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Hiya, I have seen someone mention having a Painboy as part of the Green Tide formation from WAAAGH Ghazghkull, to give the entire unit FNP.
I don't think I understand how formations work properly, because I thought the formation had to be exactly what is listed in the codex/supplement, and the green tide just says 1 Warboss, 10 units of boyz.
So how can a Painboy be added?

Or is the formation used as part of the standard supplement detachment FOC? (The Great WAAAGH detachment in this case).

Sorry if this is a dumb question, just a bit confused. Thanks in advance,

As I understand it, and I could be wrong, but you need the Painboy from a different selection. The 10 mobs of Boyz form one unit, and the Painboy should still be able to join it. So basically a CAD of 1 HQ, 2 Troops is needed for the Painboy to join the mega mob.

That does seem to be the case, as I read into it.
Not played much of 7th, so the whole CAD, formation stuff is a bit puzzling to me.
So as I understand it, if I take 1 Painboy, 2 troops and then the Green Tide formation, I can add the Painboy to the Greentide, which will give all 10 mobs, and the Warboss FNP, an he can take the big boss banner to make the whole army Fearless.
Interesting.

Yeah. Then have enough points left over for some other goodies depending on point level

Think of the greentide formation as a single super unit. Like any unit you can add an IC to the unit. How you get the extra IC's are a different story. You call always go Unbound, and do whatever you want.

If you want to stay Battle-forged, there's a few options:
*You can always add a CAD and add up to 2 HQ's for each CAD.
*You can also add HQ's from the Ghazghull supplement by adding a Ork Horde FoC.
*you can add another formation

Unless its in that formation's rules, an infantry formation in general does NOT combine into a single unit. (armored spearhead does for example)

green time "all of the units of boyz and the warboss form a single unit known as the green tide.

those 10 units of boyz become one unit of boyz, add in the pain boy for 300 boyz with FNP

 BoomWolf wrote:
Unless its in that formation's rules, an infantry formation in general does NOT combine into a single unit. (armored spearhead does for example)

As stated above Green Tide formation gives permission to combine 10 boy units, and 1 Warboss into a single unit.

You DEFINITELY want to add in a Painboy, so take at least 2 units of grots. On the other hand, you could take the FoC that's specific to the Ork codex and get a Painboy and two KFF Meks, which is what I do (when I want to be a TOTAL JERK and not let my opponent have a chance). Two KFFs, a Painboy and a Warboss with the Big Bosspole makes the green tide practically invincible. Then you take the three units of grots you had to take with the HQs and run them in front of the tide as a shield.

And that's just at a 1000 pt game, slightly more than that if you want to give the boyz shootas (AND YOU WANT TO GIVE THE BOYZ SHOOTAS)

This could be huge. If you could add in a Mech you could throw on a 4++ to boot. Like a buffed up IG blob on steroids.

Don't listen to the typical internet "wisdom" about Orks, you're going to see Green Tide lists win tourneys soon

 Multimoog wrote:
Don't listen to the typical internet "wisdom" about Orks, you're going to see Green Tide lists win tourneys soon

+1. The only real tricky part is being fast/efficient enough to manage 100+ models for a timed game. It can be done, but it will be difficult. On a related note, I really didn't understand why so many Ork players ranked the bullyboyz formation as better then greentide. Greentide has very few holes and is not just a competitive build for Orks, but is one of the most competitive builds in the entire game.

Just my thoughts, YMMV

mrfantastical wrote:


+1. The only real tricky part is being fast/efficient enough to manage 100+ models for a timed game. It can be done, but it will be difficult.

It's not terrible. You just move the front line where you want to position the blob, then fill in the gap with models from the back of the unit, adjusting HQ positions as you go. You can effectively reposition an entire blob that way in 5 minutes. Of course, if you're playing at points levels higher than 1000, you don't really need to move the blob that much past the first few turns, if my own experience is anything to go by. Because, like I said, you definitely want the unit to be Shoota boyz, meaning the whole thing is a shooty deathstar. Any unit below AV12 that comes close will be shredded, or higher if you have the max # of rokkits. I prefer to have PKs on my Warboss and Big Meks, with several BC nobz and little Meks to take challenges. If my opponent has walkers he hopes to tie up the Tide with I'll put in PK nobs instead.

