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wow.

I just finished a 3 HOUR game of Nids vs Demons that we called at the demons turn 5 ( I didn't get my last turn as I was racking up kill points by taking out all of the summoned units popping up. ) and holy shoot. what the hell is up with that book?

They seem to cause so many delays in a game that really prevent it from running smoothly and will very quickly begin to extract all of the fun out of a good old fashion table brawl!

Does anyone else share this feeling? Vs or even playing with?
How would you change demons to help them not be such time burden?

Thanks guys!

Delays such as? The only thing that comes to mind is the warp storm table.

 curran12 wrote:
Delays such as? The only thing that comes to mind is the warp storm table.

really?

the : generating gifts, generating physic powers, an excessive amounts of warp charges to cast every power that there is to cast=extented physic phase, warp storm table, demonic instability test's = add/ remove additional models out of no where, do not slow the game down?

Time a a game where A + B face off.
Then time a game where A/B face off Demons.

run this several times through and I garuntee demon games all take longer.

I know that last one is a little petty and so can be ignored but my point stands.I am not hating on Demons as a whole, I think they're cool as heck and have a lot of fun units but christ they take a LONG time to play.

Even Treebeard would tire of playing a Demon army.

Treebeard would tire? Have an exalt!

To be fair about it any horde army takes longer than a small model count army. When I play Draigowing GKs or Imperial Knight armies I feel like nids players are slowing down the game to unreasonable levels. ie my turns take 10-15 min while theirs take 30+ min.

Usually these things are about how practiced the player is with the army. A very proficient player will play a daemon summoning army quickly while an inexperienced player will play even a single model daemon army and take forever.

 ansacs wrote:
To be fair about it any horde army takes longer than a small model count army. When I play Draigowing GKs or Imperial Knight armies I feel like nids players are slowing down the game to unreasonable levels. ie my turns take 10-15 min while theirs take 30+ min.

Usually these things are about how practiced the player is with the army. A very proficient player will play a daemon summoning army quickly while an inexperienced player will play even a single model daemon army and take forever.

The thing is we are both experienced players- we've been around since third edition! I play with nids and my turns last 5-10 minutes where demons turns seem to last 20-30. It's aweful!

Of course draigo wing lists are only gonna take a minute, theirs nothing too them haha

 Wilson wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Delays such as? The only thing that comes to mind is the warp storm table.

really?

the : generating gifts, generating physic powers, an excessive amounts of warp charges to cast every power that there is to cast=extented physic phase, warp storm table, demonic instability test's = add/ remove additional models out of no where, do not slow the game down?

Time a a game where A + B face off.
Then time a game where A/B face off Demons.

run this several times through and I garuntee demon games all take longer.

I know that last one is a little petty and so can be ignored but my point stands.I am not hating on Demons as a whole, I think they're cool as heck and have a lot of fun units but christ they take a LONG time to play.

Even Treebeard would tire of playing a Demon army.

Keep in mind their extended psyker phase basically takes over their almost non-exisistant shooting phase. Daemonic instabillity isn't that big of a thing either. It only does anything in CC when they lose the combat scenario. Daemon armies vary. A true ork greentide army probably would take significantly longer, particularly if playing against an army that actually has blasts/templates/large blasts. That said, on average you are correct that CD will generally take longer. Ignoring what everybody else does, they do have random equipment, a ton of psycher powers to roll (although really the claim of excessive warp charges isn't much. The only time it is blatant is whenever they deny your magic with spam. Without that, daemons actually cast less spells this edition which basically neuters quite a couple armies.). The warp storm table does make things take longer, particularly if its anything that isn't 7 or 11. All that said, whilst it likely makes the army take longer, it shouldn't be preposterously long. Unless its daemon summoning and your army isn't an alpha striker/slow army

 Wilson wrote:
The thing is we are both experienced players- we've been around since third edition! I play with nids and my turns last 5-10 minutes where demons turns seem to last 20-30. It's aweful!

Of course draigo wing lists are only gonna take a minute, theirs nothing too them haha

You cannot truthfully tell me that the other player is experienced with daemon lists using malefic daemonology or that their experience in 3, 4, and 5 editions has prepared them to quickly roll gifts and psychic powers. There is experience in general and experience with an army.

Draigowing is not actually an easy list to play well. It is an extremely tactical army and can take a long time to position correctly. An experienced player of this list however has an intuitive sense of how to position the deathstar and does not have to spend 20+ min tweaking how they place coteaz and the apothecary.

The comments about draigowing is to give some scale. Consider a khorne dog pile daemon list which only moves and charges and always takes axes of khorne vs a Tau fish of fury list which moves, shoots, jumps in the assault phase, and in general takes 3-4x the time that the daemon list does to play. A green tide will take longer to move than most daemon list do to play their entire turn. A nids tervigon spawn spam will take even longer to play and a daemon summoning spam takes comparable effort and time.

