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I’m not going to argue that Grey Knights are under powered as a whole, rather that with the changes into 7th, there are a few units who are no longer worth their points, making them non-viable choices for a competitive match, or at least over-priced. Here are my proposed fixes:

Grand Master Mordrak: I think he needs either the It Will Not Die special rule or generate a Ghost Knight automatically every time he takes a wound.

Brother-Captain: Brother Captains only save you 25 points over the Grand Master, and Grand Strategy is worth more than that. Increasing the cost of the Grand Master would make it unplayable, so the Brother-Captain needs his point cost lowered. 125 points would be a fair price for the Brother-Captain

Brother Captain Stern: He has the same problem as the generic Brother-Captains in that he is too overpriced for what he does. The Strands of Fate are not worth 50 points, expecially since they give your opponent a free reroll to use any time, for every time you use the power to re-roll one of your dice. This could be fixed if he were 175pts, and the Strands of Fate didn’t give the opponent a re-roll.

Castellan Crowe: Being a lone model makes him a liability, a tax on taking Purifiers at troops. And in 7th Edition he lost his ability to kill an opponent after his own death, and he still buffs any unit that assaults him. But he’d easily be worth the 150 points if he could deep strike without scatter and assault on the same turn instead of shooting. He wouldn’t be a danger to vehicles, and any unit he gets into close combat with outnumbers him (their #/1). And he is still only 2 wounds, so they have a fair shot at killing him, but this way he doesn’t feel wasted.

Brotherhood Champion: He’s now just a Justicar with an Iron Halo, WS7, and some over-complicated rules regarding the number of hits he gets in close combat. It could be fixed by making him 25pts cheaper, or by giving him a second wound.

Pugation Squads: Need ignores cover for all their weapons (even if it’s a psychic power to do so), since they can no longer ignore line of sight.


Then there are a few changes that would just make them better and would be worth the few extra points

Purifiers: Should have Deep Strike. It would give them another viable means of getting into combat other than cruising forward in a Rhino, or trying to march through a gauntlet of death.

Paladins: Should have access to Storm Shields, even if it meant giving up their Storm Bolters.

The Vindicare Assassin should have a 48” range. Why can a generic Marine with a Missile Launcher out-shoot him for distance?

Terminators: Should have access to Storm Shields.

An HQ to make Interceptor Squads troops would be perfect for an assault army. It wouldn’t even be overpowered because now everything is scoring, and Unbound lists are allowed.

Agree with most of this, except a single one of your suggestions which seems like you haven't though ti out entirely. The design team didn't forget to give you storm shields, it on purpose and with good reason. That reason is Nemesis Force Swords, A Paladin in combat with a Storm Shield and N.F.S will have a 2+ Invul with 2 W. That is ridiculously broken, and should not be in game. Apart from that good job.

Yes, GK don't need SS so long as their Nemesis swords stay the same.

Some of my own suggestions:

Nemesis Force Swords should give a model a 6++ if they don't have a ++ save already. It would give just a little but more survivability.

Draigo: If his Titansword remains AP3 (which I doubt it will but this is GW after all) they he needs a BIG points reduction. AP3 means he just can't go toe to toe with the other heavy hitters in 40k.

Crowe needs to be an IC, period.

Psycannon's needs to be salvo 2/4 with a 36" range. It really sucks that GK's only form of long range fire is the Psydread or a vanilla LR. And speaking of the Psydread.

Psybolt bolt ammo needs a nerf, BAD. +1 S on weapons for only 5 pts on a dread is ridiculously OP. For units like Termies and GKSS, I'd prefer that the cost be per model, not a flat cost, that way it could be cheaper if you're only taking a 5 man unit.

What relics/warlord traits will we get I wonder.

Curious if we will get our own psychic powers or if we will just stick to sanctic (I am okay with sanctic)

Also curious to what they will replace the inquisition with.

I like the above suggestions. I really think the codex doesn't need an overhaul, just some slight adjustments to keep up with the current game.

Thanks for the Feedback.

I think the Brotherhood Banner should be a Nemesis Force Weapon with the Power Lance profile to make up for no longer automatically passing the test to activate Force Weapons.

What I was thinking for Storm Shields was something along the lines of:
"Any model that has replaced his Nemesis Force Sword with another weapon, may choose to replace his Storm Bolter with a Storm Shield..." I'd let them take Storm Shields for the same cost as vanilla Marines get them.

I agree with Ferrum_Sanguinis on the Psycannons. That's how they used to be, and I expect that is what they'll be again when we get a new codex.

Well, given that the other closest equivalent, the Noise Marine sonic blaster, was swapped to a Salvo weapon, I wouldn't be surprised by this.

It gives 'firing line' units a fighting chance without needing to spend a turn or two advancing out of cover into enemy fire.