The point being, you don't really have to GO anywhere with the unit to keep it effective once it's midfield, or once you have it on an objective (Relic mission is awesome for this, as you can have a model just pick it up and move to the middle of the blob). You'll ideally have enough points for some extra units of grots or boyz to capture things as well, or a squad of Lootas/Mek Guns/Flash Gitz to shoot your opponent off theirs.

At 2,000pts I like to run Green Tide along with a Council of WAAAGH unit, and a handful of basic grots/boyz mobs. You can put the entirety of the Council in a Trukk and have it in CC by turn 2, and it destroys arse. Conversely if you get lucky rolling on the Ghazzy Warlord Traits table (remember, you get to take two extra Traits with Ghaz as your warlord in this unit) you can have the Council outflank. The last time I took the Council I lost one wound on a nob during the entire game, and they ate 4 units of Marines, including a unit of Assault Marines. It is expensive but tough.

just take 2 units of grots for 80pts and a painboy on foot for 50pts. Or 1 unit of grots for backfield and a second unit of boyz for alpha striking, assuming points remain (since the tide is usually expensive as gak)

Outta add an HQ mek though and keep him up front-ish so he can soak a challenge rather than one of your precious pk nobs. Worth the 15pt investment lol.

Can you guys imagine this formation if the old kff rule existed still, but still a 5++? rofl....

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Can you guys imagine this formation if the old kff rule existed still, but still a 5++? rofl....

That would be ridiculously awesome but you can still fit like 90% of a green tide mob in the bubble created by two KFF meks (if your Big Meks are on the proper sized bases, you get a bubble that's about 28" x 14") while still being spread out enough to have 2" between models. Just make sure your front line and sides are within that bubble. That's why it's good to take a "combo meal" with two KFFs and a Painboy with the minimum 3-mob grot tax making up the Orky FOC...

Yeah but that takes two meks lol.

Probably still worth it though, add a third grot unit to allow 3 HQs so you can get 2 big meks and a painboy.

...dat's wot I sed...

I will be interested to see how it goes. Still comes down to just 1 big unit can only do 1 thing a turn. And if the PKs or ICs are not in the right position, it can be bogged down in CC for a couple of turns fairly easily.

KFF is great, but if you are bunching the boyz together to fit in the range, it doesn't really help against blasts and templates.

Also, barrage is a thing, so watch out getting the couple of important models sniped out.

Hope it works, it would be cool to see... I just see too many weaknesses with it.

The point of a green tide is that your opponent can do zero things while you do one thing. He'll have a hard time capturing objectives if the entire table is clogged with boyz.

coredump wrote:
I will be interested to see how it goes. Still comes down to just 1 big unit can only do 1 thing a turn. And if the PKs or ICs are not in the right position, it can be bogged down in CC for a couple of turns fairly easily.

KFF is great, but if you are bunching the boyz together to fit in the range, it doesn't really help against blasts and templates.

Also, barrage is a thing, so watch out getting the couple of important models sniped out.

Hope it works, it would be cool to see... I just see too many weaknesses with it.

Dude. Your concerns are totally unfounded. You don't have to bunch up models. Even large blasts are only hitting 5-6 boyz, which is what happened in 6th ed. anyway due to unit coherency. I never lost an IC due to barrage in the 5 7th ed. games I've played - you have SO MANY chances for 2+ Look Out Sir in a Tide, and THEY all get to save on 5++/5+ as well. I lost 3 models to an outflanking Hellfire Land Raider before I charged and wrecked it in CC, templates of all kinds aren't much of a threat. ESPECIALLY if you give the Warboss a Big Bosspole - that unit isn't going anywhere. If you take PK nobs and put PKs on all the ICs that can take them, (and aren't a complete idiot about deploying/troop movement) there will always be one where you need it. The only real hard counter for this unit is for your opponent to use as many Wyverns as they can field (and that's why you also take MANz missiles/Mek guns/etc.).

I don't even know another way to put it: A properly-constructed Green Tide is a top-tier formation and is incredibly difficult to get rid of that puts out ridiculous damage every turn.

Only downside I see is speed. And the fact that the entire blob can only score one objective...
Would it be worth it for a character that adds infiltrate, or a weird boy for the chance of the teleport power?

As for the barrage thing....Look Out Sir got changed to pick a model in the unit within 6" rather than closest model within 2". You would have to take a TON of bullseye'd barrage or precision snipers to weave out that many boyz before you cant LoS anymore.

