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Say, for instance, I wanted to take a Void Claws formation for the WS5 Wolf Claw Terminators and the Comms Relay bonus.

Say, for instance, I'd like to attach a Wolf Priest in Terminator Armor to this Unit during Deployment.

The Formation Rules for Void Claws says they Deep Strike on Turn 1. Does this Wolf Priest in Terminator Armor now Deep Strike as a part of this Void Claws Unit?

It's a member if the unit for all rules purposes

you are ok to join a IC to a formation as long as the unit allows for it, there are no restriction from the formation, and you are following the ally matrix

I'd like confirmation of this as well,

If I have fierce eye's finest, a formation with 3 specifically equipped squads (as in they have to have the number of units and equipment listed) and a wolf lord, could I join a rune priest to one of the squads and would he get the Furious Charge and re-rolls which are the formation rules?

There is nothing stating I can't add units but if I did add him would it count as not being the squad required for the formation?

Thanks

Maybe No.

As a reward for adhering to these requirements, each Detachment grants its own Command Benefits to the units within it, which can really enhance their effectiveness in battle.

However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

3) Command Benefits This lists any additional bonuses or special rules that apply to some, or all, of the units in this Detachment.

7. Formation Special Rules: Every Formation includes one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army). Special rules that are unique to the Formation are described in full here, whilst others may be detailed earlier in this section or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

IE HQ from detachment X joined to unit from Formation Y does not give command benefits or impose restrictions from X to unit Y, nor do the command benefits or restrictions form Formation Y transfer to HQ from detachment X.

The same applies to the formation special rules as called out that the special rules only apply to the units that make it up, If the model is attached during deployment it has the command benefits/special rules from the detachment/formation it came from and is does not benefit from the command benefits/special rules of the different formation it has joined, as models may only be in 1 detachment, they cannot gain the benefit of special rules for two separate detachments.

blaktoof wrote:
Maybe No.
IE HQ from detachment X joined to unit from Formation Y does not give command benefits or impose restrictions from X to unit Y, nor do the command benefits or restrictions form Formation Y transfer to HQ from detachment X.

That is why we have the following rule:
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters"

An example would be the Wings of Sanguinius-Battle Formation.
The Detachment itself contains only Blood Angel-units with Jumppacks, but the Formation still grants Deep Strike and Descent of Angels to all units.
That means it applies to Independent Characters you attach to units from this Formation.
So you could attach a non-JP IC to a unit from this Formation, like Corbulo, and he'd have Deep Strike and Descent of Angels.

The rules for command benefits specifically call out that you can not give benefits from one detachment to another.

If you take an HQ from detachment A and put it in B, you cannot give it benefits from detachment B as they apply only to detachment B.

If it counts as part of the unit for all purposes your army list would be illegal by attaching the HQ to it, because it would have the restriction of what units are allowed in that formation as part of its special rules, which it would most likely not be part of.

Command Beneifts
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

note how it specifies models from the detachment. Not models in units of the detachment.

A IC counts as a model for all rules purposes that affect the unit, but it doesn't gain abilities of the unit unless it specifies "if a unit contains any model with x then it gets y"

regardless here is the RAW as to why you do not get to do this.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.

As we see stubborn special rule calls out "when a unit contains at least one model with this special rule..."



if the rule doesn't specify it is granted to models that join the unit that do not have it, or that only 1 model in the unit needs the rule for it to affect the unit, the joined IC does not benefit.

so for example the Wolf Guard Void Claws formation special rules.

1- Coordinated Assault- Affects the controlling player, you get it regardless of whats attached to the formation

2- If needs must- If you attach an IC you lose this, as only units from that formation get it and it is a special rule and the unit attached is not an IC from that formation, nor does it say it extends to all models in the unit, or if at least one model in the unit has this rule.

3- Spearhead Strike- The same as above, 2.

Kingsguard and sagaborn are the same, as 2 as well.

As blacktoof, unless the wording of the special rule allows it special rules unit has and the IC are not conferred upon joining. I don't think deepstrike is conferred, all models on the unitjust have it.

yeah incase of void claws the models have it by being in terminator armor.

If your character already has Deep strike (because of TDA) then he can join and deepstrike in with the formation.

If he does not have it, he does not gain it by being attached to the formation.

The ability for the void claws to deepstrike on turn 1 is unit based, and thus any characters attached to them would benefit from it since they are part of the unit for all rules purpose's.

blaktoof wrote:
The rules for command benefits specifically call out that you can not give benefits from one detachment to another.

Where does it state that these rules cannot extend to models outside the Detachment?

If you take an HQ from detachment A and put it in B, you cannot give it benefits from detachment B as they apply only to detachment B.

Citation?
Ps. We are not talking about HQ's, we are talking about IC's.

note how it specifies models from the detachment. Not models in units of the detachment.

