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Alright, Nids have been just dogging me in 7th edition. I have played 6 or 7 games against them and I have gotten close a few times, but have not won one of them. I have been playing against amazing generals like jy2, but I cant find anything that would really help me.

Playing Tau, there are a few ways to deal with their flyers, Skyrays with the Markerlights, and Skyfire Bursttides. This is very effective, but I would rather take 3 Iontides with some markerlight support a la Spam Adams. The fact that all the big guys really only have 3+ saves is great, but the 6 wounds, ouch.

Here are my problems against Nids:

-They are so mobile, I cant find away to put enough bullets into them and win the game.
-Models with tons of wounds. Volume of fire is not the problem, but I have to really focus things to gun them down
-The Malanthrope, played against it twice, screwed me over twice, how do you deal?
-Sheer amount of models/bodies on the field. Come turn 5, the Nids player usually has quite a few things still on the table, and can tie up Riptides etc.

So Tau players, what do you think? How can Nids be dealt with? I'm not looking to just make hard counters to Nids because lets be honest, a good army is usually a TAC one. Thanks for all the help.

Take more plasma and missiles in your bomb. Drop over rated riptides for skyrays. Profit.

Consider a Farsight army, stop running a 'bomb'. Max out your crisis suits, with missile pods. that way you can still use riptides to max effect. An army with access to 36-48 missile pods firing since turn 1 is going to demoralize just about anyone. otherwise, a gunline could be fun too.

 carldooley wrote:
Consider a Farsight army, stop running a 'bomb'. Max out your crisis suits, with missile pods. that way you can still use riptides to max effect. An army with access to 36-48 missile pods firing since turn 1 is going to demoralize just about anyone. otherwise, a gunline could be fun too.

Why would you want your opponent taking 3+ saves all day? We have acess to easy AP 1 and 2, why not use it? I agree. I will be dropping the bomb.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Why would you want your opponent taking 3+ saves all day? We have acess to easy AP 1 and 2, why not use it? I agree. I will be dropping the bomb.

Range.

Well I play Tyranids and have had extensive knowledge against Tau, who usually runs a gun line with two Riptides.

Volume of shots is going to get the Nids dropping like flies. TL HYMP are going to be your friend - there's only so many 3+ saves a TMC can make until it dies.

Large blasts will help against the horde parts of the army.

Your stuff is going to out range almost everything except Warriors with a Biocannon or Biovores and even then, they can both be IK with S8.

I'm not sure if XV8's can run HYMP but stuff that can is ideal to fire across the board.If you can field multiple units with the same load out to increase the amount of targets that your opponents have to deal with is going to help you out a lot as even if you lose one unit, you still have another dishing out damage.

Other than that's it's usual business. Markerlights to improve BS and Ignore Cover and target priority (stuff that gives Synapse and Shrouded are top, usually Shrouded since well constructed lists can function well outside of Synapse while the horde parts of armies are dependent on Venomthropes and Malanthropes). Try to be mobile too, if you stay in one place the Nids will catch up and rip Tau apart in CC.

My experience is mostly at lower points games, but I'll say what I've found.

Sky Rays are almost as perfect a weapon as you can get against Tyranid flyers, and have skyfire markerlights to still be useful after they rack all 6 missiles into something. Depending on what kind of army the opponent has I'd take either 1 or 2 of them. Also, throwing this out there, Tyranids are one of the only armies in the game I might consider bringing sniper drones against.

My regular army core is an Ethereal and 2-3 squads of fire warriors in devilfish. The "Tau drive by" will do miracles for liquidating big groups of infantry. It does wonders at liquidating big groups of most things actually.

Riptides, not a thing you want to take against Tyranids. Too many points in one unit that won't earn it back. Then again I'm not a big fan of riptides anyway.

Other than that I will just reiterate something that is extremely important. kill synapse first. It doesn't matter if there's a giant wall of death coming towards you. Don't get distracted. Once a Tyranid unit is out of synapse range it gets incredibly less effective. You will end up with things like a squad charging the nearest target no matter what (make it a vehicle. I love watching giant squads slapping vehicles they can't hurt) or being forced to move towards area terrain and only getting to fire if it is in area terrain.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Other than that I will just reiterate something that is extremely important. kill synapse first. It doesn't matter if there's a giant wall of death coming towards you. Don't get distracted. Once a Tyranid unit is out of synapse range it gets incredibly less effective. You will end up with things like a squad charging the nearest target no matter what (make it a vehicle. I love watching giant squads slapping vehicles they can't hurt) or being forced to move towards area terrain and only getting to fire if it is in area terrain.

