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My brother dug up something kind of interesting tonight in the new 7E book. We were looking up the Gunslinger rule, and noticed that it said "A model with two pistols can fire both in the Shooting phase. This follows the normal rules for shooting." Based on this wording, I immediately was wondering whether they could overwatch with both pistols. But, nothing in the overwatch section actually gave permission for a model to fire as if it were the shooting phase.

Monstrous Creatures are worded the same way. "Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase." I know I've always played it that MC's fire both of their weapons during overwatch. But could be it be that you can only ever fire a single weapon now during overwatch - as you are only given permission to fire two weapons during the Shooting phase only?

Gonna go crack open the 6E book and see what it said...

6E said the same thing. This is a debate which was had multiple times since the release of the Tau Codex in 6E.

The strict RAW is that all models may fire all weapons in the movement phase and assault phase if allowed to fire - as models are only restricted to firing one weapon in the shooting phase (you'll find that in the Weapons section, don't have a page number). Yes, that means a Marine can fire Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND grenades in overwatch if he really wants.

Anything after that is up to interpretation. One faction says that the overwatch rules phrase 'like a normal shooting attack' intends that all shooting phase rules apply, including abilities which only work in the shooting phase. The other faction says that because the ability says it only works in the shooting phase, it only works in the shooting phase.

Different tournaments have ruled on this in different ways. NOVA is in the 'yes, they can fire twice' camp; BAO is in the 'no' camp.

I did find this which is pretty clear. Page 31 - which models can fire. " Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles and monstrous creatures, can fire two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase."

It is interesting to note that they use the language 'phase' here in a neutral way, allowing for it to apply to all phases of the game.


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Trasvi wrote:

The strict RAW is that all models may fire all weapons in the movement phase and assault phase if allowed to fire - as models are only restricted to firing one weapon in the shooting phase (you'll find that in the Weapons section, don't have a page number). Yes, that means a Marine can fire Bolter, Bolt Pistol AND grenades in overwatch if he really wants.

So this is pretty clear not true in 7E.

rollawaythestone wrote:
But, nothing in the overwatch section actually gave permission for a model to fire as if it were the shooting phase.

Are you sure about that?

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (The Shooting Phase chapter, Resolve Overwatch section, 3rd graph, 1st sentence).

Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack. Can a model with two pistols and gunslinger shoot them both when making a normal shooting attack?

It is a very interesting change to that Rule, as that restriction is for all Phases now.
Made all the more confusion by having Monstrous Creatures as an example of something which can shoot more then once per Phase....

Why is it confusing. The term normal shooting attack pretty much covers it. If they can normally fire two weapons, then they can do so in Overwatch.

CRISIS SUITS BABY!!!!!! WOOT WOOT!!!!!!! Oh wait nvm. I keep forgetting how strict the wording on multitracker is :(.


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Also, the counterfire defense system lets overwatch be resolved at BS2 rather than snapshots. While this isn't very relevant to most models, the riptide has an s8-9 ap2 pie plate that would like to have a word with your terminators.

Fragile,
I've dissected this problem in depth before, it became even more of a mess afterwards. While I agree that the intent was for it to be treated with all of the Rules for a normal shooting attack, even those which have the 'shooting phase' limitations, there have been people whom argued with me in the past. The reason why I personally hate the way they worded Overwatch was because they included the phase 'and so on,' which should never be included in a Rule book because it is vague terminology. Some people have taken 'and so on' to mean just the default shooting sequence and nothing more, as the Rules mentioned prior to 'and so on' are all related to the sequence. Under such an interpretation, Rules which are triggered based on Phase can not come into effect because no permission exists to evoke them outside of the phase and they do not exist as part of the normal shooting sequence. Because of how vague the terminology used has been, it is very difficult to make an argument that is 'Written.'

The confusion part is using a Monstrous Creature as an example within that 'One per Phase' Rule, as the Rule for Monstrous Creatures mentions no other Phases then the Shooting Phase. This does creates a conflict, one Rule doesn't limit to any particular phase while the other only mentions the Shooting Phase in a restrictive manor. Both Rules being just as specific as they mention Monstrous Creatures prevents us from truly being able to state which one is more specific, all it can be used for is to try and prove intent and that intent is not the most clear in this situation. It is only the tip of the iceberg as well, because Over-watch is not the only shooting attack that occurs outside of the Shooting Phase...

