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Quick question:
How does the Loth-Meister interact with the daemonology disciplines? I know that his profile says "choose from the following disciplines", but isn't that what all the codices said pre-FAQ?

Short version: Can/Can't he use daemonology in any manner?

Sevrin Loth is FW, right?

You'll need to ask FW. At least they'll answer questions.

I'm looking for more of a logical argument that I can use to a gaming group, as two of the group have asked FW and received different responses, so we're looking to figure out the RAW of the situation - help would be much appreciated.

Wait...FW gave different answers? That's...not like them.

Yeah we were all surprised too... mind = blown... :/

Right now the RAW is pretty clear that you choose from the disciplines listed. You could always house rule it otherwise though.

Ok, that's my stance, but I need to be able to counter this rule with logic, or the other side will win:
"Unless otherwise stated, all Psykers, other than those belonging to the Tyranids Faction, can generate powers from the Daemonology discipline."
The argument is that because Loth's profile does not "otherwise [state]", he can.
I then claimed that because it specifically states the disciplines, that is enough to be the "otherwise stated", but then he rightly pointed out that such a line of thought would render the tyranid line irrelevant?
I need to be able to counter that, so an explanation would be fantastic.

The outcome here will also determine if Fateweaver and Be'lakor can take Daemonology powers.

jy2, the problem with Fateweaver is not that he doesn't have access to Daemonology, it's that he rolls specific tables for each head.

If you read many of the 6th ed codicies it says which lores they can choose from. But 7th still allows them to pick from daemonology, so why not Loth? Why is it different for him? The only difference i see is that he chooses his powers rather than rolls for them. Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand your stance.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
:.
I then claimed that because it specifically states the disciplines, that is enough to be the "otherwise stated",...

It's not. Listing a bunch of other stuff you can use is not the same as stating that you can't use something.

Every psyker currently has access to Daemonology unless a rule specifically says that they don't.

Poly Ranger wrote:
If you read many of the 6th ed codicies it says which lores they can choose from. But 7th still allows them to pick from daemonology, so why not Loth? Why is it different for him? The only difference i see is that he chooses his powers rather than rolls for them. Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand your stance.

Actually the main difference is that every codex has been amended to allow Daemonology to be rolled on. FW has not released an update allowing their Psykers to roll on Daemonology.

 Happyjew wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
If you read many of the 6th ed codicies it says which lores they can choose from. But 7th still allows them to pick from daemonology, so why not Loth? Why is it different for him? The only difference i see is that he chooses his powers rather than rolls for them. Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand your stance.

Actually the main difference is that every codex has been amended to allow Daemonology to be rolled on. FW has not released an update allowing their Psykers to roll on Daemonology.

Fair point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about that though (just playing devils advocate), FW SM characters are selected in an army using C:SM, characters in a C:SM have been granted the ability to use demonology. So it could be argued that this passes onto the SM characters fron FW as they are selected using C:SM rules.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
If you read many of the 6th ed codicies it says which lores they can choose from. But 7th still allows them to pick from daemonology, so why not Loth? Why is it different for him? The only difference i see is that he chooses his powers rather than rolls for them. Not trying to be awkward, just trying to understand your stance.

Actually the main difference is that every codex has been amended to allow Daemonology to be rolled on. FW has not released an update allowing their Psykers to roll on Daemonology.

Fair point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking about that though (just playing devils advocate), FW SM characters are selected in an army using C:SM, characters in a C:SM have been granted the ability to use demonology. So it could be argued that this passes onto the SM characters fron FW as they are selected using C:SM rules.

The BRB gives you permission to take Daemonology. The codexs have been updated to reflect 7th edition rules making them more specific. Has your FW source been updated to 7th edition yet?

I would say the seventh edition errata for all casters applies for the rules of the game, not just non FW models.

Forgeworld is a subset of GW and follows said rules.

I don't see why loth wouldn't be able to take deamonology considering his profile does not say "can't take deamonology" which would be the otherwise mentioned.

If the listing of powers prevented you from taking deamonology any book pre seventh BRB wouldn't have access to it since it didn't exist yet.

 Awfeel wrote:
If the listing of powers prevented you from taking deamonology any book pre seventh BRB wouldn't have access to it since it didn't exist yet.

And you would be right except for one thing. Every codex that contains Psykers (except Nids) has been amended to add Daemonology to the lists of Disciplines Psykers can generate from.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Awfeel wrote:
If the listing of powers prevented you from taking deamonology any book pre seventh BRB wouldn't have access to it since it didn't exist yet.

And you would be right except for one thing. Every codex that contains Psykers (except Nids) has been amended to add Daemonology to the lists of Disciplines Psykers can generate from.

I also brought up this, but what is the purpose of the line about tyranids in the BRB, and GK and Daemons for that matter?

This needs an update

sevrin loth had a faq a long time ago he can only choose one of 3 psychic disiplines

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/badabupdate-v2.pdf

so that means no he cant take deamonology

Question: did you read the thread? We are all aware of that update, and it does not answer the question.

My point is that he can be taken by space marines no?

ALL space marine psykers have access to deamonology as of the SEVENTH edition FAQ no?

Where is there a problem there?

Forgeworld = GW

Space Marine models follow rules for the army.

The army allows psykers to take daemonology.


EDITS**

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Space_Marines_v1.0_May14.pdf

This exact publication, which is not even on the GW site, yet pertains to all models within that Faction or Army.

