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I have a dark angel army and I have never used the azrael blob but I am feeling I want to now.

question - gonna find my book but in 7th do the warlord traits work for battle brothers? (id like the feel no pain dark angel one) edit - checked and this works!

I do not want to do the 800pt super blob of doom since they can only hold 1 objective, I just want it to be hard enough to hold on objective and threaten people who get close.

How cheap can I get it?

My basic idea was

Command HQ - naval officer (reserve help) no frills beyond officer?

2x priest (some redundancy)
2x infantry squads with 2 power axes (should I go 30? but do they take up to much room/points?)

This gives the 23 dudes (including az and priests) 4++ reroll AND feel no pain!

man with all that goodness maybe i do want to max it all out....

How are you getting Feel no Pain? I don't have my codex in front of me but I thought the warlord trait only works on Dark Angel units.

I haven't had a chance to use this in 7th but I used it a lot in 6th and it worked real well. I run 30 guard and the Sargeants have power axes and Melta bombs. That same set up is a little more now because of the price increase of the power weapons and I would add a priest or two.

azrael can pick his warlord trait and dark angel trait 6 is called "hold at all costs" his unit that is within 3" of an objective gets feel no pain.

With the new 6 objective maelstrom missions you should 100% of the time be on an objective

What's the rest of your army like? Generally because the power axe squads are only 65 (although you should probably buy melta bombs aswell) there's not much reason why not to get 50 of them. Especially since you are sinking so many points into buffing them.

Guys, why dont you read the codices properly? That FNP is for Dark angels only...

In all honesty, if you just want objective holders that can stick around, Azreal blobs are not the best choice. They can work as aggressive units, but for pure scoring with the guard, the best option is:

30 Conscripts: 90
Priest: 25

115 points for a Fearless 32 wounds, some degree of firepower/CC if you need it as a last resort, and they aren't going anywhere until they're killed to a man. You can take 2 for about the same cost as Azreal, let alone the squad he's buffing, and they'll do the job just as well.

The thing with the Az-blob is simply that you're sinking a lot of points into buffing a unit, but the cost per-model gets less the larger the squad. If you're just taking 20 guys, it works out at around 10 points a model, as the combat ability, good weapons and armour and Warlord Trait Azreal pays for aren't really getting used. That's nowhere near a good return on investment; take it on 40 guys and it's around 5ppm, which is far more reasonable, doubling their survivability for double the cost, making them as hard to kill as 80 guys.

I'm not saying don't use it, but if you do take one, it's best to go all-in.

To be fair that 4++ is fairly awesome at keeping em alive.
But at his price and tax id say go full HAM and take him in no less than 50 man squads straight forward into mid or if your lucky back field for there objectives.

 Lothar wrote:
Guys, why dont you read the codices properly? That FNP is for Dark angels only...

why dont you read it correctly? It says "warlord and unit" and in 7th battle brothers can use warlord traits......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
In all honesty, if you just want objective holders that can stick around, Azreal blobs are not the best choice. They can work as aggressive units, but for pure scoring with the guard, the best option is:

30 Conscripts: 90
Priest: 25

115 points for a Fearless 32 wounds, some degree of firepower/CC if you need it as a last resort, and they aren't going anywhere until they're killed to a man. You can take 2 for about the same cost as Azreal, let alone the squad he's buffing, and they'll do the job just as well.

The thing with the Az-blob is simply that you're sinking a lot of points into buffing a unit, but the cost per-model gets less the larger the squad. If you're just taking 20 guys, it works out at around 10 points a model, as the combat ability, good weapons and armour and Warlord Trait Azreal pays for aren't really getting used. That's nowhere near a good return on investment; take it on 40 guys and it's around 5ppm, which is far more reasonable, doubling their survivability for double the cost, making them as hard to kill as 80 guys.

I'm not saying don't use it, but if you do take one, it's best to go all-in.