He's got it. Target priority is key. (1) Synapse (2) Flyrants. If you face a skyblight list where Flyrants are the primary synapse source 1 and 2 are the same.

missile pods wound more reliably than plasma and have waaaaay better range than fusions. get a buffmander and stick him in a unit of crisis suits with missilepods or broadsides with missiles they will eat a big bug a turn reliably at 36" looong before they can charge you. I have ran this against other Tau and they even kill riptides with monster hunter and reroll failed hits reliably.

As said before, look at synapse. If you can force a couple of units out of synapse because you popped one of his brainy bugs or whatever you wanna call the ones that have synapse, hes going to hate you. Their army is "fearless" for a reason, when they actually lose that fearless it is devastating.

Sniper Kroot are cheap, objective secured, lots of shots, and can wound anything in the Tyranid army.

Against hordes of Warriors (they have their own synapse), Ion weapons become interesting - your source of S8 blasts.

Pathfinders, Razorsharks, Barracudas and Hammerheads sport these. (Riptides as well, but it's much more expensive than any above). Of course, you'll need to overcharge... but a S8 AP4 blast downing an entire Warrior unit (that super-scores) seems quite exhilarating

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Alright, Nids have been just dogging me in 7th edition. I have played 6 or 7 games against them and I have gotten close a few times, but have not won one of them. I have been playing against amazing generals like jy2, but I cant find anything that would really help me.

Playing Tau, there are a few ways to deal with their flyers, Skyrays with the Markerlights, and Skyfire Bursttides. This is very effective, but I would rather take 3 Iontides with some markerlight support a la Spam Adams. The fact that all the big guys really only have 3+ saves is great, but the 6 wounds, ouch.

Here are my problems against Nids:

-They are so mobile, I cant find away to put enough bullets into them and win the game.
-Models with tons of wounds. Volume of fire is not the problem, but I have to really focus things to gun them down
-The Malanthrope, played against it twice, screwed me over twice, how do you deal?
-Sheer amount of models/bodies on the field. Come turn 5, the Nids player usually has quite a few things still on the table, and can tie up Riptides etc.

So Tau players, what do you think? How can Nids be dealt with? I'm not looking to just make hard counters to Nids because lets be honest, a good army is usually a TAC one. Thanks for all the help.

Surely you are joking right? Everything Tau has makes Tyranids evaporate. I don't know why you would ever choose to run 3 Ion tides (I'm serious, can someone answer this for me?) If you are running 3 riptides, 1 should be a burstide with skyfire and interceptor. Skyrays are deadly against Tyranid. Missile Sides are deadly against tyranids. 2 Missilesides will end a Malanthrope in a single round. Throw buffmander in there and they are downing an MC and 1/2 each turn. Missile Suites are deadly against Tyranids. Even Fire warriors kick tyranid in the teeth, but they aren't your first choice because they can be killed efficiently unlike Broadsides, Riptides, and Crisis Suites.

Also, pay close attention to the movement phase. Often Tau can be beaten in the movement phase, even though they are faster than they have any right to be. You have better shooting and more range than tyranids. That means stay back!. If you are getting blasted, line up along the board edge, and let 1/2 of the blasts scatter off the board. Don't become too attached to your supporting fire that you give them good targets or the ability to multi-assault, and sweeping advance a Riptide.