Note that the reference page on the (old 6th ed) FAQ is in reference to a BRB that is OUT OF PRINT. Therefore irrelevant.


"Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or ..."

So he follows the rules for Psykers for that army then? So he knows deamonology.

 Awfeel wrote:
My point is that he can be taken by space marines no?

ALL space marine psykers have access to deamonology as of the SEVENTH edition FAQ no?

Where is there a problem there?

Forgeworld = GW

Space Marine models follow rules for the army.

The army allows psykers to take daemonology.


EDITS**

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Space_Marines_v1.0_May14.pdf

This exact publication, which is not even on the GW site, yet pertains to all models within that Faction or Army.

Note that the reference page on the (old 6th ed) FAQ is in reference to a BRB that is OUT OF PRINT. Therefore irrelevant.


"Sevrin Loth is a HQ choice for a Codex: Space Marines army or ..."

So he follows the rules for Psykers for that army then? So he knows deamonology.

The section of the document is an amendment to a particular document. You can't imply an amendment to a separate document. Amendments and errata must be explicit. Loth's "Master Psyker" rules state that he may choose his powers from among 3 disciplines. Even if you believe he has access to Daemonology, he may not choose which powers he has. He would need to roll for them. Providing an exclusive list means the others are excluded and would be "stating otherwise". Expressio unius est exclusio alterius. Therefore, until FW speaks up, Loth can't take Daemonology.

Angelic wrote:
Providing an exclusive list means the others are excluded and would be "stating otherwise".

No, it doesn't. It just means that there are two different places that list things that he can take.

Loth's entry doesn't say he can't take Daemonology powers (which is what would be required to satisfy the 'stating otherwise' requirement) - it just lists powers that he can take. The rulebook also grants Daemonology.



Something is not 'stated otherwise' unless it is actually stated otherwise. Being left off a list is not stating otherwise.

Severin Loth originally had limits on what disciplines he had/has access to, and still does.

His rules specifically state he has access to certain disciplines, therefore he has access to only those disciplines until FW updates his rules.

Furthermore, the fact that he had access to only 3 disciplines when librarians had access to 4 shows RAI that he was not meant to gain access to disciplines beyond those three.

Loths entry of course doesn't say he cannot take daemonology powers, it did not exist when his rules were written.

generally librarians have access to Biomancy,Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and telepathy, that he doesn't have access to all 4 shows that he was meant to have access to just the three he has access to.

and the wording for the faq/ammendment is

Any model with the psyker special rule may generate powers from the Daemonology discipline in addition to the others listed in their army entry.

so even if he had access to Daemonology he would have to generate them and not pick, but his rules specifically tell you to pick from the three has listed and additionaly the Faq states that they generate from daemonology in addition to the others listed. Severin doesn't generate powers, so he cannot pick those. The faq also says that being able to generate powers from daemonology is in addition to being able to generate from the others in their list. Severin does not generate powers therefore he has no access to Daemonology. Even if he had access to standard librarian powers including the faq then you consider him having a specific rule allowing him to pick you have to include that his specific rule forces him to pick from those three disciplines at the exclusion of the other discplines(s) normal librarians have access to.

There are no rules allow for Severin to generate powers, so the faq would not even apply to him to give him access should he magically get access to the discipline should he magically be allowed to generate powers during a game.

short answer, Loth does not have daemonology.

blaktoof wrote:
Furthermore, the fact that he had access to only 3 disciplines when librarians had access to 4 shows RAI that he was not meant to gain access to disciplines beyond those three.

RAI means nothing in this case. Clearly he wasn't originally intended to have access to Daemonology, because Daemonology didn't exist when his rules were written.

However, the 7th ed rules granted Daemonology to all psykers except those with a specific exception. Loth has no such exception.

There are no rules allow for Severin to generate powers, so the faq would not even apply to him to give him access should he magically get access to the discipline should he magically be allowed to generate powers during a game.

Having the psyker rule allows him to generate powers from any allowed disciplines.

Generate is not the same as picking.

I can agree that under the psyker rule he is generally allowed to generate from 5 disciplines total.

But under his rules hes only allowed to pick from the three from a single discipline from his master psyker special rule and not the others as his rules state only those three.

the op wanted to know if he could pick from daemonology.

I didn't say it was.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
Question: did you read the thread? We are all aware of that update, and it does not answer the question.

I did read the tread and that file answers perfectly what sevrin can take in psychic powers. So unless people cant read a clear explained faq that he can only take biomancy, telepaty and telekenisis and nothing else he is quite a clear exception to the BL faq

odin

odin wrote:
So unless people cant read a clear explained faq that he can only take biomancy, telepaty and telekenisis and nothing else...

The word 'only' does not appear in his entry in the document you linked to.


It lists 3 disciplines that he can select powers from.

It does not state that he can not generate Daemonology powers.

He would therefore be covered by the general rule that says that psykers can generate Daemonology powers unless specified otherwise, because his entry doesn't specify otherwise.

it states what tables he can use and deamonology isnt listed so no he cannot use it

he is not a regular psycher that would fall under that ruleing

becouse your logic would also claim he could use divination and thus making the faq void

 Happyjew wrote:
jy2, the problem with Fateweaver is not that he doesn't have access to Daemonology, it's that he rolls specific tables for each head.

It is similar for be'lakor, it never states he is able to generate any powers. He just knows powers.