This may be true but it is also unthreatening, I would ignore it and spending that many points on one objetive grabber it needs to be dangerous.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
To be fair that 4++ is fairly awesome at keeping em alive.
But at his price and tax id say go full HAM and take him in no less than 50 man squads straight forward into mid or if your lucky back field for there objectives.

problem is in 7th one unit can hold only one objective and you need to have the ability hold/threaten 6 objectives minimum, so you need the units to do it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:
What's the rest of your army like? Generally because the power axe squads are only 65 (although you should probably buy melta bombs aswell) there's not much reason why not to get 50 of them. Especially since you are sinking so many points into buffing them.

see above, in 7th you can only hold/threaten one objetive per unit so going to HAM is a detriment.

I want to have many threatening units.

Other plans I have are, bikers (since they are troops as well) and I am hoping to get 2 units of deathwing and 2 land raiders

the entire army is objetive secured

Here is my basic idea right now

Azrael

5x deathwing termies -- Landraider crusader
5x deathwing termies Landraider crusader or redeemer

AM allies

Command squad with officer for reserve help
2x priests
2x infantry squads with 2 power axes and 2 heavy weapons

Its about....1500-1600ish points right now and gives me 5 objective secured units.

I play 1850 tournies here is what I would like with the final 350 pts

deal with fliers?
1-2 more units with speed to take far objectives
maybe a dark angel hero with the field to protect the land raiders

Theorius wrote:

why dont you read it correctly? It says "warlord and unit" and in 7th battle brothers can use warlord traits......

Unfortunately no. This is the only Warlord trait in the DA codex that actually specifies 'Dark Angels unit he joins' rather then 'The Warlord and any unit he joins'. It falls down dead, no FNP for guard.

If you're going to do the blob, go all in. 50 men. Possibly choose either the Furious Charge trait, or the rapid redeployment one, in case you really need to move. Just a thought.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

Theorius wrote:

why dont you read it correctly? It says "warlord and unit" and in 7th battle brothers can use warlord traits......

Unfortunately no. This is the only Warlord trait in the DA codex that actually specifies 'Dark Angels unit he joins' rather then 'The Warlord and any unit he joins'. It falls down dead, no FNP for guard.

If you're going to do the blob, go all in. 50 men. Possibly choose either the Furious Charge trait, or the rapid redeployment one, in case you really need to move. Just a thought.

are you reading a different faq or rulebook than me?

the faq only changed "courage of the lion" (the 3d6 leadership one) to be dark angel only....


Finally, as stated, going 50 is overkill and puts you into ignore territory way to badly. You need more units than one big bad one.

My experience with conscripts is similar to the above - durable to an extent but lacking in firepower. Honestly though I don't know if an actual platoon-blob would be much better for what you pay. A couple of BS3 weapons does not a threat make.

KommissarKarl wrote:
My experience with conscripts is similar to the above - durable to an extent but lacking in firepower. Honestly though I don't know if an actual platoon-blob would be much better for what you pay. A couple of BS3 weapons does not a threat make.

I agree! thats why I am adding heavy weapons in the infantry platoons and maybe special weapons to give them some bite!

Theorius wrote:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

Theorius wrote:

why dont you read it correctly? It says "warlord and unit" and in 7th battle brothers can use warlord traits......

Unfortunately no. This is the only Warlord trait in the DA codex that actually specifies 'Dark Angels unit he joins' rather then 'The Warlord and any unit he joins'. It falls down dead, no FNP for guard.

If you're going to do the blob, go all in. 50 men. Possibly choose either the Furious Charge trait, or the rapid redeployment one, in case you really need to move. Just a thought.

are you reading a different faq or rulebook than me?

the faq only changed "courage of the lion" (the 3d6 leadership one) to be dark angel only....


Finally, as stated, going 50 is overkill and puts you into ignore territory way to badly. You need more units than one big bad one.

50 is a good feth you number, although, yeah, it may be a little too large. 50 is the number to push upfield with, but for objective camping less is fine.