If you are having trouble with Target priority, look at it this way.
#1 Crones easy to kill, and they have a decent chance to do damage to you (Vector Strike kills a Broadside, Flamer drops marker lights), but don't waste AP:3 on them.
#2 Tyrants. Don't snapshoot things at them unless you've got enough markers to up you BS, or Twin linking, but Taking 1-2 of these down a turn should be easy. If a Tyrant does fail a grounding test, charge it with a riptide. Riptide can often kill flyrants in CC, especially if they've already taken a wound or two. If a Flyrant has Psychic Scream take that one down first.
#3 Exocrine. It is the only MC that you need to fear shooting at you.
#4 Gargoyles. These are the tarpit that can catch your stupid fast, unkillable riptides.
#5 Malanthropes / Venomthropes. These are force multipliers. Don't be afraid to snipe them out if they are protecting an Exocrine or Gargoyles.
#6 Dakkafexes. They have trouble catching you, and trouble doing much damage in shooting to your unkillable tau units, but they will eventually whittle you down a bit. Mainly you should run from them. Feel free to charge them with a Riptide. As long as you are getting the charge, and haven't taken a lot of wounds you can probably kill them thanks to your unreasonably overpowered invul.
#7 Mawlocs. Generally your defense against Mawlocs should be terrain. They can't hit upper levels. So Just stay there. But when they do come in, don't be afraid to kill them dead.

If shooting at something with a cover save (or Jink), always use marker lights to ignore cover.

tag8833 wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Alright, Nids have been just dogging me in 7th edition. I have played 6 or 7 games against them and I have gotten close a few times, but have not won one of them. I have been playing against amazing generals like jy2, but I cant find anything that would really help me.

Playing Tau, there are a few ways to deal with their flyers, Skyrays with the Markerlights, and Skyfire Bursttides. This is very effective, but I would rather take 3 Iontides with some markerlight support a la Spam Adams. The fact that all the big guys really only have 3+ saves is great, but the 6 wounds, ouch.

Here are my problems against Nids:

-They are so mobile, I cant find away to put enough bullets into them and win the game.
-Models with tons of wounds. Volume of fire is not the problem, but I have to really focus things to gun them down
-The Malanthrope, played against it twice, screwed me over twice, how do you deal?
-Sheer amount of models/bodies on the field. Come turn 5, the Nids player usually has quite a few things still on the table, and can tie up Riptides etc.

So Tau players, what do you think? How can Nids be dealt with? I'm not looking to just make hard counters to Nids because lets be honest, a good army is usually a TAC one. Thanks for all the help.

Surely you are joking right? Everything Tau has makes Tyranids evaporate. I don't know why you would ever choose to run 3 Ion tides (I'm serious, can someone answer this for me?) If you are running 3 riptides, 1 should be a burstide with skyfire and interceptor. Skyrays are deadly against Tyranid. Missile Sides are deadly against tyranids. 2 Missilesides will end a Malanthrope in a single round. Throw buffmander in there and they are downing an MC and 1/2 each turn. Missile Suites are deadly against Tyranids. Even Fire warriors kick tyranid in the teeth, but they aren't your first choice because they can be killed efficiently unlike Broadsides, Riptides, and Crisis Suites.

Also, pay close attention to the movement phase. Often Tau can be beaten in the movement phase, even though they are faster than they have any right to be. You have better shooting and more range than tyranids. That means stay back!. If you are getting blasted, line up along the board edge, and let 1/2 of the blasts scatter off the board. Don't become too attached to your supporting fire that you give them good targets or the ability to multi-assault, and sweeping advance a Riptide.

If you are having trouble with Target priority, look at it this way.
#1 Crones easy to kill, and they have a decent chance to do damage to you (Vector Strike kills a Broadside, Flamer drops marker lights), but don't waste AP:3 on them.
#2 Tyrants. Don't snapshoot things at them unless you've got enough markers to up you BS, or Twin linking, but Taking 1-2 of these down a turn should be easy. If a Tyrant does fail a grounding test, charge it with a riptide. Riptide can often kill flyrants in CC, especially if they've already taken a wound or two. If a Flyrant has Psychic Scream take that one down first.
#3 Exocrine. It is the only MC that you need to fear shooting at you.
#4 Gargoyles. These are the tarpit that can catch your stupid fast, unkillable riptides.
#5 Malanthropes / Venomthropes. These are force multipliers. Don't be afraid to snipe them out if they are protecting an Exocrine or Gargoyles.
#6 Dakkafexes. They have trouble catching you, and trouble doing much damage in shooting to your unkillable tau units, but they will eventually whittle you down a bit. Mainly you should run from them. Feel free to charge them with a Riptide. As long as you are getting the charge, and haven't taken a lot of wounds you can probably kill them thanks to your unreasonably overpowered invul.
#7 Mawlocs. Generally your defense against Mawlocs should be terrain. They can't hit upper levels. So Just stay there. But when they do come in, don't be afraid to kill them dead.

