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The 40k community here on Dakka is decidedly toxic. A couple of years ago, I too found myself in the GW haters camp, and I'd like to share one simple truth, and my story of how I found my way back into loving 40k.

First off, here's the "truth" I mentioned for all of you haters out there: Your bitching here about all things GW, from their rules to their release schedule to their prices, will do nothing to change GW. Absolutely nothing. You're really just wasting your time and energy by complaining on these forums. The only thing that will change what GW does is how you vote with your wallet. It feels good to vent, I know, but just realize that's all you're accomplishing.

And now, my story of how I escaped the haters camp. I used to consider myself a pretty competitive player, though on the local level rather than nationally. After getting sick of GW for all of the reasons you hear around here (loose rules and prices, mostly), I went looking for a new game, and found Warmachine/Hordes. I bragged to all of my friends who were still playing 40k about how much better Warmahordes was, how much tighter the rules are, how it actually matters how I played on the tabletop instead of being won or lost in the list-building phase, how the boosting system removed some of the luck from the game and made it more of a competitive experience. I also came on here to try to convince people to stop playing 40k and play Warmahordes instead.

Now, two years later, after completely skipping 6th edition and playing tons of Warmahordes, I've found myself longing for a more casual gaming experience and once again buying GW models. I'm building up a Black Templars army, and I'm LOVING it. I've loved the Templars since I was a kid, but I didn't have enough money to build the army back in 4th edition and they weren't competitive in 5th. Now that I'm finally working on them, I've never felt so motivated to model and paint in my life. I'm playing casual games with fluffy lists, not caring if I win or lose, and it's a ton of fun. I still play Warmahordes when I feel like playing a competitive game, but if I'm looking to relax I turn to 40k.

The reason you (if you find yourself in the haters camp) hate 40k is because you want it to be something that it is not. 40k is not a competitive ruleset. 40k is a beer and pretzels, casual, lets-get-together-and-put-some-awesome-models-on-the-table-and-roll-some-dice-and-see-what-happens kind of game. It sucks that GW used to attempt to cater to the competitive player and no longer does, but that's how it is, and bitching on Dakka isn't going to change it. If you're unhappy with 40k, move on to a new system to scratch your competitive itch.

TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW. If you hate 40k because you are a competitive gamer, check out something else (like Warmahordes), like I did. You may find that, like me, in a couple years you will appreciate 40k for what it actually is, instead of hating it for not being what you wish it was. Or you may find that you still hate GW, and if so, perhaps forums that are primarily focused on 40k are not for you.

What is it this reminds of? Oh yeh - billy goats gruff! Do you like bridges perchance?

 Nate668 wrote:
TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW. If you hate 40k because you are a competitive gamer, check out something else (like Warmahordes), like I did. You may find that, like me, in a couple years you will appreciate 40k for what it actually is, instead of hating it for not being what you wish it was. Or you may find that you still hate GW, and if so, perhaps forums that are primarily focused on 40k are not for you.

But what if you play with a competitive mindset but like to do all the conversions and fun stuff associated with 40k that you cant do with warmahords and greatly dislikes warmahords aesthetics and fluff.

You cant just tell people to piss off and abandon the game they are already heavily invested in. and a simple find a new game is hardly helpful. there will always be resentment towards GW so long as they stay castled up and completely disconnected from the fan base.

and apparently the whole vote with your wallet is happening as sales continue to drop.

Nate... if everyone stopped hating on GW, conversations on this forum would die.

Do you really want to see Dakka die? Do you? Is that what you want?

and drop and drop and prices increase to compensate. So the faithful that stay, have to suffer with price increases. Again, not fair how you treat your customers now is it?

 Nate668 wrote:

TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW.

...unkike bitching about bitching on Dakka!

The cure is a petition and a protest on their next release. If just half the players world wide stopped buying their products for a month they would make drastic changes. Remember they dont care about us. They care about our money in our wallets. Until we start using it as a weapon against them, they will keep using it as a weapon against us.

I'm sort of the same boat as you Nate. I am not a competitive player by any standard. I think competitive 40k is a complete and total mess. I too am building a non-competitive Black Templars army consisting of a bunch of heavy tanks because I like the look of the army. Easy to paint too. You know what, though? I still dislike GW. They're price gouging is out of control. If they want to sell me a casual, Beer and Pretzels (Which 40k isn't) game about making pew pew noises with unpainted/badly painted models... good on them. But 80 fething dollars? For three books of which two that I'll never get as much out of? It's insane. Completely insane. Not only are the rules overly complex but the balance is just crap. And they want $50 for their codices? Their poorly edited, poorly playtested, poorly balanced and quasi-catalogue codices? No! It's insanity. It'd be insanity even if were free. I could bear with GW on their pricing scheme if the rules were tight but they aren't.

 Gold tooth Jerry wrote:
If just half the players world wide stopped buying their products for a month they would make drastic changes.

