway, and you're taking up a heavy support slot with a land raider.

Honor Guard actually come stock with a power weapon. So it can be an axe, sword, or maul. Worth mentioning.

I dunno, I think they work fine in a drop pod, put them where you want them....

but I ally with DA to give them a PFG

The biggest issue I ahve is they require a Chapter Master, and imo the chapter master sucks. (especially not on a bike)

take a mix of power weapons? it would be like showing up to a rock-paper-scissors match with all three and spock and lizard too. the only thing that would beat you would be Bruce Lee or gun. an interesting idea.

It's got a bit of potential. Fat squad in a raider with some swords, some mauls, some axes, plus chaplain and a banner. CM too, if you want to be truly nasty.

The sole solitary reason I built a marine army at all is because of my Honor Guard. Every single game I bring them. And every single game I have a blast using them.

I've tried to bring them to tournaments too... But unfortunately never do well with them.

 Hashbeth wrote:
honor guard is 25 points for an Ap3 weapon, 2 attacks, and art armor. That's 3 (counting two hand weapons) s4, ap3 attacks and a 2+ armor save. For 25 pts.

Assault termies (with TH/SS) are 45 points straight. That's 2 s8, ap2, unwieldy, concussive attacks and a 2+/3++ save. For 45 points.

S8 means the termies can instant death most things, and Ap2 means you ignore most armor. Concussive means that everything hits at i1 next turn (if they survive). AP2 weapons won't cause an auto-wound. Even tac termies have power fists and a 5+ invuln.

To get a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer on the Honor guard, that's an additional 30 points. Even relic blades + SS = 25 additional points. So at the least, to mimic assault termies would cost 50-55 points per model instead of 45. And you don't get the dedicated transport (so you have to use up a Heavy Support Slot).

That's the main issue with the honor guard. Before, when power swords ignored armor, they would've been much stronger. Now that they don't, Honor guard are weak against 2+ armor, can't threaten heavy vehicles, can't instant death really, and get annihilated by any AP2 weapons. Grav, plasma, LCs, melta, and more simply destroy them.

That's the main problem with honor guard. By the time they function as a really useful Melee threat, you're paying more than Assault termies, anyway, and you're taking up a heavy support slot with a land raider.

I think you'll find that if you do the math, HG w axed cause more unsaved wounds that TH/SS termis so yeah.

210pts makes them roughly the tame price as a kitted out tac squad and it should be noted that HG have bolters too.

bryceloop wrote:

The biggest issue I ahve is they require a Chapter Master, and imo the chapter master sucks. (especially not on a bike)

^this

Only playable CM is 200+ points monstrosity

You really can't afford more than 400-500 points of HtH in a competitive SM list.

So you got like 150-250 points for a HG, which is not enough for a LR, and all other transports for them are not so good.

Loads of AP2 not helps too.

All good points:

Consider -

CM with Artificer, Shield Eternal plus whatever toys you fancy.
Complement of 5-9 Honour Guard, banner, TH on the Champion.
Drop Pod.


Be intelligent with where you put the Drop Pod, Let the CM tank the AP2 hits. Any others, Look out Sir them. Ideally pod in a couple of dreadnoughts a little more aggressively so they have to make a decision to get killed by a dread or HG.

Survive this turn of hits, give them a kicking next turn.

Jeez if it ain't an Assault Terminator in a Land Raider, get the hell out huh?

The Chapter Master can be kitted for 220, that's 430 points all day to get a nearly full complement of HG, with all the gear. A Chaplain, 90 points, run him bare. Add in the Banner Bearer, and now we are at 550-ish.

How much for Termies again? ZOMG its about the same?! But wait! you get like 5 more HG? 5 more free power weapons of my own choosing?