If shooting at something with a cover save (or Jink), always use marker lights to ignore cover.

Hey! Don't be giving him all our secrets! Now he's going to beat me. Hahaha....j.k.

Yeah, tag gives some very good pointers with regards to Tau vs Tyranids. Tau is actually a tough army for bugs to face. However, the difference is this. Bugs have a harder time against a balanced, distributed Tau offense than one with a centralized, focal point for its offense. In order words, we have a better chance against a deathstar Tau build than we do against multiple Tau threats.

You might want to consider decentralizing your main offense somewhat to spread out the threat into more units instead of 1 deadly unit. The one weakness of deathstar builds will always be against mobile MSU builds. De-emphasize your deathstar (reduce it in size/potency) in order to spread out your offense more - get 1 more riptide or some skyrays or whatever - and now you will force your opponent to have to choose. Either go after the mini-deathstar and take the pain from your other units or ignore the deathstar and watch as it still has the capability to down 1 MC a turn. With your current list, I can basically ignore everything else and just focus on your deathstar, or I can easily kill your supporting units if I ignore your deathstar. It actually makes my decisions much, much easier.

 jy2 wrote:
Tau is actually a tough army for bugs to face. However, the difference is this. Bugs have a harder time against a balanced, distributed Tau offense than one with a centralized, focal point for its offense. In order words, we have a better chance against a deathstar Tau build than we do against multiple Tau threats.

You might want to consider decentralizing your main offense somewhat to spread out the threat into more units instead of 1 deadly unit. The one weakness of deathstar builds will always be against mobile MSU builds. De-emphasize your deathstar (reduce it in size/potency) in order to spread out your offense more - get 1 more riptide or some skyrays or whatever - and now you will force your opponent to have to choose. Either go after the mini-deathstar and take the pain from your other units or ignore the deathstar and watch as it still has the capability to down 1 MC a turn. With your current list, I can basically ignore everything else and just focus on your deathstar, or I can easily kill your supporting units if I ignore your deathstar. It actually makes my decisions much, much easier.

That is really well said, and really solid advice. I agree with everything he says, and have an anecdote to back it up.

I know this has been said But I would like to reiterate that skyrays destroy tyranids. Period. I run 2 on the regular now and If I had a 3rd I'd probably add that to my regular list too.Not just for tyranids either! They typically obliterate 1 vehicle or MC from across the board and then they fly around and light things up with BS4 skyfire markers and smart missiles.

For the record Ion tides suck IMO and they're borderline useless against tyranids. The only thing I feel they do better than burst tides is intercept deep strikes, and broadsides generally do that better. Burst tides put out an OBNOXIOUS amount of firepower with nova charge, smart missiles and a couple marker lights. Additionally don't use burst tide for skyfire/intercept. It won't kill what its shooting at....ever.... If you need to down a flier, use something that can actually do the job. Skyrays,Missilesides,Commanders with skyfire,Quad gun.

I realize all that went a bit off topic but I'll leave it since its all sound advice. Personally I run Salamander allies with my tau for objective secure, flamers and a TFC. That handles hordes pretty well. I know fire warriors actually have a REALLY hard time staying alive vs nids so if you run kroot or crisis suits for your troops you'll be better off in this matchup (and in general actually because mobility is important).

Oh one more thing! Tag 8833 said that dakkafexes won't kill the crap out of you...thats a complete lie. Dakakfexes are probably what you should be most afraid of from the nids. A squad of 3 will statistically wipe out a squad of anything in your book aside from the riptide....which he shouldn't be shooting anyway, he should be trying to tarpit it.Charging fexes with a riptide sounds like a terrible idea too =) and an easy way to get your Riptide swept off the board. Aside from synapse and venomthropes, dakkafexes are probably next on my priority list.

 jy2 wrote:
Tau is actually a tough army for bugs to face. However, the difference is this. Bugs have a harder time against a balanced, distributed Tau offense than one with a centralized, focal point for its offense. In order words, we have a better chance against a deathstar Tau build than we do against multiple Tau threats.

