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well played my 4th game of 7th ed today in a local gaming clubs Tournament that they are running....i was pitted up against a Daemon player and the last time i played Daemons was early 6th cuz their new dex nerfed them like a freight train with no brakes so I thought "well this should be easy"......I was horribly HORRIBLY WRONG. so what makes the list i went up against soooooooo cheesy that Velveeta says there's too much? the guy had mostly Heavy hitting Greater Daemons (Tzeentch and Slanessh) which i expected but he had 14 Warp Charge points before he even rolled and what Psychic disipline did he choose you may be asking? Daemonology....Malefic so basically the whole game he summoned squads of Plaguebearers THEN when those squads got below 3 models he turned them into Greater Daemons....and the Process repeated itself until he wiped me Turn 5. We tallyed up how many points he actually would have had if he had brought everything that he summoned......at the end my 2,000pt army went up against a 3,750pt army........ugh...I dont want to play 40K anymore.....seriously if this is the kinda S*** to be expected from 7th I just dont know anymore my army has been nerfed ever since 6th and im just not having fun anymore even friendly games seem too competitive.....I dont know what do you guys think? (about the new Daemon Cheese i mean)

On the bright side, at least you can do the same thing. But yeah, that's something people quickly figured out with 7th edition; that player sounds like a jerk, but sadly stuff like that is legal by the rules.

I have the distinct feeling that something wasn't played correctly here.

Plague Bearers can never be turned into Greater Daemons. Only, the Psyker or Botherhood of Psykers Unit can be turned into a Greater Daemon being sacrificed in the process.

Daemon Factory is a viable strategy, just not a terribly competitive one.

Had the rules been followed, I think the described scenario was completely and utterly impossible as described. I strongly suggest your read the Malefic powers closely as well as the rules for Psykers.

Dangerously cheesy!!!!

out of curiosity what was your list?

Plaguebearers can't be turned into Greater Daemons, the caster must sacrifice him/herself to become one. The only time you kill your own guys is when using Sacrifice to summon Heralds.

His two Greater Daemons are only giving him 6 Warp Charges, where are his other 8 coming from? Horrors and/or Heralds, I assume - Yes, he can hide those, but they aren't impossible to kill to reduce his warp charge points. Without any details about your battle it's hard to be certain, but it does sound like your target priority could have been better.

Summoning requires 3 Warp Charges, each die you throw has a 50% chance of being successful. This means you have to throw quite a lot of dice at each cast to be certain of a success.

Which army did you run yourself?

@Desubot Blood Angels

@Zagman Sorry I meant Pink horrors not Plauges



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@GrafWattenburgMade he had 2 Greater Dae of Tzeentch, a Gearter Dae of Slanessh and the kairos Fateweaver which has 8 Mastery Lvls the rules said each head is a Mastery LVL 4 and it had 2 heads so 8 WCP

A summoned unit of Pink Horrors gets one power on the Malefic table, that is a 1 in 6 chance of getting the power to become a Greater Daemon. Either your opponent had incredible luck with getting that on all his squads, or something is fishy.

he was using the Greater Daemons to cast everything on the little guys......I just assumed he knew i looked at the rules and assumed everything works like Fantasy he drew all WCP from his pool on those Horror squads

Two Lords of Change, Fateweaver and a Keeper of Secrets, all maxed out with Psyker levels, costs 1060 points. That's before counting any upgrades (loci, rewards). That is over half his army (you said it was 2k points ,right?)

Possession, the Greater Daemon-spell, is cast by a Psyker that has gotten the power and removes said psyker and replaces it with a Greater Daemon, you can't choose to remove another unit than the one casting it. You can with Sacrifice (the Herald-summoning), but not Possession (as the names imply)

Fateweaver himself only creates 4 Warp Charge points. It specifically says "Note that as Kairos Fateweaver can only use one head at a time, he only generates the Warp Charge points for a single Mastery Level 4 Psyker, not two." So he is not generating 8 Warp Charges.

Summoning factories aren't that bad to play against if they're played by the rules

I love when people cry cheese but yet will not say what they were playing. OP you were already asked. What was your army?

Davor wrote:
I love when people cry cheese but yet will not say what they were playing. OP you were already asked. What was your army?

He already answered that question he was playing blood angels.

Well id cry cheese too if from the sounds of it. I have a feeling daemons was playing it wrong. though i dont has my psychic power list on hand atm.

I don't know enough about Daemons in 7th to say anything, but I will say congrats on having serious cojones running BA in a tourney. I like your style However, I would ask what list specifically were you running? Can you provide an army list?

That doesn't even begin to sound like fun.

I hadn't played Daemons in forever and I assumed what he was telling me was the truth "Oh its in the FaQ" was a common thing he said throughout the game....i dont care i play to have fun not to get wiped by a guy who plays to win with an Chesse List

This was my list btw

Captain...Warlord
-Artificer armor
-Jump Pack
- Teeth of Terra

Captain
-Artificer armor
-Jump Pack

Troops:
X2 Assault Squads
-10 Man Squad
-2 Plasma Pistols
-Power Sword
-Sanguiniary Priest

Scouts
-Camo Cloaks
-Sniper Rifles
-Locator Beacon

Elites
Hammer/Shield termies
-5 man squad

Legion of The Damned
-10 man squad
-flamer
-heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
Land Raider

X2 Vindicators

Storm Raven


Like I said I play to have fun not to be competitive

Wait this is BA? Unbound? or BA with SM allies?

with SM allies cuz like i said... our (BA) dex got nerfed

Fateweaver only generates 4 WC, says so in his entry.

Pink Horrors only get one roll on Maelific, so he must have gotten incredibly lucky not only in rolling powers, but in his ability to successfully cast those powers. You only have a 50% chance of successfully casting Possession or any WC3 power on 5 dice.

So, you cry cheese when the more likely answer is that you were playing a softer list, your oppenent was playing a stronger list, neither of you had a full grasp of the relevant rules, and at least one thing, Kairos' WC generation was played wrong.

I wouldn't cry cheese just yet.

Also, you said you were playing for fun with a softer lists, what do you expect when your opponent isn't playing the same game as you were at a tournament.

i wasnt the only one there were like 15 people at the tournie who called chesse on it.....and I say "tournie" its more like a wargaming day its once a month when everyone shows up to play 40k and hang out at the club. Everyone at the club comes to expect this from this guy.. as soon as a new dex comes out he buys a new army and runes the chesse list....so i guess next time well see Orks....Ugh

If he runs the list wrong (as in not knowing the rules or actually cheating) I don't think it's fair to call the army/list cheese when it's the player causing it.

Yeah the psyker is himself dies and is turned into a greater deamon. From how youre telling it, it sounds like the psykers are turning pink horrors squads into greater deamons? Thats not how it works.

You weren't playing against a "Daemon Factory" , but instead " I'm going to cheat" list.

Guy straight up was cheating. Bring it up when you see him again.

Yeah his attitude stinks as your opponent was definitely cheating on a large number of rules. Pretty sad really. If you want to know the limitations of the daemons conjuration spells you should check out this thread; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598376.page

A number of the new "cheese" list complaints I have seen so far in 7ed have just been not knowing the relevant rules or people taking advantage of the relative rules ignorance of a new edition to actively cheat.