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Hey all,

trying to work out which daemons arebest to summon for my Taudar list.



Looking for general opinions on units and also which would fit best with my list. mostly for close combat and objective holding.

None of them, you have far to few static warp charges. You have exactly 3 + D6 warp charges to try get off a 3 Warp Charge power, which needs at lest 6 Dice to even be attempted with a good degree of success. I'd say your leaving to much to chance if you throw ALL your dice to get summoning off, then you are all but assured of getting peril'ed and since you threw all your Dice the Ghost Helm won't save you. Maybe instead roll everything on telepathy, all the powers are useful and you have a better chance of getting invisibility off then summoning.

Just my £0.02

I was planning to throw all but 1 dice each round, so thats a minimum of 3 (granted 3 dice have a very very low chance but anything 5 and up is decent), if i can get the first one off i was going to summon some horrors which will give an extra warp charge and make it easier in the second round. The list is solid without daemons, its just for some extra bodies which I think is worth taking the risk on (very little risk with ghost helm). adding a second farsser is an option once i have play tested the list a bit.

Depends on the situation. Generally pinkies with another roll on daemonology can be good. Then you can have those pinkies pump something out, like say, sacrifice themselve sto become a greater daemon.

Other than that, it is situational. Daemonettes have been a nice bonus unit for me. Mid game my daemons have assaults going on, and the enemy is pressed for what to shoot at, so the nettes usually get into position and charge next turn, or draw fire away from other targets.

PBs have also been solid for objectives.

Do summoned daemons get to roll on the demonic table even after the game has started. IO thought since they were summoned they only got the basic power they came with?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Depends on the situation. Generally pinkies with another roll on daemonology can be good. Then you can have those pinkies pump something out, like say, sacrifice themselve sto become a greater daemon.

Other than that, it is situational. Daemonettes have been a nice bonus unit for me. Mid game my daemons have assaults going on, and the enemy is pressed for what to shoot at, so the nettes usually get into position and charge next turn, or draw fire away from other targets.

PBs have also been solid for objectives.

That's exactly my plan too. An extra distraction with some CC capabilities.

They get to roll for powers.

That said your odds are really low, so unless you cannot think of a better use for your farseer (or eldar HQ in general)

Odds wise if you are leaving 1 charge aside for your helm, your range is 3D6 to 8D6 for casting (average is 5/6D6)

SO your odds

3D6 = 12.5%
4d6= 31.25%
5D6 = 50%
6D6 = 65.63%
7D6 = 77.34%
8D6 = 85.55%.

Which means on average you are casting about 57% of the time, Not counting opponents chance to deny (if you face a psyker heavy army you get nothing off most times).

So that means if you cast every turn you should get it off 2-3 times. But are very subject to bad dice.

You immediately to generate a psychic power(s), so Horrors get 1 roll on a chart of your choice, plus their Tzeentch primaris from Chaos Psychic Focus.

"If the new unit is a Psyker, generate its psychic power(s) as soon as the conjuration is manifested; the new unit cannot attempt to manifest conjuration powers on the same turn it was itself conjured. If the new unit has any random powers/abilities that would normally need to be generated before the start of the game, generate them at the same time. Unless otherwise noted, conjured units are scoring units."

So horrors are good as you get a warp charge, plus a chance to get Sacrifice, which imo is the best power from Malefic (as you can easily summon lvl 2 Heralds who generate two further warp charges and gain more rolls on Malefic) - It takes some rounds to build up, but you can get a nice little factory going.

I'm curious in general, which units are considered best for summoning. I have a daemon army and has some summoning powers available 2 level 3 is what I was using for Malefic. I have another lvl 3 with tzeentch for some anti tank/horde shooting. I keep looking at divination, but it just isn't what it used to be. Only 1-2 powers are that useful, I'd rather have two Malefic castors.

My main concern is how to do any damage with my army since I have little to know shooting, limited damage psychic spells, and unless I run belakor, I have units that die to lasgun fire. It's hard to run daemons without luck or some named characters to help out

Are pink horrors worth it? A herald of TZ generates more warp points if you give him the lvl2 upgrade and that only costs one warp charge. I could see spawning a pink horror unit and a lvl2 herald to go into it, then you'd have 3 rolls on Malefic if you wanted to try to get a Bloodthirster ( the slowest to die and biggest puncher of the big guys). Blood letters would be alright if you were playing marines and could get them close enough they didn't get shot to death before they can charge (tough I know)
Hounds are pretty good, but there are only 5 of them. Plaguebearers would be okay if you could spawn them next to aobjective or an immobilized vehicle that still has hull points you need to strip. The other units ar in such small numbers, I'm not sure they are with summoning. They would just die. I'm a little worried about taking the portaglyph for the same reason, except it won me my last game I played with daemons

Im leaning towards a mix tbh. It seems very situational. Hounds for fast cc. Plaguebarers for objectives. I cant decide between seekers amd daemonettes. Numbers or speed?

 Messy0 wrote:
Im leaning towards a mix tbh. It seems very situational. Hounds for fast cc. Plaguebarers for objectives. I cant decide between seekers amd daemonettes. Numbers or speed?