Pi plates arent anywhere near as big of a threat as you may think if you spread out. I always ask if my opponent has any, since i'd rather not have to worry about spacing but it can easily ruin your day if you bunch up too much.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
As for the barrage thing....Look Out Sir got changed to pick a model in the unit within 6" rather than closest model within 2". You would have to take a TON of bullseye'd barrage or precision snipers to weave out that many boyz before you cant LoS anymore.

Pi plates arent anywhere near as big of a threat as you may think if you spread out. I always ask if my opponent has any, since i'd rather not have to worry about spacing but it can easily ruin your day if you bunch up too much.

yep - again this unit is just absurdly tough to significantly reduce during any given turn, let alone wipe out completely - I would like to see a game where someone is actually able to get 11 kill points from it

 Multimoog wrote:

coredump wrote:
I will be interested to see how it goes. Still comes down to just 1 big unit can only do 1 thing a turn. And if the PKs or ICs are not in the right position, it can be bogged down in CC for a couple of turns fairly easily.

KFF is great, but if you are bunching the boyz together to fit in the range, it doesn't really help against blasts and templates.

Also, barrage is a thing, so watch out getting the couple of important models sniped out.

Hope it works, it would be cool to see... I just see too many weaknesses with it.

Dude. Your concerns are totally unfounded. You don't have to bunch up models. Even large blasts are only hitting 5-6 boyz, which is what happened in 6th ed. anyway due to unit coherency. I never lost an IC due to barrage in the 5 7th ed. games I've played - you have SO MANY chances for 2+ Look Out Sir in a Tide, and THEY all get to save on 5++/5+ as well. I lost 3 models to an outflanking Hellfire Land Raider before I charged and wrecked it in CC, templates of all kinds aren't much of a threat. ESPECIALLY if you give the Warboss a Big Bosspole - that unit isn't going anywhere. If you take PK nobs and put PKs on all the ICs that can take them, (and aren't a complete idiot about deploying/troop movement) there will always be one where you need it. The only real hard counter for this unit is for your opponent to use as many Wyverns as they can field (and that's why you also take MANz missiles/Mek guns/etc.).

I don't even know another way to put it: A properly-constructed Green Tide is a top-tier formation and is incredibly difficult to get rid of that puts out ridiculous damage every turn.

Hey, don't waste your time convincing me... you should be getting ready to win NoVa.

OTOH, *you* were the one talking about putting all of those models within KFF range, and even using your numbers of 14x28", that means less than 1" separating each model, and that does not take into account any issues with terrain. So you *are* going to be bunching up the models. And since KFF is a radius, you will not actually have anywhere near that much space. To actually fit everyone within KFF range, even in out of terrain... means closer to 2/3" between models.

Plus, you know cover 1/10 of the board.... what makes you think that means your opponent can't do anything else?
You are going to always be going through difficult terrain, and either bleeding out of KFF range, or getting bunched up, or snaking around terrain.

You can still only shoot 1 unit, and if you destroy it, you can't charge at anything. Anything assaults you, especially from behind or sides, and that *entire* unit gets pushed in the wrong direction. (and gets really bunched up for barrage weapons)
You spread out, and it means those PKs are also really spread out and will have a hard time coming to bear on a tough target. It also means all of those shootas will likely not be in range at the same time.

Barrage sniping doesn't need everyone to die, it just needs you to miss a LoS or two, putting 10-15 hits with a unit of wyverns or biovores or thunderfire cannons is not really that hard. And if you are spread out that much, it really does become possible to kill everything within 6" of the IC.

You still don't have OS, so a last turn tank shock will even steal any objectives you happen to be sitting on. Its only 1 unit, so it can't take more than 1 objective. And its slow.... especially since it will always be moving through terrain.

Case in point, Emporers will... what do you do? Yes, it is an impressive unit. But it is still only *1* unit, and a slow one at that.

coredump wrote:



OTOH, *you* were the one talking about putting all of those models within KFF range, and even using your numbers of 14x28", that means less than 1" separating each model, and that does not take into account any issues with terrain. So you *are* going to be bunching up the models. And since KFF is a radius, you will not actually have anywhere near that much space. To actually fit everyone within KFF range, even in out of terrain... means closer to 2/3" between models.