Almost certainly not. They've not made any real changes even with continuing declines in sales volumes... other than to continue the exact same policies than lost them that sales volume in the first place.

To the OP: I quite enjoy 40k and other gw games... doesnot mean I have to bow to gw and love them unconditionally.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Nate668 wrote:

TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW.

...unkike bitching about bitching on Dakka!

Haha, the big difference here is that people who bitch on Dakka read and respond to posts on Dakka, while GW likely does not do the former and most certainly does not do the latter.

@Desubot: If people are putting so much time, effort and money into a game that they hate, I strongly believe that "pissing off," or at least taking a break for a year or two, is better than continuing to participate in something that makes them so unhappy. Maybe they'll find a game that works for them, like I did, or maybe the game that they want doesn't exist. Either way, it's a waste of time to complain about it on Dakka.

@Gold Tooth: All you can do is vote with your own wallet. The people who do not enjoy 40k should not be putting money into it, while the people who do enjoy 40k, flawed though it may be, will vote with theirs.

I quit GW for 3 years and spent that time on Privateer press and Spartan Games games, and came to the conclusion that it's the same gak everywhere. Might as well buy the minis that come with the most extra bits.

You can also like 40k/whfb and not give a penny to GW.

I will always like 40k. I've been playing 40k games since I was five years old and it holds many fond memories that continue to draw me to it. I am disappointed with the way GW is directing the game, but I feel I will at least stick with 40k as a casual game for as long as I can. Or at least play more Space Hulk.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I still dislike GW. They're price gouging is out of control. If they want to sell me a casual, Beer and Pretzels (Which 40k isn't) game about making pew pew noises with unpainted/badly painted models... good on them. But 80 fething dollars? For three books of which two that I'll never get as much out of? It's insane. Completely insane. Not only are the rules overly complex but the balance is just crap. And they want $50 for their codices? Their poorly edited, poorly playtested, poorly balanced and quasi-catalogue codices? No! It's insanity. It'd be insanity even if were free. I could bear with GW on their pricing scheme if the rules were tight but they aren't.

This sums up my dissapointments. I wish what you are saying was not true

 Nate668 wrote:

TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW. If you hate 40k because you are a competitive gamer, check out something else (like Warmahordes), like I did. You may find that, like me, in a couple years you will appreciate 40k for what it actually is, instead of hating it for not being what you wish it was. Or you may find that you still hate GW, and if so, perhaps forums that are primarily focused on 40k are not for you.

People bitch because they love their game and it is frustrating when their time and money are essentially wasted with bad business decisions and rule changes. 7th was a good move, but they are still denying the competitive players the game they want. I agree, this community is often toxic, but it is because GW fuels the fire.

40K is a great pass-time/hobby. When I want to play a game for real I play Warmachine. When I want to BS with friends while moving my pretty army around the field I play Yahtzee-hammer.

As for the bitching, it will continue regardless of how little it does. Many of us have a lot invested and don't like seeing GW slap us in the face. That said, I do like 7th with slight modification


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gold tooth Jerry wrote:
The cure is a petition and a protest on their next release. If just half the players world wide stopped buying their products for a month they would make drastic changes. Remember they dont care about us. They care about our money in our wallets. Until we start using it as a weapon against them, they will keep using it as a weapon against us.

Much like a drug dealer, they know enough people will pay anything. I have a friend who buys everything he sees, and rarely plays. If I say "I have some extra..." he says "I'll buy it" before I can even finish my sentence. People like that will keep GW afloat for now. It can't last forever, though.

I've been through the same cycle twice now. Hated third edition 40k and spent my time telling everyone I knew how bad it was, but slowly started to come back twoards the end of that edition as I made friends who played it.

Later I gave up again and moved on to Warmachine, looking for something more balanced and challenging. After two years of that, I realised I was not interested in the game and didn't really enjoy it, so I stopped playing and eventually sold all of my stuff.

Nowadays I play small-scale games of 40k, usually between 300 and 1000 points, although I'm looking at the Strike force rules in the new Horus Heresy book, so may go smaller. In addition to taht I have started playing Saga as well, which is a fun rule set, although I still don't get the same level of excitement out of it.

I'm getting the strangest feeling of deja vu...

Yet another "attack the supposed 'haterz' thread"

If you recognize that Warhammer 40K has problems, and yet you do not highlight those problems, then you're apart of why the game has those problems in the first place.

People who actually care about 40K will complain about it, because they see the game's potential and want it to be the best game it could possibly be.

So GW's blatant price gouging, awful business practices, questionable motions against small companies and individuals (I.e. "Spots the Space Marine") and increasingly lacklustre releases go out the window because I'm not a competitive player?

You can hate GW for reasons beyond "They can't balance their game for gak".

I'd also like to point out that most of us hate GW, and what they're doing to 40K. I like 40K, but I refuse to support GW.

