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I'm trying to run my guard list in 7th for the first time and Paskisher is apparently the "go to" leman Russ anti tank option at this point. To hear my club-mates talk it sounds like he scores 3-4 glances on AV14 in a single round of shooting but I'm just not seeing how from his rules.

So the Gatling is St5. He gives it Rending, which means 1/3 of his sixes rolled will glance AV14. Add in the rerolls to pen and even if he hits 100% of the time I'm only seeing 1.5 glances average. How is that better than a Vanq where he's got around a 70% chance at an AP1 pen?

I can honestly say I've never considered Pask in a Punisher for anti-armor duty. I mean, AV 10 and 11 are probably decent targets for him, but I've never heard an argument saying that a Pask-Punisher is better at killing AV14 than a Vanquisher.

So...*shrug*?

Because he has rending AND tank hunter.

The math and in game shows how good he is at killing AV12/13

He's got 20 S5 Rending shots, add in a lascannon and MM sponsons and you can tackle anything.

BS4 and PE means he hits two thirds of his shots, rerolling half of all misses.

Tank Hunter on top of that.

Coupled with the ability to split fire with the rest of the squadron's tanks firing at something else.

Add in Prescience to the mix if desired

And can glance AV14 to death over a couple of rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...not counting hull LC and MM sponsons

Quick maths:

Average amount of hits with a bs4 punisher cannon with PE = 20 x ((2/3) + (1/6 x 2/3)) = 15.6 hits to 1d.p.

Average amounts of rends with tank hunter = 15.6 x ((1/6)+ (5/6 x1/6)) = 4.8 rends to 1d.p.

Against av12 that is 4.8 hit points lost.
Against av13 that is 3.2 hit points lost
Against av14 that is 1.6 hit points lost.

This is without counting two multimeltas (that synergize with the range of the punisher), and the lascannon.

Yes the vehicle may get a cover save. But a cover save effects the one shot vanquisher cannon far worse than the multishot punisher cannon.

Cast perfect timing on a punisher-pask and vanquisher combo (pask armed with mms and las and vanquisher armed with las for 405pts), and you have one of the best AT units in the game!


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Sorry - that would suggest without perfect timing they are not one of the best... they still are!

Such an over rated unit IMHO. But I've only faced it with Necrons. Always dealt with it. Never killed nothing.

If you could Scout it I could see it. But armour is so easy to deal with and it's such an obvious target.

I just played him in a tournament last weekend.

One turn he totally whiffed against AV13 with 15 hits, but every other time he shot in the tournament he took 6 HP off of something AV12 or greater per-turn with just the cannon.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the math personally.

Pask in a punisher outperforms the Vanquisher against every AV type. Here's the math:

Punisher Pask: AV10: 5 HP's removed, 37% chance to explode. AV12: 2.5 HP's removed, 27% chance to explode. AV14: 0.8 HP's removed, 0% chance to explode.

Vanquisher Pask: AV10: 0.7 HP's removed, 25% chance to explode. AV12: 0.7 HP's knocked off, 22% chance to explode. AV14: 0.5HP's knocked off, 15% chance to explode.

So, mathematically the Punisher strips more hullpoints and has a better chance to explode a vehicle than the Vanquisher on every level except for AV14, where the Vanquisher strips less hullpoints but has a higher chance to blow it up. Adding in a cover save makes the gap between the Vanquisher and the Punisher even worse (in the Punisher's favor).

The problem with your comparison is that you're not taking into consideration A) that the Vanquisher only has a single shot, and B) Pask is only BS4. Even with preferred enemy, those two factors dramatically lower his statistic chances of doing damage. And, even if you do hit, having a highly probably chance of scoring a pen doesn't mean much when the Vanquisher cannon, which is AP2, is only exploding vehicles on a six. So the vast majority of a time that the Vanquisher hits, he won't be one-shotting the vehicle, and because he only has a single shot, the only alternative to not blowing up the vehicle is stripping a single hullpoint- that's the maximum potential a Vanquisher has. Explodes, or a single hullpoint.

