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What role do Space Marines fulfill that the Imperium's bountiful reserves of special forces (stormtroopers, scions, elysians etc) can't accomplish?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/483884.page

 Ashiraya wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/483884.page

Apologies, wasn't aware the thread already existed

It's from 2012, may not want to necro it, but it might contain the answer to your question.

Not necro-ing, but I still think the answers are insufficient. My opinion remains unchanged.

In my opinion, yes Space Marines are redundant and needlessly wasteful in terms of time, resources and logistics.

In short, it depends entirely on who you ask.

You will get one of the following answers:

1. It makes no sense, and it is a hole in the narrative.

2. The Imperium keeps them due to tradition and folly, despite their inefficiency.

3. The Marines are powerful enough to compensate for their cost and lack of numbers, being able to take on things that Guard simply can't face, not even when they are a hundred times as many. Such as Eldar dodging cascades of bullets or Daemons driving men insane with their mere presence.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
In my opinion, yes Space Marines are redundant and needlessly wasteful in terms of time, resources and logistics.

Well of course, but you hate most of the setting, so I doubt this is a topic in your interest anyway.

1) Force Concentration
2) Rapid Reaction
3) Self-sufficiency
4) Unmatched survivability in any environment
5) Unmatched brutality and, depending on specific Chapter, a reputation that can end wars before the first shot is fired.

Remember that, even to the IG, the #1 opponent is not some weird alien, but another human being, either from a recently-discovered non-Imperial world (yes, they still exist) or a world in rebellion.

In many cases, when rebelling worlds hear the Space Marines are coming (especially the Space Sharks or the Flesh Tearers), they give up right away.

They had a use during the Great Crusade, IMO they aren't as important anymore. But who's going to try and disband 1000 chapters of space marines?

 Psienesis wrote:
1) Force Concentration
2) Rapid Reaction
3) Self-sufficiency
4) Unmatched survivability in any environment
5) Unmatched brutality and, depending on specific Chapter, a reputation that can end wars before the first shot is fired.

Remember that, even to the IG, the #1 opponent is not some weird alien, but another human being, either from a recently-discovered non-Imperial world (yes, they still exist) or a world in rebellion.

In many cases, when rebelling worlds hear the Space Marines are coming (especially the Carcharodons or the Flesh Tearers), they give up right away.

1) Imperial Guard also have this. Literally, like, way better than Marines.
2) PDF or local Guard units are often mobilized quickly to deal with the threat of rebellion etc.
3) Self-sufficiency? So they make all their own boltguns, vehicles, power armour and ammo?
4) The Cadian system has an entire planet dedicated to training in hazardous environments IIRC.
5) Imperial Guard are pretty brutal last time I checked, ever read the entry on Commissars? Also, most Imperial Citizens have never seen or heard of a Space Marine, so I doubt that.

Astartes as a faction runs on their own premise. All factions in 40K do, but Marines (And 'Nids, as well) really require you to not only suspend that disbelief but actually bury it in order to unlock the faction's potential. They are cool, really cool. You should not try to dig too deep into it. Things in 40K tend to break if you do.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Astartes as a faction runs on their own premise. All factions in 40K do, but Marines (And 'Nids, as well) really require you to not only suspend that disbelief but actually bury it in order to unlock the faction's potential. They are cool, really cool. You should not try to dig too deep into it. Things in 40K tend to break if you do.

This.

40k has a loose relationship with reality to say the least.

A SM takes 32 years to be forged.

They would have learned to use cover and use most forms of battlefield devices such as the auspex as a scout, of course learn how to lay down concentrated volleys of fire as a devastator and learn the bloody encounters of close combat as an assault marine. Not to mention the grooming of their emotional capabilities such as mastering fear, feeling no remorse, ect. A tactical marine by nature is one of the galaxies most efficient and dangerous warriors, and they are used only in operations of desperate need. The IG in the end, will be mankinds ultimate heroes. They will carry the biggest burdens and handle the most hopeless scenarios and emerge victorious. The SM's are to serve as their elite support, the grand iron arm of doom.

"We do not exist to rule humanity, we exist to serve it." - Rogal Dorn

Thanks for giving me information about Space Marines and failing to answer the question...

Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

It would stop Chapters from abusing powers, but it would also put entire Chapters of supersoldiers at the whims of Inquisitors, who are often known to go completely mental.

Also, Inquisitors can requisition anything they want anyway, the only reason they don't is because it weakens their political hold within their own section if they don't get permission from the higher-ups, as displayed in the Siege of Vraks.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
1) Force Concentration
2) Rapid Reaction
3) Self-sufficiency
4) Unmatched survivability in any environment
5) Unmatched brutality and, depending on specific Chapter, a reputation that can end wars before the first shot is fired.

Remember that, even to the IG, the #1 opponent is not some weird alien, but another human being, either from a recently-discovered non-Imperial world (yes, they still exist) or a world in rebellion.

In many cases, when rebelling worlds hear the Space Marines are coming (especially the Carcharodons or the Flesh Tearers), they give up right away.

1) Imperial Guard also have this. Literally, like, way better than Marines.
2) PDF or local Guard units are often mobilized quickly to deal with the threat of rebellion etc.
3) Self-sufficiency? So they make all their own boltguns, vehicles, power armour and ammo?
4) The Cadian system has an entire planet dedicated to training in hazardous environments IIRC.
5) Imperial Guard are pretty brutal last time I checked, ever read the entry on Commissars? Also, most Imperial Citizens have never seen or heard of a Space Marine, so I doubt that.

1) No, they don't. Most IG Regiments are of a single type. Either they're Infantry, or they're Armor, or they're Drop Troops, or they're Heavy Infantry, etc. They require massive amounts of time and politicking to get all the Regiments needed to concentrate force on a single target... and then gotta get the IN involved to get there.

2) And when it's the Local Guard and PDF in rebellion? Gotta get someone from another planet to come do it, and that requires the IN, who may not be available for another four years local...

3) Yes. That is what the Chapter Fortress and the Chapter Serfs and Tech Marines and the Servitors and Master of the Forge and all that is for.

4) And when the local hazardous environment isn't what Cadia has? Then what does the IG do? They find another Regiment who *is* trained in that environment, and wait for them to arrive, because they're on the other side of the Galaxy at the moment, fighting a different war... and then we are back to the transport issues. Or, oh noes, the Regiment we needed was killed to a man by a particularly virulent strain of the clap on Eroticon VI while on shore leave. Guess we better train another Regiment.

5) Incorrect. Every Imperial Citizen has heard of Space Marines (they are the grandsons of the God-Emperor, after all, His Angels of Death), from the pulpits of the local Ecclesiarchy, but most of them have never seen one. And when they arrive? They are gods walking amongst mere mortals.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

It would stop Chapters from abusing powers, but it would also put entire Chapters of supersoldiers at the whims of Inquisitors, who are often known to go completely mental.

Also, Inquisitors can requisition anything they want anyway, the only reason they don't is because it weakens their political hold within their own section if they don't get permission from the higher-ups, as displayed in the Siege of Vraks.

Then why not allow space marines be able to be inquisitors?

But who cares about politics? Humanity is going to go extinct.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Thanks for giving me information about Space Marines and failing to answer the question...

SM's play a very small rule in retrospect of the IG. They are only the elite of mankind.

I do feel they are given to much attention all together. They only perform desperate operations.

So basically, SM's play a elite and limited role. Their resources are acceptable and their efficiently is extraordinary, given they are put to good use.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

It would stop Chapters from abusing powers, but it would also put entire Chapters of supersoldiers at the whims of Inquisitors, who are often known to go completely mental.

Also, Inquisitors can requisition anything they want anyway, the only reason they don't is because it weakens their political hold within their own section if they don't get permission from the higher-ups, as displayed in the Siege of Vraks.

Then why not allow space marines be able to be inquisitors?

Because they have Grey Knights for that. And, every Space Marine is his own mini-Inquisitor anyway.