That is irrelevant when the Benefit itself says it applies to the unit and not to the models.

regardless here is the RAW as to why you do not get to do this.

Also irrelevant.
I am not saying that an IC joining a Deep Strike-unit gains Deep Strike.
I am saying that when the Formation gives Deep Strike to the entire unit, it will also give Deep Strike to the IC because it is part of that unit for all rules purposes.

An external ruling says to apply an effect to the entire unit.
The IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Conclusion: The external ruling also applies to the attached IC.

so for example the Wolf Guard Void Claws formation special rules.

Coordinated Assault: Only works if a model from this Formation is alive. So doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.
If Needs Must: False. A unit from this Formation can reroll scatter and it still works if you attach an 'outside' Independent Character since it will still be a "unit from this Formation".
Spearhead Strike: False again. If you attach an outside IC to a unit from this Formation, the IC counts as part of that unit - but not the Formation - for all rules purposes and thus must begin the game in Reserves and must arrive in the first turn.
Kingsguard: This rule only applies to models from the Formation, so it does not apply to the IC since he will never be a model from the Formation.
Sagaborn: This rule only applies to Characters from the formation, so it does not apply to the 'outside' IC.


From the Champions of Fenris:

Formation Special Rules: Every Formation includes one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army).

Combine this with:

While I appreciate your response you left out any commentary on the relevant ones that point out the rules you ask for.

Special Rules When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

this overrides that an IC attached to a unit counts as the unit for all rules purposes specifically. Command benefits = special rules, in rulebook RAW. from SW supplement they are actually just called out as special rules, that you think this is irrelevant makes your entire response irrelevant :(

Command Beneifts
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

Models cannot belong to more than 1 detachment, and as such cannot gain the the command benefits/special rules granted to another detachment.

7. Formation Special Rules: Every Formation includes one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army). Special rules that are unique to the Formation are described in full here, whilst others may be detailed earlier in this section or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

none of the special rules you commented above have permission to extend to the unit or any model in the unit, they are granted to 'units from this formation' in the case of "void claws" units in that formation are 1 wolfguard terminator squad. Is the IC you attached 1 wolfguard terminator squad? because that is who gets permission to use that special rule. if you see any text that has the wording similar to stubborn in that it says "any unit with at least 1 model with this special rule.." or "When a unit contains at least one model with this special rule.." then you have permission for the special rule to extend to the IC attached, until then you do not. And no, as per the section of special rules under ICs they may count as the unit for all purposes, but they do not for special rules as it is specifically spelled out, which I quoted above and in my prior post.

As per the Rulebook the special rule does not extend to other models in the unit unless it SPECIFICALLY states it does, such as stubborn.

Spearhead Strike: All units from this Formation begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn.

is the attached IC a unit from that formation? Because that is who gets this special rule in this formation. The answer is absolutely no.

if the above said :

"Spearhead Strike: All units with this rule begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn."

then the IC could

I understand what you are saying, but perhaps you don't see what I am trying to say.
-If I take a unit that has Deep Strike and add an IC, the unit cannot Deep Strike since the IC has no Deep Strike and doesn't gain it.
That is correct.

But that's not what we do!
We take a unit (with or without Deep Strike).
We add an IC to the unit.
Then the Formation gives the entire unit Deep Strike and counts the IC as part of that unit.
So it's not the unit giving the IC the Deep Strike-rule (because that would be illegal according to the rules)

Your linked rule specifically says that the "unit's special rules" are not conferred.
But in the case of Wings of Sanguinius, it's not a "unit's special rule" but a Formation-rule.

Models cannot belong to more than 1 detachment, and as such cannot gain the the command benefits/special rules granted to another detachment.

Which, as I said before, is only relevant as long as the benefit only applies to models.
Most rules specifically mention that it only applies to models, but some apply to the entire unit.
And an Independent Character is part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Formation Special Rules

The rule you linked explains how a benefit for, let's say, Troops only benefit Troops from that Formation and not to Troops from another Detachment.

As per the Rulebook the special rule does not extend to other models in the unit unless it SPECIFICALLY states it does, such as stubborn.

See above for the difference between receiving a rule from a unit and receiving a rule from a Formation.

Formation rules are special rules, they are not conferred to the unit unless it specifically states they are conferred to the unit.

For the Space Wolves example you could take an IC with deepstrike and yes they could deepstrike, BUT the IC would not gain the special rule of the unit unless that special rule specifically states so. As such the unit could not deepstrike turn 1. This of course raises a RAW problem as the unit must arrive by deepstrike turn 1 but is forbidden to do so by the IC that was attached not having the special rule itself, and the special rule only benefiting units from that formation, which the IC is unambiguosly not a unit from that formation.