Seekers for when you need to contest that far away objective, nettes for when you want some CC or a nearby objective. Here is my reasoning.

Nettes = 10 wounds with 20 attacks base, 30 on the charge.
Seekers = 5 wounds with 15 attacks base, 20 on the charge.

attack per wound, nettes are better, all their other stats are the same. Seekers are just faster, have to take dangerous terrain tests, and (I think) get hammer of wrath) Your nettes have a better chance of living long enough to get where they are going, seekers only have 6" on them.
When you roll for spells, don't pass up on incursion. That will give you plague drones and screamers, which are both very awesome units to have pop up mid game. Both are fast, durable, and can mess up a unit. Fiends and bloodcrushers can be nice, but they are more situational. You wont see my buying any for the odd chance I summon some.

I think ill just be sticking on the primaris. I dont want to buy modles for just a 1in6 chance of using it.

Daemonnettes unless you are specifically bringing in stuff in the backfield, then plague bearers.

For your situation though, none. Now this is just my group's reading, but Daemon are come the apocalypse for eldar, so you can't deploy within 12 inches. Summoning has a 6 in range. We are saying if you don't end up summoning far enough away you don't get your daemons.

Also, from a tactics POV, still none. There are so many better options than summoning for eldar. Just don't waste your time.

Dessorag, I am not 100% on this, but I don't think deep striking is the same as deploying. However one eye open will come into effect in later turns. I agree with your that the risk/reward is not worth it to summon outside of daemon armies. perils on any doubles on a WC3 is really risky.

Deepstriking is not the same as deploying. It counts as movement so as long as I don't scatter within 1" its fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Dessorag, I am not 100% on this, but I don't think deep striking is the same as deploying. However one eye open will come into effect in later turns. I agree with your that the risk/reward is not worth it to summon outside of daemon armies. perils on any doubles on a WC3 is really risky.

How can something that cost 0 points not be worth it. Its free units whether I get it or not. The only cost is the opportunity cost of using other powers

You really want Sacrifice.
1 warp charge cost, and you make a herald of nurgle with the portaglyph. Turn two you pop open the glyph and try to bring out more free daemons.
Just keep a unit of guardians near by to volunteer for "Promotion" to herald.

Outside of that, I'd go with slaanesh, I would go with Daemonettes, Seekers or Screamers. All have enough speed to do something, and they all give taudar a much needed close combat punch.

 Messy0 wrote:
Deepstriking is not the same as deploying. It counts as movement so as long as I don't scatter within 1" its fine


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Dessorag, I am not 100% on this, but I don't think deep striking is the same as deploying. However one eye open will come into effect in later turns. I agree with your that the risk/reward is not worth it to summon outside of daemon armies. perils on any doubles on a WC3 is really risky.

How can something that cost 0 points not be worth it. Its free units whether I get it or not. The only cost is the opportunity cost of using other powers

Its not 0 points, it costs the price of units to make 7 WCs. Especially since those unit don't do anything else you basically start at a negative and have to use summoning to make back the cost.

And the farseer is 100 points, who also gives you 3 dice to counter with, and a very nice deny the witch should anyone foolishly target him/his unit.
Given that daemon troops are 90-100 points, and the farseer is 100, it's not a bad trade off.
Yes, you do start in the hole. But it's a small hole.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
And the farseer is 100 points, who also gives you 3 dice to counter with, and a very nice deny the witch should anyone foolishly target him/his unit.
Given that daemon troops are 90-100 points, and the farseer is 100, it's not a bad trade off.
Yes, you do start in the hole. But it's a small hole.

Totally agree with HawaiiMatt. The farseer on a jetbike also has 2 other powers to make it points back as well as being a scoring unit that can move 12" and turbo boost 36" after using it powers to grab objectives in on maelstrom or the last turn of Eternal war missions. The ability to summon is an awesome bonus but the unit is extremely useful in its own right. It''s also a mandatory HQ to unlock the ObSec Jetbikes and Warith Knight which are important to the list.

Also @gwarsh41, the Farseer has ghosthelm which allows you to ignore perils with 1 warp charge. So minimum you would have per turn to summon is 3WC or max 6WC without the risk of Perils. Its not the best odds but i personally think its worth the risk, especially if i don't get invisibility or there is no need for guide/prescience to be cast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
You really want Sacrifice.
1 warp charge cost, and you make a herald of nurgle with the portaglyph. Turn two you pop open the glyph and try to bring out more free daemons.
Just keep a unit of guardians near by to volunteer for "Promotion" to herald.

Outside of that, I'd go with slaanesh, I would go with Daemonettes, Seekers or Screamers. All have enough speed to do something, and they all give taudar a much needed close combat punch.

do you get a portaglyph as standard when you summon a herald?

 Messy0 wrote:
do you get a portaglyph as standard when you summon a herald?