You might want to consider decentralizing your main offense somewhat to spread out the threat into more units instead of 1 deadly unit. The one weakness of deathstar builds will always be against mobile MSU builds. De-emphasize your deathstar (reduce it in size/potency) in order to spread out your offense more - get 1 more riptide or some skyrays or whatever - and now you will force your opponent to have to choose. Either go after the mini-deathstar and take the pain from your other units or ignore the deathstar and watch as it still has the capability to down 1 MC a turn. With your current list, I can basically ignore everything else and just focus on your deathstar, or I can easily kill your supporting units if I ignore your deathstar. It actually makes my decisions much, much easier.

Very solid advice.

Having all of your firepower that can threaten his Flyers centralized to a single unit is asking for trouble. An MSU opponent like tyranids with lots of FMCs is a natural counter to a Bomb style list. A more TMC(Take Most Comers) list is more suited and much stronger against Nids and even against MSU builds in general.

Gone are the days of Deathstar 40k. MSU is king!

urza8188 wrote:
Additionally don't use burst tide for skyfire/intercept. It won't kill what its shooting at....ever....

Not necessarily true, I took VT on my Bursttide against nids and handily killed off his Tyrant on turn one... which dismantled synapse on that part of the board causing a large group of hormigaunts to eat each other (bad luck on his part) and stunted the entire movement of that flank. It left me feeling dirty. However, the storm raven is a different beast - but we aren't talking space marines.

Everything that has been suggested is solid advice for fighting nids - even a pure fire warrior army would make Nids sweat a little. Though they are squishy.

 digital-animal wrote:

urza8188 wrote:
Additionally don't use burst tide for skyfire/intercept. It won't kill what its shooting at....ever....

Not necessarily true, I took VT on my Bursttide against nids and handily killed off his Tyrant on turn one... which dismantled synapse on that part of the board causing a large group of hormigaunts to eat each other (bad luck on his part) and stunted the entire movement of that flank. It left me feeling dirty. However, the storm raven is a different beast - but we aren't talking space marines.

Everything that has been suggested is solid advice for fighting nids - even a pure fire warrior army would make Nids sweat a little. Though they are squishy.

Make nids sweat a lot. 30" pulse fire will eat through all the nid Troops and most Fast choices in a hurry.

Sorry I haven't been on the thread for a while, I am listening to your advice, and have formed some lists that I will try against some Nids players before I go after Jim again Basically the core of the lists consist of Ethereal in range of Sniper Drones for some fun triple tap stuff when the get close, a buffmander to go with the Broadsides, more Missilesides, the crisis suits with missile pods that just sit and shoot in the backfield, and then usually 2 Skyrays or one and an Ionhead, and 2 Bursttides with skyfire, maybe and Iontide, but those are overrated now, and then just a marker drone blob with an allied tank commander (not totally tricked, but enough) so I have BS5 markerlights. Yeah. What do you think?

Another option is to wait a week and use the new Tyranid drop pods and land your close range/assault units in the middle of his back line. If he takes an EWO IA, the shot may scatter and hit his own guys.

SM players to that to me a lot.

He will be forced to fire on the immediate threat in his face and be forced to split his fire, most likely letting something into melee in the next turn.

 Nilok wrote:
Another option is to wait a week and use the new Tyranid drop pods and land your close range/assault units in the middle of his back line. If he takes an EWO IA, the shot may scatter and hit his own guys.

SM players to that to me a lot.

He will be forced to fire on the immediate threat in his face and be forced to split his fire, most likely letting something into melee in the next turn.

You DO realize that this is a Tau player asking how to beat Nids? not the other way around.
OT, have you considered Longstrike?

 carldooley wrote:

 Nilok wrote:
Another option is to wait a week and use the new Tyranid drop pods and land your close range/assault units in the middle of his back line. If he takes an EWO IA, the shot may scatter and hit his own guys.

SM players to that to me a lot.

He will be forced to fire on the immediate threat in his face and be forced to split his fire, most likely letting something into melee in the next turn.

You DO realize that this is a Tau player asking how to beat Nids? not the other way around.
OT, have you considered Longstrike?

Sorry, I miss-read that, normally it is the other way around and on two hours of sleep.