I'm not sure about Draigo. Yes, he needs something, but either make the Titansword AP2 OR (my preferred option) make it a Nemesis Force Sword like every other damn sword in the Grey Knight's armoury.

Yes, super-beatstick-character, you have a 2+ save. But so do I.

I imagine the nemesis force weapons will pick up their stock weapon types (sword/halberd/staff) with force, daemonbane and one or two other rules. Which makes a big change for halberd units, because something modeled as a halberd by default counts as an axe, making I6 S4 AP3 units instead I1 S5 AP2.

Crowe certainly needs something. Making him an independent character is fine - provided his 'bad stuff happens' rule (whatever it ends up being ) applies to the squad he joins as well.

My one disagreement: Stern's rule should keep a downside. Strands of Fate is narratively supposed to be a bad thing - it's there to represent the fact that a Lord Of Change from Tzeench's inner court actively wants you dead. Feel free to change the cost of the unit, or improve the upside you get in return, but "random good fortune for the enemy" is the whole point of the rule.

I could see the Assassins being taken out of the Grey knights and turned in to data slates, However i think the combinations people would make with that would just be ridicules.

Instead of a price decrease I would be fine with normal troops having psybolt ammo standard on them. (Strikes and Termy squads that is)

You are basically paying 2 points a model at 10-man squads, and seeing how points decreases have been it COULD happen.

Though this could all be wishful thinking on my part.

Great Discussion:

So the proposed amendments we agree on are:

Brother Captain Stern needs a price decrease because he isn't as good as a Grand Master, but he costs more. Strands of Fate help the opponent more than the controlling player.

Brother Captains need a price decrease because they are only 25 points cheaper than a Grand Master, and the Grand Master's "Grand Strategy" special rule is worth more than that. Increasing the Grand Master's price is out of the question, so Brother Captains need to be cheaper.

Brotherhood Champions need an extra Wound and a point decrease.

Purifiers need the ability to Deep Strike. Right now they have to hop in cans or hoof it across the death zone.

Purgation Squads need the ability to Ignore Cover on all of their weapons since they no longer ignore Line of Sight. This could be balanced by making it a Psychic power to add that element of risk into casting it.

The Vindicare Assassin is supposed to be the best Sniper in the galaxy, so he needs a 48" range. It doesn't do to have generic guardsmen out-shooting him.


And here are other ideas I think would be good.

The discussion on Lord Kaldor Draigo was that the Titansword should either be AP2, or grant Lord Kaldor Draigo a 2++ Invulnerable save in close combat. I would say he should definitely get the 2++, and either AP2, or the "It Will Not Die" special rule. He is one of the most expensive HQs in the game after all.

Grand Master Mordrak should generate a new Ghost Knight in his unit automatically every time he takes a wound, and he should also have a summoning power that brings in new units of Ghost Knights, the same way the Chaos Daemons can summon new units of Daemons. They'd only be 5-man squads, and be able to choose from the free upgrades (Halberd & Hammer) just before being placed on the table.

Castellan Crowe needs to be an Independent Character. But he and his Purifiers also need to be able to Deep Strike to give them a second viable means of getting into combat. I propose that Crowe has the "Deep Strike" special rule, and also confers it to all Purifiers in his detachment in addition to making them Troop Choices.

The Brotherhood Banner needs a point decrease as it only provides an extra attack to each model in the unit. I also believe that it needs to be a Nemesis Force Weapon. It could use the Power Lance profile with the extra Nemesis rules.

Power Swords need to confer a 6++ invulnerable save if the model doesn't already have one.

Psybolt Ammo needs to be per model, like Camo gear of Astra Militarum, or Space Marine Scouts. 2 points per model (5 points per weapon in the case of vehicles) would be plenty balanced. It raises the cost on select vehicles, and removes the necessity to always take 10-man units and combat squad them to be worth the cost of Psybolts.

The Nemesis Greatsword needs to be a piece of Wargear that does not replace a Nemesis Doomfist, and always confers the re-rolls on To-hit, To-wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

Price reduction on all of the units, especially the dreadknight teleporters. Teleporters should be no more than 40-pts.

I really hope the Halberd is still +2 Initiative

PapaSoul wrote:
I really hope the Halberd is still +2 Initiative

I suspect they will stay "unusual Force Weapons", and keep the same traits. However I suspect the Nemesis Fachions are ambiguously worded as to whether the +1 attack is the two weapon bonus, or if it is RAW and grants +1 attack in addition to the two weapon bonus.

But after looking at the Chaos Space Marine Codex, I'm convinced the biggest change Grey Knights need is a point cost reduction across the board, especially HQs.

PapaSoul wrote:
I really hope the Halberd is still +2 Initiative

If it still is, I'm betting it will only be on the first turn of the assault and not a permanent change.