The only benefit to taking a Vanquisher is its range. You can spit out shots from turn 1 and hope for lucky rolls on the damage table, and it'll pretty much be in range to shoot at stuff for the entire game. It will take a turn longer for the Punisher to get in range, but once it does it'll wreck house.

Kholzerino wrote:
Such an over rated unit IMHO. But I've only faced it with Necrons. Always dealt with it. Never killed nothing.

If you could Scout it I could see it. But armour is so easy to deal with and it's such an obvious target.

You play necrons. Who have the best anti tank in the game. I do too.

-veitek with stormteks
-stormteks in warrior units in a scythe
-mass tesla destructors (can't deal with av14 admittedly)
-scarab swarms
-doom scythes
-armourbane st7 scythes everywhere
-PE rending wraiths
-the basic guns of your basic troopers

What I was going to say earlier is that if you don't play crons, Pask in a punisher is in the top 3 AT units in the game. Of course you don't have too much issue with an av14 tank - you're crons! 2 AV14 tanks (you have to get through his squad mate too), are NOT easy to deal with for most armies.
Especially not when you take into account the rest of the force.






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 More Dakka wrote:
I just played him in a tournament last weekend.

One turn he totally whiffed against AV13 with 15 hits, but every other time he shot in the tournament he took 6 HP off of something AV12 or greater per-turn with just the cannon.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the math personally.

The math in a probability based game is how you decide how good something is in a particular situation. Would you hit on a 19 in blackjack? If not, why not?


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Pask in a punisher outperforms the Vanquisher against every AV type. Here's the math:

Punisher Pask: AV10: 5 HP's removed, 37% chance to explode. AV12: 2.5 HP's removed, 27% chance to explode. AV14: 0.8 HP's removed, 0% chance to explode.

Vanquisher Pask: AV10: 0.7 HP's removed, 25% chance to explode. AV12: 0.7 HP's knocked off, 22% chance to explode. AV14: 0.5HP's knocked off, 15% chance to explode.

So, mathematically the Punisher strips more hullpoints and has a better chance to explode a vehicle than the Vanquisher on every level except for AV14, where the Vanquisher strips less hullpoints but has a higher chance to blow it up. Adding in a cover save makes the gap between the Vanquisher and the Punisher even worse (in the Punisher's favor).

The problem with your comparison is that you're not taking into consideration A) that the Vanquisher only has a single shot, and B) Pask is only BS4. Even with preferred enemy, those two factors dramatically lower his statistic chances of doing damage. And, even if you do hit, having a highly probably chance of scoring a pen doesn't mean much when the Vanquisher cannon, which is AP2, is only exploding vehicles on a six. So the vast majority of a time that the Vanquisher hits, he won't be one-shotting the vehicle, and because he only has a single shot, the only alternative to not blowing up the vehicle is stripping a single hullpoint- that's the maximum potential a Vanquisher has. Explodes, or a single hullpoint.

The only benefit to taking a Vanquisher is its range. You can spit out shots from turn 1 and hope for lucky rolls on the damage table, and it'll pretty much be in range to shoot at stuff for the entire game. It will take a turn longer for the Punisher to get in range, but once it does it'll wreck house.

Are you bringing a 4+ or so cover into your maths? If not I think you are forgetting tank hunter. I got 4.8hps for av12 and 1.6 for av14. I did it in two stages rather than an equation so it might be a decimal place off here and there due to rounding. Also av10 I work out to be 8.6hps. Just the punisher cannon.

With the change to the vehicle damage table, I can see the argument for the Vanquisher over the Punisher (in 6th, all the Vanq had in it's favor was range; now it also has the only chance to cause an explosion). I'm personally a bit of a chicken, so I like the Vanquisher a little bit more, even though I know very well that the Punisher is deadlier.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Are you bringing a 4+ or so cover into your maths? If not I think you are forgetting tank hunter. I got 4.8hps for av12 and 1.6 for av14. I did it in two stages rather than an equation so it might be a decimal place off here and there due to rounding. Also av10 I work out to be 8.6hps. Just the punisher cannon.