I'm reading my DA codex, which states that only 'Dark Angels units'. Apologies if you have a more up-to-date source of information then me.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

Theorius wrote:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

Theorius wrote:

why dont you read it correctly? It says "warlord and unit" and in 7th battle brothers can use warlord traits......

Unfortunately no. This is the only Warlord trait in the DA codex that actually specifies 'Dark Angels unit he joins' rather then 'The Warlord and any unit he joins'. It falls down dead, no FNP for guard.

If you're going to do the blob, go all in. 50 men. Possibly choose either the Furious Charge trait, or the rapid redeployment one, in case you really need to move. Just a thought.

are you reading a different faq or rulebook than me?

the faq only changed "courage of the lion" (the 3d6 leadership one) to be dark angel only....


Finally, as stated, going 50 is overkill and puts you into ignore territory way to badly. You need more units than one big bad one.

50 is a good feth you number, although, yeah, it may be a little too large. 50 is the number to push upfield with, but for objective camping less is fine.

I'm reading my DA codex, which states that only 'Dark Angels units'. Apologies if you have a more up-to-date source of information then me.

good grief I was reading the chart in the back of the book ASSUMING!! it ha the same verbiage as the one on page 28....and you are correct the one on page 28 says dark angels

Theorius wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
In all honesty, if you just want objective holders that can stick around, Azreal blobs are not the best choice. They can work as aggressive units, but for pure scoring with the guard, the best option is:

30 Conscripts: 90
Priest: 25

115 points for a Fearless 32 wounds, some degree of firepower/CC if you need it as a last resort, and they aren't going anywhere until they're killed to a man. You can take 2 for about the same cost as Azreal, let alone the squad he's buffing, and they'll do the job just as well.

The thing with the Az-blob is simply that you're sinking a lot of points into buffing a unit, but the cost per-model gets less the larger the squad. If you're just taking 20 guys, it works out at around 10 points a model, as the combat ability, good weapons and armour and Warlord Trait Azreal pays for aren't really getting used. That's nowhere near a good return on investment; take it on 40 guys and it's around 5ppm, which is far more reasonable, doubling their survivability for double the cost, making them as hard to kill as 80 guys.

I'm not saying don't use it, but if you do take one, it's best to go all-in.

This may be true but it is also unthreatening, I would ignore it and spending that many points on one objetive grabber it needs to be dangerous.

Really, the strength of it comes from being unthreatening. It sits on an objective, and with any luck, the opponent ignores it and you get the VP. The conscript/Priest unit is an objective holder, not an objective grabber. It sits on the back line on an objective, never runs, gets ignored and scores you points.

When looking at Guard, trying to make a unit that is both Defensive and Threatening is something of a cross-purpose. Conscripts can hold an objective but can't take one, Vets have the firepower to take one but not the durability to hold it. Platoons can fill a middle ground, but need numbers to do so.

I see what you're going for with Azreal and the priests, but as I say, to get the most from that you need to go all-in, otherwise it's just a wasted investment, you'repaying twice as much per model for the upgrade. At the end of the day, 20 Guardsmen with a 4++ is as hard to kill as 40 Guardsmen without it, but the 40 gives you twice as many slots for the weapons you'll need to be a threat. On the other hand, 40 with a 4++ is as hard to kill as 80 without, and as 80 is a unit that can't exist, the investment becomes worth it, and you can pack in enough weapons to be a threat.

Trying to do small buffed blobs just doesn't give a good enough return on investment to be worth it.

Azrael blob is best in assault.

50 guyz, 20-30 krak nades, 2-3 axes, a couple of meltas or meltabombz if you're afraid of av13 walkers, priest and probably vox if you think you can keep your pcs alive.

If you want reasonable-priced troop pointholders, you can have vets with cammo cloaks and sniper rifles - those are super-cheap. Probably an AC.
Or just a 20-30 strong blob with priest or comissar - they're more reliable but also more pricy.