It's never taken me more than 15 minutes to perform my turn from movement phase to assault, as a Daemons player.

I loved Facing Demons. I thought they where pretty fun. Only played them once though.

They are one of only 2 armies I have never owned or played against (the other being Dark Eldar) and I really do look forward to one day facing them. They seem to have a dynamic that makes them completely different from any other army.

Daemons are a nightmare. They're quite overpowered and they do disrupt the game flow, with each of their phases lasting up to half an hour in some cases compared to the 5-10 minutes taken by most armies. All I can say is that Grey Knights is what you want, it'll speed the game up and remove the "My army's better than yours" look from their face, which is a fresh change considering the GK are supposed to be Daemon Hunters and now they are actually very good against Daemons is great. But against everything else they're a kind of average army now, which at least to me is a good thing.

 Wilson wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Delays such as? The only thing that comes to mind is the warp storm table.

really?

the : generating gifts, generating physic powers, an excessive amounts of warp charges to cast every power that there is to cast=extented physic phase, warp storm table, demonic instability test's = add/ remove additional models out of no where, do not slow the game down?

um, wow. You're basically having a moan because they have more activity than you in a phase. I'm sure daemon players love the opposition shooting phase, where they sit for 15 minutes removing models and yet their shooting is largely done with a single 2d6 roll on the warp storm, which you're also complaining about. Daemon instability? Just like your break tests. Generate psychic powers? Everyone does it. Add/Remove models? Anyone can reserve units and everyone takes casualties. The only thing on that list that is unique to daemons is generating gifts, which takes all of 2 minutes. THE HORROR!1!!one

They're a massive pain, especially the pre-game idiocy.

After 40 rolls on random tables and a full page of bookkeeping you can start thinking about deployment. And in the game itself, it's not just the Daemon player's turn that gets bloated. There's no way I can keep track of which unit has which psychic power and which gift or whatever, so I'm constantly asking where the dude with the grimoire is and who has invisibility and which witchfires the prince closest to me has and which divination power Fateweaver got and if the Horrors on the right had the summoning powers or if that was the other unit etc ad infinitum.

Ugh.

The hyperbole is strong with this thread.

Firstly, who on earth is going to say they hate playing with daemons?! If you don't like them, you'd have not started them, I guess there may be a few who played the last book who cannot stand the new one but continue to play, but I'm guessing not many.

Secondly, I find I only need a few rolls before each game, largely because I tend to build most of my choices around defaults, making a roll on the table redundant, but you'd have to be playing some level of points to need to make forty plus rolls prior to the game. Especially when you factor in that some (warlord, at least one Psyker in most cases) are universal.

Finally, I would concede that WYSIWYG poses a challenge for the daemons player, personally, I have, and will continue to, used a unique model, either from another manufacturer, elsewhere in the range, or a conversion, for every hero level character, MC etc.. I use, which at least helps tell the difference. I can imagine the annoyance of playing against three grey plastic GW DPs, but that fault really lies with the player, rather than the faction or rules.

I play Deamons (SLANNESH!) I have painted all my psykers hair a different color. I keep a notepad with blue Heard/red hearld/etc with a list of boons and spells. This aids my referencing and the opponents.

I can give you some simple guidlines to playing daemons quickly. It really helps if you put in a few minutes of prep before going to the game club.

I use this quick reference sheet from a very helpful dakkadakka member;
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/597998.page

I copy paste the psychic power tables I tend to use for my daemons, print them out, and clip them out (so they are small squares). When I roll up my psykers I mark the powers with a pencil/pen and keep the sheets near the model (usually with a corner under the model). This keeps all of the questions about what has what from becoming an issue.

I tend to use default gifts for the most part and have used the table enough that with a refresher before the game I will remember them. However you can also just print mini tables for the gifts and do the same as the psychic powers.

If you do this then you don't have to spend time looking stuff up and with the time you save on your non existent shooting phase you will usually take the same time as an average SM list.

If you play a daemon conjuration army then I highly recommend you generate most of the heralds you tend to use. I use battlescribe to do this personally. Otherwise try to not get fancy and stick with Tz herald with +1 ML or on disc, etc. rather than X Herald with random mixture of gifts. It also helps if you conjure units and models for specific purposes during the game; ie. going after a possession herald or conjuring a flickering fire herald to shoot a tank in the rear armour.

Yeah if you're not using tokens or some simple pieces of paper to lay down next to units to say which units have which spells , you're not doing it right. I just have some cards i've written the psychic powers and use poker chips for tokens and for knowing who's cast that turn.

Yep, I hate playing against Daemons. The pre-game rolling, the excessive amount of bookkeeping, all the power dice, it's just a headache to deal with and I always feel like I'm being cheated somehow.