Formation Special Rules: Every Formation includes one or more special rules associated with the units that make up that Formation. The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up (even if there are other units of the same type in your army). Special rules that are unique to the Formation are described in full here, whilst others may be detailed earlier in this section or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules

there is no difference between formation special rules, and unit special rules. there are only special rules.

The units in this formation gain these special rules.

They are special rules.

at this time I would like for you to provide some citations that state a difference in special rules for units and formations, or something that cites that these specific formation special rules specifically extend to other models in the unit that would not have them.

The special rules for a Formation only apply to the units that make it up

Every time you link that rule, I will simply link:

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters

You will then link:

the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character

To which I reply: The unit's special rules are not conferred, the Formation's special rules are applied.
There is no rule to prevent such a thing! But we do have permission because it counts as part of that unit.

at this time I would like for you to provide some citations that state a difference in special rules for units and formations

The IC cannot benefit from rules that the unit had before he joined them.
Applying a rule granted by the Formation would be the same as applying a Blessing from a Psyker.

or something that cites that these specific formation special rules specifically extend to other models in the unit that would not have them.

Easy:
1) The Formation gives a special rule to the unit.
2) The IC counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.
Conclusion: The Formation gives the special rule to the unit and the IC can benefit from it.

There is no such thing as "formation special rules"

the units in the formation get the special rules.

they are special rules.

your twisting of the RAW to create a false interpretation, is false.

The IC counts for part of the unit for all rules purposes except special rules as this is specifically stated. The special rules the IC has and the special rules the unit has have to specifically state that they transfer to other models in the unit even if they do not have the special rule as per stubborn. This is all specifically stated RAW

you are absolutely wrong on this.

and you have nothing to back it up with RAW.

One could argue that as soon as you attach an independent character to a formation unit from outside the formation, you break that formation and become unbound gaining NO formation bonuses for any units in the formation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In any case, independent characters join units during deployment or when put into reserves. Formations are created (and their bonuses applied) before that time (before the game begins). As such their benefits can't be applied to a character from outside the formation.

Unbound is at list building time though, so while you could make that assertion, it has no basis in rules.

Your second assertion is false, as well. If I place an IC within the unit it counts as a member of that unit for all rules purposes. If the unit has a rule stating "this unit may deepstrike" then the IC can also deepstrike.

Formations are at list building time. An IC not part of that formation isn't part of that formation, therefore does not gain the benefits confered by a formation on a formations units.
If a character without deepstrike joins a unit that can, that unit cannot deepstrike, but may still start in reserves.

blaktoof wrote:
There is no such thing as "formation special rules"
the units in the formation get the special rules.
they are special rules.
your twisting of the RAW to create a false interpretation, is false.

But there is such a thing as special rules granted by the Formation.

The IC counts for part of the unit for all rules purposes except special rules as this is specifically stated. The special rules the IC has and the special rules the unit has have to specifically state that they transfer to other models in the unit even if they do not have the special rule as per stubborn. This is all specifically stated RAW

So you are saying that a Blessing that grants a Special Rule cannot effect an attached IC because that would "extend the special rule to the IC"?

you are absolutely wrong on this.
and you have nothing to back it up with RAW.

I just did. Maybe you'd like to buy a pair of glasses or learn to read?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your second assertion is false, as well. If I place an IC within the unit it counts as a member of that unit for all rules purposes. If the unit has a rule stating "this unit may deepstrike" then the IC can also deepstrike.

Exactly!
There is a difference between a Unit that has Deep Strike, which does not confer to the IC, and a rule that says "this unit may Deep Strike".

 Amiricle wrote:
Formations are at list building time. An IC not part of that formation isn't part of that formation, therefore does not gain the benefits confered by a formation on a formations units.
If a character without deepstrike joins a unit that can, that unit cannot deepstrike, but may still start in reserves.

Be more precise, as you have contradicted what I have said (which is true) with a statement that is not always true

If the unit has the special rule "Deepstrike" within each models entry, then you are correct - a non-DS capable IC joining the unit does NOT gain the ability to DS

If, instead, and as I correctly and specifically stated, instead the unit has a rule that states "this unit may deepstrike", then the attached IC CAN deepstrike, as he is a member of the unit for ALL RULES PURPOSES.

If you disagree, some actual rules would be useful here.

Order of operations. An IC is a separate HQ unit unto itself. An IC can't join a formations unit until that unit exists. If that unit exists as part of a formation and does not include a particular IC in it's listing, then its special rules are already in place before the IC can join the unit and unless that units special rules specifically state by the rule itself that they are conferred (which in the case of deepstrike, they are not), then the IC cannot receive them.

So you are NOT treating the IC as a member of the unit for ALL rules purposes, despite the rules clearly directing you otherwise

Your argument is invalidated.