I forgot to factor in the re-rolls for pen, yeah.

Factoring in those makes the gap between the two vehicles even larger. ...adding cover saves makes that gap even larger.

 tomjoad wrote:
With the change to the vehicle damage table, I can see the argument for the Vanquisher over the Punisher (in 6th, all the Vanq had in it's favor was range; now it also has the only chance to cause an explosion). I'm personally a bit of a chicken, so I like the Vanquisher a little bit more, even though I know very well that the Punisher is deadlier.

I'd say the vehicle damage chart changes hurt the Vanquisher more than helped it. Yeah, it's made it so that the Vanquisher is the only weapon that can blow up a vehicle (sans sponsons), but that's in a meta where there's really no point in trying to blow up vehicles anymore. It's so much easier, and usually much more reliable, to just glance a vehicle to death.

The Vanquisher can't do that, and with its gun being AP2 it's only getting an explodes result on a 6.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
With the change to the vehicle damage table, I can see the argument for the Vanquisher over the Punisher (in 6th, all the Vanq had in it's favor was range; now it also has the only chance to cause an explosion). I'm personally a bit of a chicken, so I like the Vanquisher a little bit more, even though I know very well that the Punisher is deadlier.

I'd say the vehicle damage chart changes hurt the Vanquisher more than helped it. Yeah, it's made it so that the Vanquisher is the only weapon that can blow up a vehicle (sans sponsons), but that's in a meta where there's really no point in trying to blow up vehicles anymore. It's so much easier, and usually much more reliable, to just glance a vehicle to death.

The Vanquisher can't do that, and with its gun being AP2 it's only getting an explodes result on a 6.

The Punisher was MUCH better in 6th; because it can ONLY glance though, the Vanquisher has gotten a bit closer in 7th. That's all I was saying with regard to that.

However, the bigger thing in favor of the Vanq is the 48" range difference. Having to be within 24" of the enemy is a legit concern, and since Pask will need to be your warlord to get PE, that makes losing him even more dangerous. I'm not say one is better than the other, I'm just saying that the Punisher is not CLEARLY superior.

I don't really see how it was better in 6th. Yeah, it could pen in 6th edition, but at strength 5 what was it able to pen? Av10 and 11? Even if you didn't pen those, you were going to glance them to death on average anyway.

The standard punisher is cheaper now than it was in the previous codex, and Pask gives it rending now, which he didn't in 6th, and that allows it threaten every type of vehicle. The Punisher has only gotten better in 7th imo. Losing the ability to pen AV10 and AV11 isn't really much of a loss.

Well, it can pen AV10-13, and it can no longer Explode those vehicles one time out of six, so....yeah, that is slightly worse than it was before.

It couldn't pen AV12-13 before. It couldn't even glance AV12 and AV13 in the last codex.

It can only do that now because Pask gives it rending. The best it could do in the previous edition was glance and pen AV10 and AV11.

I see. There was an overlap of a couple months with the new codex and 6th ed though, which is clearly what I'm referring to.

Anyway, my point is the range, so whatever to all of this.

Uh, okay. lol

The thing that makes Pask in the punisher better is that once you've blown up the enemy's heavy vehicle he can turn around and rip up infantry squads just as well. He gets versatility at the cost of range.

Range is the big drawback to the Pask Punisher, but in many cases the enemy will be closing on you regardless.

I think the major weakness is that you're paying 240 for the optimal load out (2x MM and LC) and a lot of the prime targets are going to be much less points than that. The next element is that you're forced to take a 2nd tank for his squad. The most optimal tank being the Executioner, because running one of these without Preferred Enemy is just not worth it by a wide margin.

@ Poly Ranger, don't cluck at me about probability. When it counts in this instance you're rolling 20 dice over 3-5 turns. The number of times I've gotten better than average rolls outnumber the times I've gotten worse. Probability comes into play when you run at least 1000 samples, but those couple of times where it actually counts are all that matters.