Let's expand it to a three Rule interaction: interceptor on all weapons - Monstrous Creature - One weapon per Phase:
How many weapons can it fire during the Movement Phase?


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Ventiscogreen:
The Riptide can not fire the pie-plate during Overwatch, for it is still being fired as a Snap-Shot even at a higher Ballistic Score.

"Counterfire Defence System: Overwatch at BS 2."
That is bs 2, not snapshots, not improved snapshots, just BS 2.

Ventiscogreen,
They have permission to carry out Overwatch with a Ballistic Score of 2 instead of Ballistic Score 1, but where in those instructions does it state that they can ignore the rest of Overwatchs requirements?
The final sentence literally forbids weapons which can not Snap Shot from firing, as the sentence before it requires all Overwatch shots to be Snap Shots.

I would also recommend reviewing the Rules for Snap Shots themselves, they take into account that some Special Rule will only modify Overwach related Snap-Shots.

I would say YES.

Pistols can snap shoot (unless a salvo weapon etc) and the model is allowed to fire two weapons. Done.

Ok, the overwatch wording wouldn't have affected it, but the snapshot rules do. No overwatch pie plate for the riptide.

JinxDragon wrote:
Fragile,
I've dissected this problem in depth before, it became even more of a mess afterwards. While I agree that the intent was for it to be treated with all of the Rules for a normal shooting attack, even those which have the 'shooting phase' limitations, there have been people whom argued with me in the past. The reason why I personally hate the way they worded Overwatch was because they included the phase 'and so on,' which should never be included in a Rule book because it is vague terminology. Some people have taken 'and so on' to mean just the default shooting sequence and nothing more, as the Rules mentioned prior to 'and so on' are all related to the sequence. Under such an interpretation, Rules which are triggered based on Phase can not come into effect because no permission exists to evoke them outside of the phase and they do not exist as part of the normal shooting sequence. Because of how vague the terminology used has been, it is very difficult to make an argument that is 'Written.'

The confusion part is using a Monstrous Creature as an example within that 'One per Phase' Rule, as the Rule for Monstrous Creatures mentions no other Phases then the Shooting Phase. This does creates a conflict, one Rule doesn't limit to any particular phase while the other only mentions the Shooting Phase in a restrictive manor. Both Rules being just as specific as they mention Monstrous Creatures prevents us from truly being able to state which one is more specific, all it can be used for is to try and prove intent and that intent is not the most clear in this situation. It is only the tip of the iceberg as well, because Over-watch is not the only shooting attack that occurs outside of the Shooting Phase...

Let's expand it to a three Rule interaction: interceptor on all weapons - Monstrous Creature - One weapon per Phase:
How many weapons can it fire during the Movement Phase?


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Ventiscogreen:
The Riptide can not fire the pie-plate during Overwatch, for it is still being fired as a Snap-Shot even at a higher Ballistic Score.

Jinx, I have a Flyrant (MC) with dual devourers. If I were to make a normal shooting attack, how many would I fire? ... and why?

As such an attack would be taking place in the Shooting Phase, where those Rules trigger, it is irrelevant to the question I put forth.
How many weapons can a Monstrous Creature fire during the Movement Phase?

JinxDragon wrote:
As such an attack would be taking place in the Shooting Phase, where those Rules trigger, it is irrelevant to the question I put forth.
How many weapons can a Monstrous Creature fire during the Movement Phase?

If it had some kind of rule that allowed the MC to shoot in the Movement phase it would shoot one weapon. I don't think there is a MC that can shoot in the Movement phase though.

JinxDragon wrote:
As such an attack would be taking place in the Shooting Phase, where those Rules trigger, it is irrelevant to the question I put forth.
How many weapons can a Monstrous Creature fire during the Movement Phase?

None, as there is no permission to shoot in the movement phase.

Within the context of my post please,
Within that situation the Monstrous Creature had multiple Weapons with Interceptor, granting permission to fire in the Movement Phase at a target that arrived from Reserves, so how many can it fire?