All rules purposes, but not all special rules which you are ignoring.
That unit has deepstrike before the IC joins. The fact that it receives that ability from the formation does not change the fact that it has it before that IC joins. Deepstrike is NOT comferred to a model without it. A unit may not deepstrike unless all models in the unit have deepstrike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I may be coming at this from the wrong angle. That unit gains deepstrike as a command benefit of the formation. Formations are very specific groupings of models and/or units and their command benefits apply only to those within the formation. That IC, while being able to join and leave whatever unit he wants is still an HQ using an HQ slot. A slot he does not have in that formation, & therefore doesn't receive any of the command benefits from the formation, except for those that are able to be conferred to another model, again which excludes deepstrike.

I was looking to do something similar with Grukks rippin crew before and came up against this same wall.

Kangodo wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
There is no such thing as "formation special rules"
the units in the formation get the special rules.
they are special rules.
your twisting of the RAW to create a false interpretation, is false.

But there is such a thing as special rules granted by the Formation.

The IC counts for part of the unit for all rules purposes except special rules as this is specifically stated. The special rules the IC has and the special rules the unit has have to specifically state that they transfer to other models in the unit even if they do not have the special rule as per stubborn. This is all specifically stated RAW

So you are saying that a Blessing that grants a Special Rule cannot effect an attached IC because that would "extend the special rule to the IC"?

you are absolutely wrong on this.
and you have nothing to back it up with RAW.

I just did. Maybe you'd like to buy a pair of glasses or learn to read?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your second assertion is false, as well. If I place an IC within the unit it counts as a member of that unit for all rules purposes. If the unit has a rule stating "this unit may deepstrike" then the IC can also deepstrike.

Exactly!
There is a difference between a Unit that has Deep Strike, which does not confer to the IC, and a rule that says "this unit may Deep Strike".

special rules granted by a formation are special rules, they are called out as special rules. stop cherry picking to make a false argument.

Which blessing grants a special rule? i see blessings that grant BLESSGINGS, don't see any of them that grant special rules. so you failed again. Please cite some blessing that grant special rules, then refer to said special rule then refer to the section on ICs joining squads which have special rules that I have already quoted. Good luck as you have failed to cite anything so far. Not even an accurate comparison and it shows you have a very poor grasp on the rules in genera and have not actually read the rules of the various sections which have been cited to you and discussed.

as you have not posted anything that support your 100% false RAW claim I accept your concession that you are wrong.

There is no such thing as "formation special rules"
the units in the formation get the special rules.
they are special rules.
your twisting of the RAW to create a false interpretation, is false.

But there is such a thing as special rules granted by the Formation.

The IC counts for part of the unit for all rules purposes except special rules as this is specifically stated. The special rules the IC has and the special rules the unit has have to specifically state that they transfer to other models in the unit even if they do not have the special rule as per stubborn. This is all specifically stated RAW

So you are saying that a Blessing that grants a Special Rule cannot effect an attached IC because that would "extend the special rule to the IC"?

you are absolutely wrong on this.
and you have nothing to back it up with RAW.

I just did. Maybe you'd like to buy a pair of glasses or learn to read?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your second assertion is false, as well. If I place an IC within the unit it counts as a member of that unit for all rules purposes. If the unit has a rule stating "this unit may deepstrike" then the IC can also deepstrike.

Exactly!
There is a difference between a Unit that has Deep Strike, which does not confer to the IC, and a rule that says "this unit may Deep Strike".

You guys have already covered the RAW hair-splitting pretty well, so I'll go a different route.

I wouldn't allow it. Formations are fixed sets of units. Adding ICs to a formation changes it significantly and breaks the spirit of the formation concept. Imagining myself to be GW and issuing a FAQ ruling, that is the basis on which I'd decide.

There is another ramification to this discussion. So we all agree the IC doesn't get the Special Rule *wink-wink*. But when an IC joins and the formation can no longer deepstrike round 1 like it "must" under the special rules, do I just get to bring the unit on any way I'd like? Including in vehicles, normal deployment etc. ?

 Booklooker wrote:
There is another ramification to this discussion. So we all agree the IC doesn't get the Special Rule *wink-wink*. But when an IC joins and the formation can no longer deepstrike round 1 like it "must" under the special rules, do I just get to bring the unit on any way I'd like? Including in vehicles, normal deployment etc. ?

I don't think they get to deploy at all. The unit leader and the IC end up arguing about how to deploy and miss the battle. Narrative Forged.

BadMoonMek that is the coolest ruling imaginable for this!


Just to stir it up a bit more, here is the rule from ICs joining units in reserve:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together.

And here is the Void Claw rule:

Spearhead Strike: All units from this Formation begin the game in Reserves, and must arrive by Deep Strike in their controlling player’s first turn.

So you could say that since the Void Claws "must" deepstrike first turn and the IC "must" arrive with them... they MUST arrive together during the first turn. Ouch.
That's not even sharing the Void Claw Special Rule. That's the reserve rules bringing him along on what is basically an auto roll for reserves round one.