NOPE! Screw that, gonna ebay off all the rest of my army for THSS Termies and never look back.

edit: I'm sorry, it just seems like so much rhetoric. It's like Dogma FFS! Look, go ahead and skip out on the HG, I really don't care. It's your list, you build it right? If you don't wanna use unit X then that's fine, but don't try to argue down the merits of the unit with trivial BS arguments like "these guys are better". Well damn son! A LOT of units are better, but we're here to discuss why the HG are not used more often and I think this thread has served it's purpose by showing us that people have a lot of misconceptions about them and that is why they are not used.

darkcloak wrote:
Jeez if it ain't an Assault Terminator in a Land Raider, get the hell out huh?

The Chapter Master can be kitted for 220, that's 430 points all day to get a nearly full complement of HG, with all the gear. A Chaplain, 90 points, run him bare. Add in the Banner Bearer, and now we are at 550-ish.

How much for Termies again? ZOMG its about the same?! But wait! you get like 5 more HG? 5 more free power weapons of my own choosing?

NOPE! Screw that, gonna ebay off all the rest of my army for THSS Termies and never look back.

I'm detecting a trace amounts of sarcasm here.

Who isn't using Honor Guard?

They seem to be the primary perk of taking the hideously expensive Master.

 Tigurius wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
Jeez if it ain't an Assault Terminator in a Land Raider, get the hell out huh?

The Chapter Master can be kitted for 220, that's 430 points all day to get a nearly full complement of HG, with all the gear. A Chaplain, 90 points, run him bare. Add in the Banner Bearer, and now we are at 550-ish.

How much for Termies again? ZOMG its about the same?! But wait! you get like 5 more HG? 5 more free power weapons of my own choosing?

NOPE! Screw that, gonna ebay off all the rest of my army for THSS Termies and never look back.

I'm detecting a trace amounts of sarcasm here.

editted for apologetic aftertones.

Not tryin to be a dick, but it just comes out sometimes.

... No pun intended!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, cool thing about the HG that I think is overlooked.

The Chapter Champion can take swap his Boltgun out for a free CCW, and swap his power weapon for a Thunderhammer. Now when you challenge, you can either go first or last depending. Also, this looks so epic wysiwyg'd

I think it's a solid unit, and if they had an invul save they would be too powerful. Besides with IH CT, you get a sort of conditional invul save. CM same thing, if that tank were any cheaper he'd be on every table, on a bike, every time. What fun is that?

I know I said I use the CM+HG all the time, but really only in larger games over 1200 points. Otherwise it's way too expensive. Though I guess we usually play 2000 point plus, so... I do use them a lot.

And it's not that I don't recognize the flaws of the HG. I'm all too painfully aware of them when their Rhino gets popped, or they get levelled by Terminators. All I'm saying is that if you're dead set against HG, then go try them out next game and give them a fair chance. Who knows? You might even find out that you like them!

Point of contention - another unit being better than HG is not trivial. It's a pretty solid reason to not take HG. That said, hammernators and HG serve slightly different roles. I send hammernators at the toughest nut on the board to check it and crack it. HG go after anything that can't easily bust 2+ and ruin their day.

There's also the fact that people generally don't take assault terminators and still see them better than HG.

Because they're priced like CC is still in 4th edition.

I've been running Pedro for his ability to make Sternguard scoring units w/ objective secured. Pedro = CM who also gives all units in 6" an extra attack. 4 PW attacks and artificer per man? Yes please. I've been running Pedro and 6 HG buddies in a rhino for a few weeks and im lovin it. Incredibly nasty blender unit for < 450.

Honour Guard beat out Assault Termies for me any day, and would be my go-to for a CC powerhouse unit in the SM codex.

You can get twice as many in a Land Raider, and additional characters if you take a variant (The LRC works nicely here). You can buy them a Drop Pod for a potential T2 assault. You have a tot of versatility in weapon choice, and the freedom to mix and match. Against small arms they're twice as durable as Marines, and against AP1/2 they're only 33% less likely to survive than Termninators, the trade-off being you get more wounds for your points, and lose 25 points to a kill rather than 40+.

They have decent shooting to work well in a Drop Pod assault, so are more versatile than CC termies.

The biggest advantage over termies, though, is the fact they can Sweeping Advance. Termies get bogged down way too easily even when they do a ton of damage as there's no chance to auto-kill the rest of the unit, with HG you can wipe a unit a turn.