Not all, most. 80-90% gets KFF cover and FNP, while the rest gets FNP. Positioning the KFFs is important, like positioning a shield on a Knight.

coredump wrote:
Plus, you know cover 1/10 of the board.... what makes you think that means your opponent can't do anything else?
You are going to always be going through difficult terrain, and either bleeding out of KFF range, or getting bunched up, or snaking around terrain.

You didn't read where I mentioned you don't really have to move this unit to keep it being effective once it's midfield, or even...

coredump wrote:
Case in point, Emporers will... what do you do? Yes, it is an impressive unit. But it is still only *1* unit, and a slow one at that.

...keep the unit where it is and camp on an important objective, like the one on your side for EW or the midfield objective in Relic. Let other units score secondary objectives like First Blood, Linebreaker, etc. You will not be able to remove it in the allotted time/# of turns, unless...

coredump wrote:
putting 10-15 hits with a unit of wyverns or biovores or thunderfire cannons is not really that hard

You also overlooked where I mentioned you can definitely counter this hard with Wyverns. Not so much Thunderfire - I've used this list in a few games with my opponents firing multiple Thunderfire cannons at the unit every turn and not reducing it significantly (IG player with 3 TF cannons firing all game took out 15 Ork Boyz in total). I was rolling lucky, but it was still not effective. You didn't read where I mentioned needing a properly constructed Green Tide, meaning it has at least two KFFs and a Painboy. Those saves minimize casualties immensely.

coredump wrote:
You can still only shoot 1 unit, and if you destroy it, you can't charge at anything.

If you're destroying a unit per turn with shooting, and you can definitely do that, you don't need to charge.

coredump wrote:
Anything assaults you, especially from behind or sides, and that *entire* unit gets pushed in the wrong direction. (and gets really bunched up for barrage weapons)

It gets pushed in the wrong direction if you're trying to get it across the field. You should have other units doing that. Or Flash Gitz/Lootas/Mek Gunz shooting opponents off their objectives.

coredump wrote:
You spread out, and it means those PKs are also really spread out and will have a hard time coming to bear on a tough target.

This is an issue, but not nearly as much of one so as to make the unit not usable. I got tied up with a Dreadnaught for a turn until I could get my Big Mek's PK to it. Keep an eye on the board and maneuver troops accordingly. It's not brain surgery, it's resource management.

coredump wrote:
It also means all of those shootas will likely not be in range at the same time.

Not having every model in range isn't the worst thing, either. 40 models in range with 2 shoota shots apiece is 80 shots. This is how I took out most of the units of people I've played against. They can scoot their units across the backfield but they're never out of range of another shooty unit or backing up into a CC unit.

coredump wrote:
And if you are spread out that much, it really does become possible to kill everything within 6" of the IC.

With Wyverns, sure, but I covered that already. Scattering, KFF and FNP saves for all the boyz the IC is making (2+) LOS rolls on... I don't know if you think I'm lying about the games I've used this unit in or what, but I'm not Theoryhammering, this is from experience against several armies.

coredump wrote:
You still don't have OS, so a last turn tank shock will even steal any objectives you happen to be sitting on. Its only 1 unit, so it can't take more than 1 objective. And its slow.... especially since it will always be moving through terrain.

This is why you use it in a larger game where you can have other things taking and holding objectives. I should probably explain: you likely don't want to use a Green Tide as the only unit in a game. The Tide works best if you think of it as a giant amoeboid MC that sits on an important objective, lunging and shooting at anything that gets near it. Thinking of it as a regular unit of Boyz writ large is not utilizing it correctly, unless you have a big open area free of terrain you can shoot it across. Dunno what else to tell ya, because it seems like you're convinced it can't be good for anything. So, *shrug*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a list I like that utilizes the Tide well:

Not all, most. 80-90% gets KFF cover and FNP, while the rest gets FNP. Positioning the KFFs is important, like positioning a shield on a Knight.

Not even 'most'.
You were talking about spreading out... to keep max distance, you can keep less than 35% in KFF range.
To keep 85% in range, you must cut down coherency to less than 1" apart.

And this all assumes no terrain to mess things up, and being able to put the KFF where you want them.
Which, by the way, means in the middle of the unit, which means the PKs are going to have a hard time getting into CC.