For my lists I normally go with a Buffmander + Drone Controller and gun drones in a full squad of Crisis Suits who are loaded down with 2 (2x) Plasma Rifles and 1 (2x) Fusion Blasters, target locks and Gun Drones. This lets the unit murder most infantry with the 16 BS5 TL carbine shots, torch TEQ, and pop a vehicle (though against nids, he is just really good at hurting the MCs, maybe swap for (2x) Burst Cannons for room clearing or another set of Plasma Rifles). I always deep strike them, but your mileage may very against Nids, and if you want to always land where you want, take Farsight as your Warlord and VRT on buffmander(?) to runaway at I5 when you do get charged and survive. I find unless you have your Ethereal in a Devilfish (he can still inspire while he hides), he is too easy of a target.

For troops I love Kroot Snipers. Either infiltrate them were you want and let them snipe all day, or outflank with a hound and swap the sniper rounds for Krootox to put some Autoguns in their back flank. I've lost favor with normal Firewarriors since they usually just stand and shoot, and have limited threat multiplying. Your opponent works around the Firewarriors normally, giving more options. Something my friend taught me in MTG, give your opponent as few choices as possible while giving yourself the most choices possible.

Next on Elites, I always take one full Crisis squad and at least one Riptide with EWO IA and sometimes another with VT HBC. Crisis is the back line doom, and have always decimated my opponent's army when they landed. EWO IA Tide is for taking out reserves, hordes, and TEQ, always is a good distraction. VT HBC is for AA and AV, judging by your list, you know why.

For Fast Attack, Full squads of Piranhas clear a path better than Firewarriors since they are more evasive and faster while still packing the same punch. Drop the drones and focus down different units or make a screen to protect your army. Always have a DP on the lead vehicle. Another option is the Experimental XV109 Y'vahra rules, the thing is a beast but you need to OK it with your opponent.

Heavy Support, I love the Missileside, they have strength, rate of fire, and don't need much support to be good. I don't recommend sitting them with the Buffmander since while they are a good hammer, the Crisis squad is a better scalpel. Skyrays are great fire support and generally overshadow Hammerheads except on rare occasions (Nid Drop pod is going to be T5 so Railgun can 1 shot their W6). Don't really see much use in sniper drones since Kroot fill their role already and can be taken in a squad of 20(!), bye bye Nid MC. Just like the XV109, the XV107 R'varna also has Experimental rules and even in the fluff, murders Nids. The 2 (Nova for 4) Large Pie Plates can wipe out the little Nids if they are packed too tight, and are still dangerous to the MCs. If there are MC Broods, they will cry when they get shot with this thing (1 wound per hit at S6 vs normal infantry, 2x wounds per hit as S7 vs Beasts[and other stuff], 3x wounds per hit at S8 vs MCs[and other stuff]). Remember to ask your opponent before you bring it.

Darkstrider on an Icarus lascannon can one shot Harpy's, Crones, and the new drop pod each turn.

 D6Damager wrote:
Darkstrider on an Icarus lascannon can one shot Harpy's, Crones, and the new drop pod each turn.

ooh! nice.

A high number of shots is what you want. Fire Warriors buffed by Fireblades/ Ethereals, HYMP Broadsides. Riptides won't do particularly well against Tyranids, it's blast will only do one wound when shooting MC's, and if you use the IA's basic profile (which makes more sense) you will only do 3 wounds max, and that's assuming all of them hit, which you will need markerlights for. Thinking about it, the Heavy Burst Cannon (is that what it is called?) would be the better weapon to give a Riptide vs Nids. Ion Cannon Hammerheads is bad for the same reason as the Riptide, large blasts against singular MC's is not what you want. Skyrays do seem like a much better option, S8 AP3, perfect for dealing wounds on FMC's and MC's, which all have T5/6 and a 3 plus save.

If you move up with two devil fish full of 11 + 1 ethereal and 12 fire warriors that's 33 s5 shots and 36 s5 shots, then plus the the devil fish 8 a piece. That's a terrifying amount of firepower. You could even get one more in for another 36 and the fish. That plus some high yeild Missle pods on broadsides. At least two units. I like the firebase support cadre letting you take more skyrays, or even sniper drone teams(they benefit from the ethereal's rule). The firebase support cadre would also play into your desire to have a tac list.

He'll have to advance on you with most of his stuff, let him have it. Target priority is key. Use your ignores cover to get specific buff units.