 Nate668 wrote:
TL;DR: Bitching on Dakka does nothing to change GW. If you hate 40k because you are a competitive gamer, check out something else (like Warmahordes), like I did. You may find that, like me, in a couple years you will appreciate 40k for what it actually is, instead of hating it for not being what you wish it was. Or you may find that you still hate GW, and if so, perhaps forums that are primarily focused on 40k are not for you.

How does poor balance make 40k casual rather than bad?
How does paying more for less content make 40k casual rather than bad?
How goes ridiculous pricing make 40k casual rather than bad?
How does clunky rule writing make 40k casual rather than bad?

I've found much more casual games in Dreadball after stopping 40k, and see them in Deadzone, X-Wing ang DZC too which I plan to start playing soon. The games still have the same (or more) depth that 40k does, but they're made more casual by being quicker as they're not bogged down by clunky rules, they're cheaper to get into and they already have more players than 40k does around here now. So basically the premise of your argument is entirely wrong - 40k isn't a more casual game, it's just a bad game.

Not complaining won't fix 40k. Complaining has a small chance to and since I (we) have invested a lot of money into it, you're damn straight we'll continue to complain until GW fixes their gak. Did you tell people to shut up about the Xbox One before its launch too? The huge backtracking on the ridiculous features by Microsoft as a result of the complaints are how a company should act when their customers are calling their product gak. Whether or not GW wants to fix their product is largely irrelevant - it's gak, and we're going to call it gak to make sure other people know it's gak and don't 1. waste their money and 2. support anti-customer business practices.

These forums aren't GW forums, they're 40k forums. I love 40k, I "hate" GW and their business practices. I can still discuss the fluff, modeling and PC games here, why would I want to leave?

 Nate668 wrote:
The reason you (if you find yourself in the haters camp) hate 40k is because you want it to be something that it is not. 40k is not a competitive ruleset. 40k is a beer and pretzels, casual, lets-get-together-and-put-some-awesome-models-on-the-table-and-roll-some-dice-and-see-what-happens kind of game. It sucks that GW used to attempt to cater to the competitive player and no longer does, but that's how it is, and bitching on Dakka isn't going to change it. If you're unhappy with 40k, move on to a new system to scratch your competitive itch.

False.
A 'beer and pretzels' game has a 'beer and pretzels' price-tag.
With a premium price-tag I expect a premium quality game.

People don't hate 40k and people are not in a 'haters camp'.
People are in the "I absolutely love this hobby, I love it so much that I spend thousands of dollars on it and endless hours and I want the rules to be better for the price I pay for it"-camp.

And with a 15k point army and around 7 rulebooks I am not going to quit the game because you tell me to.

Beer and pretezels games do not require encylopedia size rulebooks in order to play them.

While many of us, me included, like to take jabs about how GW live in their own bubble, that is simply a hyperbole. If you think they do not do market research and look into forums like this, you are fooling your self.

Bitching here or on any other sizable open forum, does impact company policy, either directly (aka supplement releases) or indirectly (fostering competition by commenting on prices and other companies products).

Your problem seems to stem from the harsh reality of the ever shrinking GW supporters base. If you think this is a Dakka Dakka centric issue, you need a reality check.

GW are of course free to take the game in any direction they want, though they will have to face reality if they keep going against their customer wishes, which is becoming an increasingly relevant issue, as demonstrated by their last report.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Your problem seems to stem from the harsh reality of the ever shrinking GW supporters base. If you think this is a Dakka Dakka centric issue, you need a reality check.

Uh, it is. Dakka is great for lots of things - mainly creative/painting and modelling. But if I want an actual discussion about say, a new codex, I'll go to Warseer. Because they'l actually be discussing the new codex, not just a stream of rage about why it sucks.

Give me a little rage to balance out the fawning obsequiousness any day.

 Yonan wrote:
Give me a little rage to balance out the fawning obsequiousness any day.

You're saying that a forum dedicated to discussing something, shouldn't be pro-something? You realise on most fan sites if you went around slagging off the product/hobby, you'd get banned right?

You do realize presenting the negative aspects of the topic on any - third party - forum not only wouldn't get you banned, but is desired? Nothing but sunshine and flowers doesn't help anyone. Presenting the negatives of a topic are essential for a good, balanced discussion. 80%+ of the insulting I've seen has been from pro-GW folks here, and the 20% remaining only follows after people have had enough of being insulted.

(insert amusing quip re. not caring for balance + GW)

KommissarKarl wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Give me a little rage to balance out the fawning obsequiousness any day.

You're saying that a forum dedicated to discussing something, shouldn't be pro-something? You realise on most fan sites if you went around slagging off the product/hobby, you'd get banned right?

False.

People complain about mantic over on the offical forums too. No one gets banned for it.

Looking forward to seeing that rationalised away.

So the cure for you was to switch to WarmaHordes?
In our area, there is also a move from 40k to PP games. Some players have already moved totally, others try out the new 40k rule set and intentionally try to stay with GW.