No, they got 30 pts of upgrades they get to buy which lets you get a portalglyph as its 30 pts

I'm putting together a Seercouncil and I'd definitely consider running them with Summoning. The Spirit stone of Anath Lan reduces summoning to a WC 2 power. Which amusingly gives you a doubke advantage over CSM when it comes to summoning - WC cost and risk of perils (ghost helm). You even have a WC advantage over Daemons!

But I am stumped in trying to work out which daemons are best to summon. I might go hounds as they best go with the visual flavour of the list. Black/blue space dogs that I would play as flesh hounds rule wise...

Kholzerino wrote:
I'm putting together a Seercouncil and I'd definitely consider running them with Summoning. The Spirit stone of Anath Lan reduces summoning to a WC 2 power. Which amusingly gives you a doubke advantage over CSM when it comes to summoning - WC cost and risk of perils (ghost helm). You even have a WC advantage over Daemons!

But I am stumped in trying to work out which daemons are best to summon. I might go hounds as they best go with the visual flavour of the list. Black/blue space dogs that I would play as flesh hounds rule wise...

I'm not quite sure how this would work considering you'd be suffering from perils on any roll of Doubles if you are attempting to summon Daemons with a model or models without the Daemons URS. =/

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
I'm putting together a Seercouncil and I'd definitely consider running them with Summoning. The Spirit stone of Anath Lan reduces summoning to a WC 2 power. Which amusingly gives you a doubke advantage over CSM when it comes to summoning - WC cost and risk of perils (ghost helm). You even have a WC advantage over Daemons!

But I am stumped in trying to work out which daemons are best to summon. I might go hounds as they best go with the visual flavour of the list. Black/blue space dogs that I would play as flesh hounds rule wise...

I'm not quite sure how this would work considering you'd be suffering from perils on any roll of Doubles if you are attempting to summon Daemons with a model or models without the Daemons URS. =/

He just said how he would deal with it ^^. Ghosthelm, it nullifies the effects of perils for the cost of 1 WC.

 Messy0 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
I'm putting together a Seercouncil and I'd definitely consider running them with Summoning. The Spirit stone of Anath Lan reduces summoning to a WC 2 power. Which amusingly gives you a doubke advantage over CSM when it comes to summoning - WC cost and risk of perils (ghost helm). You even have a WC advantage over Daemons!

But I am stumped in trying to work out which daemons are best to summon. I might go hounds as they best go with the visual flavour of the list. Black/blue space dogs that I would play as flesh hounds rule wise...

I'm not quite sure how this would work considering you'd be suffering from perils on any roll of Doubles if you are attempting to summon Daemons with a model or models without the Daemons URS. =/

He just said how he would deal with it ^^. Ghosthelm, it nullifies the effects of perils for the cost of 1 WC.

The Ghosthelm only prevents the Wound suffered from the Perils effect though.. It doesn't stop the subsequent effects.

The farseer that I would run would be Jet bike, mantle of the laughing god, and spirit stone.
He's 170, and has crazy mobility. You've got a 2+ re-rollable cover, 3+ armor 4+ invul. You can trade the 4+ invul for reducing the warp charge cost by 1. You also get hit and run, so should you get stuck in combat, you've got a good shot at getting away.

Important to note that the ghost helm only prevents the wounds from perils, not perils itself.
A 1,2, or 3 on the table is the risky ones.
Ld test or be removed (#1), lose a random psychic power (#2), and lose D3 warp charge dice (#3), are all bad; even if you ignore the wound caused.
Even with that, I don't think it is all that bad. The worst is most likely #2, where you could lose the power to summon, and you've got a fairly good investment foiled right out of the gate.
The other important part is roll for starting your next turn within 12" of a Come the Apoc unit. It's another 1:6 chance that you do nothing.

Even with all that... summoned daemons can be worth it.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The farseer that I would run would be Jet bike, mantle of the laughing god, and spirit stone.
He's 170, and has crazy mobility. You've got a 2+ re-rollable cover, 3+ armor 4+ invul. You can trade the 4+ invul for reducing the warp charge cost by 1. You also get hit and run, so should you get stuck in combat, you've got a good shot at getting away.

Important to note that the ghost helm only prevents the wounds from perils, not perils itself.
A 1,2, or 3 on the table is the risky ones.
Ld test or be removed (#1), lose a random psychic power (#2), and lose D3 warp charge dice (#3), are all bad; even if you ignore the wound caused.
Even with that, I don't think it is all that bad. The worst is most likely #2, where you could lose the power to summon, and you've got a fairly good investment foiled right out of the gate.
The other important part is roll for starting your next turn within 12" of a Come the Apoc unit. It's another 1:6 chance that you do nothing.

Even with all that... summoned daemons can be worth it.

I agree with your part about the perils table. I hadnt thought about it like that.

For the 12" Come the Apoc, the farseer can turbo boost upto 36" in the shooting phase even if he manifested powers in the psychic phase which means you never should be within 12" at the start of your next turn. Even if you don't turbo you get a 2d6 in the assault phase and with some clever placement of the daemons you should be ok. Although the mantle is awesome its a huge investment. The spirit stone is cheap and makes a huge difference to the ability to summon.