I play games and make my decisions based on the performance of the units I run. I've put Pask through his paces and found him worth while as not only anti-tank but anti-everything. He has better and worse targets, but overall you can count on him to knock out a unit in a clutch situation when you really need him to.

While it's true that probability isn't worth a whole lot with a relatively small sample-size, that doesn't suddenly make anecdotes not useless in a discussion. Probability is the closest we can get to objectivity on a unit's performance.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/594765.page

I made a spreed sheet and had an entire thread about this a while back. Some of the conclusions are a bit different due to the explodes results but the spreed sheet has been updated to 7ed.

Pasknisher is the killiest tank all-around thanks to the ammount of shots and rending. MM sponsons and a lazcannon loadout allow it to reliably down any vehicle, hurt flyers and deal with any type of infantry. The only drawback is range. But come on, you can't get everything...unless you play eldar.
Before the update, i used an exterminator tank with Pask as an allied dakkatank for my orkses. And he did the job way better than lootas. When the new ig codex arrived, pasknisher was the new 'star'. Pasknisher + Eradicator have been doing great in the late 6-th ed for me. Now that IG are not at the good state of relationship with orkses (new allied matrix), even with the blood axes, i had to stop using this effective combo. Luckily, orkses now have playable rokkitspam to do the job. But it's not nearly as effective.

 More Dakka wrote:
Range is the big drawback to the Pask Punisher, but in many cases the enemy will be closing on you regardless.

I think the major weakness is that you're paying 240 for the optimal load out (2x MM and LC) and a lot of the prime targets are going to be much less points than that. The next element is that you're forced to take a 2nd tank for his squad. The most optimal tank being the Executioner, because running one of these without Preferred Enemy is just not worth it by a wide margin.

@ Poly Ranger, don't cluck at me about probability. When it counts in this instance you're rolling 20 dice over 3-5 turns. The number of times I've gotten better than average rolls outnumber the times I've gotten worse. Probability comes into play when you run at least 1000 samples, but those couple of times where it actually counts are all that matters.

I play games and make my decisions based on the performance of the units I run. I've put Pask through his paces and found him worth while as not only anti-tank but anti-everything. He has better and worse targets, but overall you can count on him to knock out a unit in a clutch situation when you really need him to.

The reason we use probability is to be as objective as possible when discussing units. Anything else is subjective - that's fact. Whilst it may be a small sample size, you can still calculate around what it should be doing on average each turn. Im not saying it will give you a precise amount and im not saying it may not be way off now and again when using a small sample size. The thing is though -this is the average, so you CAN and SHOULD prepare your decisions around it.
Probability is more accurate with more samples. You are correct. But you can still use it to make decisions with small samples. Take the following:
If somebody made a bet with me and my friend about tossing a coin 2 times, I could bet it would be heads twice, tails twice, or different each time. Each person has to pick a different one and I get to pick first. I would bet that it would be different each time because that gives me a 50% chance. Only has a sample size of 1, so I may well lose the bet, but I can use probability to judge my best chance.
It is a game heavily involving probability and chance, it is wise to know the raw mathmatical capabilities of your units (roughly), to make the most well informed tactical decisions. Every great historical general desired as much information as possible (scouts, spies etc) to help them make the best decisions.

We both agree to the effectiveness of Pask though.

The thing people forget about probability is that averages aren't everything. A tank with a high chance to blow something up with a single amazing shot is nice, but if it misses you get nothing, If someone like Pask with 20 shots kills a thing on average, the chance that he will do nothing to it is basically 0. Larger number of shots will reliably be closer to their average.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm trying to run my guard list in 7th for the first time and Paskisher is apparently the "go to" leman Russ anti tank option at this point. To hear my club-mates talk it sounds like he scores 3-4 glances on AV14 in a single round of shooting but I'm just not seeing how from his rules.

So the Gatling is St5. He gives it Rending, which means 1/3 of his sixes rolled will glance AV14. Add in the rerolls to pen and even if he hits 100% of the time I'm only seeing 1.5 glances average. How is that better than a Vanq where he's got around a 70% chance at an AP1 pen?

Vanqs are Ap2.

Paskisher can multi-role though.