I've never run a forum, or been a forum moderator, so there might be some practical issue I'm not aware of .......... But , given that caveat , I don't know why necro-ing a thread is bad ---especially when it is also considered bad to make new threads where threads already exist for that topic --- except the thread on that topic is ancient = neco-ing. * scratches head *

Anyway, I'm reminded of what has been said by the U.S. Marines themselves ; " The U.S. needs an army, it needs a navy, maybe it needs an air force independent of the army and navy air forces, but the U.S. has the U.S. Marines because it wants the U.S. Marine Corps. "
Personal sentiment does play a role in such things.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Thanks for giving me information about Space Marines and failing to answer the question...

SM's play a very small rule in retrospect of the IG. They are only the elite of mankind.

I do feel they are given to much attention all together. They only perform desperate operations.

So basically, SM's play a elite and limited role. Their resources are acceptable and their efficiently is extraordinary, given they are put to good use.

They currently are not played out to be. According to the fluff they are always fighting on the front lines.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

It would stop Chapters from abusing powers, but it would also put entire Chapters of supersoldiers at the whims of Inquisitors, who are often known to go completely mental.

Also, Inquisitors can requisition anything they want anyway, the only reason they don't is because it weakens their political hold within their own section if they don't get permission from the higher-ups, as displayed in the Siege of Vraks.

Then why not allow space marines be able to be inquisitors?

But who cares about politics? Humanity is going to go extinct.

You'll actually find they're breeding like rabbits.

[Source]?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

Not a bad idea actually. Then maybe with Inquisitors keeping an eye on them SM's will be allowed more recruits to better amplify their input of damage. (Because 1,000 warriors is ridiculous)

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

It would stop Chapters from abusing powers, but it would also put entire Chapters of supersoldiers at the whims of Inquisitors, who are often known to go completely mental.

Also, Inquisitors can requisition anything they want anyway, the only reason they don't is because it weakens their political hold within their own section if they don't get permission from the higher-ups, as displayed in the Siege of Vraks.

Then why not allow space marines be able to be inquisitors?

Because they have Grey Knights for that. And, every Space Marine is his own mini-Inquisitor anyway.

Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Thanks for giving me information about Space Marines and failing to answer the question...

SM's play a very small rule in retrospect of the IG. They are only the elite of mankind.

I do feel they are given to much attention all together. They only perform desperate operations.

So basically, SM's play a elite and limited role. Their resources are acceptable and their efficiently is extraordinary, given they are put to good use.

They currently are not played out to be. According to the fluff they are always fighting on the front lines.

Which is terrible narration of their nature. Terrible.

Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.

A lot, but not as many as Imperial Guard Regiments do.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes in a way space marines are useless. They would be better as a special forces units more than monastic warriors. Instead of being given so much power that they currently have they should be ruled by the inqusition (chiefly) the Ordo Xenos and Ordo Malleus. This way it would be easier to control certain chapters and stop them from abusing their powers.

It would stop Chapters from abusing powers, but it would also put entire Chapters of supersoldiers at the whims of Inquisitors, who are often known to go completely mental.

Also, Inquisitors can requisition anything they want anyway, the only reason they don't is because it weakens their political hold within their own section if they don't get permission from the higher-ups, as displayed in the Siege of Vraks.

Then why not allow space marines be able to be inquisitors?

But who cares about politics? Humanity is going to go extinct.

You'll actually find they're breeding like rabbits.

[Source]?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Time_of_Ending


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.

A lot, but not as many as Imperial Guard Regiments do.

True but I think it doesn't take too much prodding to get a guard regiment to turn. Especially because most are conscripted.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Thanks for giving me information about Space Marines and failing to answer the question...

SM's play a very small rule in retrospect of the IG. They are only the elite of mankind.

I do feel they are given to much attention all together. They only perform desperate operations.

So basically, SM's play a elite and limited role. Their resources are acceptable and their efficiently is extraordinary, given they are put to good use.

They currently are not played out to be. According to the fluff they are always fighting on the front lines.

Which is terrible narration of their nature. Terrible.

And you wonder why I quit 40k? the lore went from badasses going behind enemy lines fighting for the emperor in smart ways, to charging the enemy because why not?

 Psienesis wrote:

Yeah and how many space marine chapters go renegade again? They are probably causing more harm than good.

A lot, but not as many as Imperial Guard Regiments do.

To be honest it's usually singular marines or squads that go renegade. It is very rare that a chapter in its entirety turns.

Duplicate as noted--closing