How do you figure only 33% less survivability?

Termies have a 5++, so save 33% of AP1/2 wounds. HG have no ++, so save 0% of AP1/2 wounds. 33-0=33%.

Of course, for TH/SS termies, the survival rate is double, but at the expense of shooting, a lower model count, lower potential wounds and no SA, HG are still the way to go.

Raw math I get you. Potentially, however, terminators of any variety are infinitely more survivable than HG vs AP 1/2 because they actually get to take a save. And I rather doubt anybody is comparing HG to shooting terminators.

But again, I think they serve different purposes. I wouldn't throw HG at a bloodthirster, nor would I throw terminators at a blob of guardsmen.

I wouldn't throw HG or Hammernators at a blob of Guardsmen. I'd throw 3 pods of Grey Hunters at them, dump 60 bolter shots into them, then what ever is left can get assaulted by one pack of Grey Hunters while the other two go do something else.

Honour Guard are bad because Space Marines are, across the board, bad at combat. Hammernators are the only thing the army has that are good in combat and even they suffer from having too few attacks and paying points for a BS4 that they can't make any use of.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Raw math I get you. Potentially, however, terminators of any variety are infinitely more survivable than HG vs AP 1/2 because they actually get to take a save. And I rather doubt anybody is comparing HG to shooting terminators.

But again, I think they serve different purposes. I wouldn't throw HG at a bloodthirster, nor would I throw terminators at a blob of guardsmen.

A 2+/5++ isn't remarkably better than a 2+/whatever cover save the HG get, though. In CC the invul matters, but HG should probably not be charging units that have a lot of AP2 attacks anyway, so the invulnerable save issue should mostly matter when the unit is out in the open, and that doesn't favor the terminators as much as it initially seems.

But as I said, I doubt anybody is comparing HG to shooting or LC terminators. It's hammernators, which rock a 3++, which is notably better. HG want to attack things that the rest of the army is fine killing with guns. Hammernators tackle things that the guns have a hard time killing, but with grav centurions hitting the field even that isn't necessary most of the time.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Honour Guard are bad because Space Marines are, across the board, bad at combat. Hammernators are the only thing the army has that are good in combat and even they suffer from having too few attacks and paying points for a BS4 that they can't make any use of.

Exept that HG beat hammernators....

And Padagrim, don't forget TH/SS termis get a 3++ not 5++

 obsidiankatana wrote:
But as I said, I doubt anybody is comparing HG to shooting or LC terminators. It's hammernators, which rock a 3++, which is notably better. HG want to attack things that the rest of the army is fine killing with guns. Hammernators tackle things that the guns have a hard time killing, but with grav centurions hitting the field even that isn't necessary most of the time.

That's the main reason they're not seen in a lot of games - hammernators fill the same battlefield role, but better. To compare:

5 man Terminator Assault Squad
4x hammer/ss, 1x lightning claws
2+, 3++ saves
220pts

7 man honor guard squad
7x power weapons (power axes or power mauls, usually)
2+ save
drop pod
220pts

The only advantages that the honor guard squad are bringing to the table are the two extra bodies, more attacks (22 vs 11), and the ability to arrive from reserves on turn 1. The hammernators bring to the table a 3++ invulnerable save (a HUGE advantage), and S8 attacks (a HUGE advantage). The honor guard will do a lot better against soft targets, sure - they get lots of attacks, the low strength of their power weapons and lack of invul save is not a liability, and they can perform sweeping advances. But against "hard" targets - Monstrous Creature, deathstars and beatstick ICs - the hammernator's S8 attacks and invul saves means they will be doing more damage and taking fewer wounds in retaliation.

Okay, so honor guard are still useful against soft targets? Well... they need to actually survive that one turn that they disembark, and they so often get shot to death by AP2 fire. Hammernators are much more durable when standing out in the open, so they end up being a better choice even when you might think that honor guard have a role to play.

I should say: honor guard are still a functional unit, and I've seen them used to great effect. But they're not a good choice if you're playing competitively.