You didn't read where I mentioned you don't really have to move this unit to keep it being effective once it's midfield, or even...
...keep the unit where it is and camp on an important objective, like the one on your side for EW or the midfield objective in Relic. Let other units score secondary objectives like First Blood, Linebreaker, etc. You will not be able to remove it in the allotted time/# of turns, unless...

I did read that... my point is spending 1000+points on one unit to sit an objective is not a good use of points. (Sans Relic) And spending 1000+points on a unit that you can't move fast, is not a good idea. Sure, it can take a couple of turns to move to midfiled.... there is a lot of battlefield besides that.

You also overlooked where I mentioned you can definitely counter this hard with Wyverns. Not so much Thunderfire - I've used this list in a few games with my opponents firing multiple Thunderfire cannons at the unit every turn and not reducing it significantly (IG player with 3 TF cannons firing all game took out 15 Ork Boyz in total). I was rolling lucky, but it was still not effective. You didn't read where I mentioned needing a properly constructed Green Tide, meaning it has at least two KFFs and a Painboy. Those saves minimize casualties immensely.

Look, stop with the arrogance of "you must not have read this part...." as if reading your claims would completely change my mind. I *did* read it, I *did* factor in the painboy and 2 KFFs... not overly impressed.

Even assuming you keep both of those all game, you will still fail 44% of those saves. 3 TF means 12 small blasts, which means 72 small blasts over the game. To kill 11 models means 25 wounds, or 30 hits. So either you got *really* lucky, or he hit less than one model for every 2 blasts.

Evenso, he did it wrong. You target the painboy. Assuming you can get the first barrage on target, you wait for him to miss a few LoS and saves. Sure it will take awhile, but 4 small blasts can rack up a lot of hits, and if he has 3 TFs.... it shouldn't take that long at all. Once he goes down, you target the Big Meks.

Not having every model in range isn't the worst thing, either. 40 models in range with 2 shoota shots apiece is 80 shots. This is how I took out most of the units of people I've played against. They can scoot their units across the backfield but they're never out of range of another shooty unit or backing up into a CC unit.

Math is not being your friend. You can't have it both ways.
You say you are spread apart. At 2" coherency, even if I walk to the front of the unit, into base contact... only *15* boyz will be in range.
Lets assume you want to stick with your "80% in KFF" and only have 1" coherency. Now in that same position, there is still less than 35 boyz in range.
And if I do something 'crazy' like... stay 6" away... you drop back to 15ish boyz again. (heavens forbid I stay 12-18" away.... you killer unit becomes a paperweight)

Evenso, 35 boyz, 70 shots, 24 hits,
12 T4 wounds, 4 dead MEq.
4 T6 wounds, 1.33 W from a carnifex
8 T5 wounds, 2.66 dead bikes
etc....

For a 1000+ pt unit...????

And..... you don't *have* that many units. Even the list below, you have this big unit, the Nobz (which I assume get some ICs, and....??? Oh yeah, the gretchin..... how are those going to stop someone from "scooting across your backfield"

Here's a list I like that utilizes the Tide well:

Thanks for the list... a couple of questions/comments:

I see you skipped the shootas; thought it was an oversight, but realize you didn't have the points. So now how does this unit kill anything?
Why did you write them down as 4 units of 25?


So, now you have a whopping *2* units... oh, and some gretchin. You have NO shooting (yay sluggas...) , and they are both really slow. (Anyone with a brain will take out that trukk turn 1. ) The council seems like a CC beast, but with S&P, how will it catch anything?

The way I see this... you have 1 900pt unit that is slow, has no shooting, and only 3 PK in a sea of bodies
A second 1K unit that is *really* slow, can't Run, and has a few shootas....

Oh, and some gretchin.

You're not actually processing what I'm writing and just restating the same reasons why you think it "can't" work, so I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Anyone can read what I've written and decide for themselves if it's something they want to field. I've been winning games in my local meta with it, so again, *shrug*.

From my current experience with the Tide, I've played 4 games and won them all. I've played Regular Marines, Tau, Blood Angels, and IG. While my opponents were not 'net listing', they were tailoring hardcore because I told them I was bringing the Tide. I want to see what kind of force it takes to take them all down.

My Tide is pretty small, almost bare bones so it fits into an 1850 point game. I typically have 116 bodies in the initial formation. That's 110 Boyz, 5 PK Nobz and the Warboss himself. Just 6 PKs alone has proven to be more than enough to kill whatever tries to confront the Tide in CC. In a second detachment, I take 1 Megafield Mek, and a Painboy, and stick them into the Tide. I keep the Big Mek close enough to the front ranks to cover the front 6 Boyz. If a couple bleed from the sides, I don't sweat it much. I don't space often for advantage due to time.

My Tide gets a 4++...and a 5+ FNP. Even with large blasts hitting me, my Tide has yet to drop. It's so ridiculously durable. With the Mega Field, even S8 ID attacks make me laugh because I've got a 50% chance to shrug it off with the MFF.

For support, I run Big Gunz on the backfield to pepper their lines with gunfire, specifically targeting foolish foot soldiers to knock out any super scoring units they might have. Deff Kopters rush in from their sides, popping any Tanks my Tide has yet to flip over and harass back field artillery or scorers. Trukks with Boyz hang out back until they have an objective they need to grab.

Though the Tide is 'slow', your opponent has NO CHOICE but to respond to it. And when they suddenly have Kopters on their asses, they now have to choose. Stop the Boyz, or stop the 2 Wound Jinkers who are blowing my backfield up with TL Rokkit fire. If they attack the Kopters, my Boyz have by this time either decended upon them, or are more than close enough to shoot them up or Waaagh into them. If they go for Boyz...well, Kopters will feth their day up on the backfield.

The Tide is foolishly good. That "It's slow, so it sucks'' attitude is what cost my opponents their games. You don't bring JUST the Tide with you, or you're doing it wrong. The Tide is your wall and distraction, while other scorers hang out and laugh in maniacal delight that you can't figure out who to target and when.

 Multimoog wrote:
You're not actually processing what I'm writing and just restating the same reasons why you think it "can't" work, so I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Anyone can read what I've written and decide for themselves if it's something they want to field. I've been winning games in my local meta with it, so again, *shrug*.

Because you keep writing and ignoring reality.
Somehow this unit will be too spread out to worry about barrage, but so close together that KFF will cover 85%.
It will be helped by all the 'other' units, then you only take one other unit.
It is really slow, so you plan on balancing that with an even *slower* unit.
You claim it will easily kill a unit a turn with shootas, but will be too spread out to get even half of them in range.
You brag about 80 shots, but ignore BS 2 S4 in the calculations.
Somehow you get hit with 12 S6 small blasts every turn, but only lose 11 models
You act like KFF+FnP is some bastion of resilency, when it really is just a 4+ save.
I ask how you will take objectives with one slow unit, and you provide a list with 2 slow units.
You have *no shooting*
You hve *no anti-air*
You have no Objective secured.
You have nothing to stop a waveserpent from tankshocking your GT blob and stealing the objective. (or many other OS tanks)

So tell us, what unit is that GT ever going to kill? Shootas are bad, sluggas make it a joke.

When I destroy that Trukk, how many turns will it take the CoW to actually get into combat..?? 3? 4?....??

You keep trying to have it both ways, the PKs will be spread out, but somehow always where you need them for assault.

I am "processing" what you are saying just fine. (but hey, thanks for the heavy handed condescension), but what you are saying just doesn't add up. You are not even internally consistent....


Edit: I believe you when you say you are winnning games in your 'local meta'. You should see some of the lists I win with in my local meta. Doesn't make them a good unit/formation....

coredump wrote:
Because you keep writing and ignoring reality.

Read the post above your previous one. Malevolence takes a slightly different build than I do but is seeing similar results - one 4++ KFF versus my 2 5++.

For clarification though, I never said you had to have models at their max coherency, just that they don't have to be bunched up base-to-base to fit as many as possible in the KFF bubble, and it's OK to have bleed on the sides or back of the unit due to FNP. Even spreading bases out by 1" - 1.5" means only five or six are fitting under a large blast. That's what I mean when I say you're obviously not reading/processing my posts.

Although:

When I destroy that Trukk, how many turns will it take the CoW to actually get into combat..?? 3? 4?....??

Turn 2, because I keep it in cover/behind LOS blocking terrain when it's not moving/going flat out 24". It's been blown up but a combination of 'eavy armor/FNP/Mega Armor means that nothing inside will lose a wound even if it is blown. That's if I haven't rolled the extra Warlord Trait that lets me outflank from reserve. You should probably become more familiar with the rules of all these units before you try to poke holes in their strategies.