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Hi Dakka,

I'm starting a new Necron army and I play beerhammer with a friend of mine who is also starting a new Ork army. We have 40k experience with other armies so we're not new to the game. We've played a couple of games with these new armies and what I've noticed so far is the sheer volume of boyz etc that he's able to bring to the table. I can kill specific units easily enough, but certainly not all of them before he gets somebody into close combat. Are there any good Necron strategies for countering this brand of Green Attrition??

This is what I own so far:

- Necron Overlord
- Destroyer Lord

-20 x Warriors
-10 x Immortals

-3 x Canoptek Wraiths
-7 x Canoptek Scarabs
-3 x Destroyers

- Monolith
- Annhilation Barge (magnetized for command barge option)

I'm planning to buy a battleforce to increase the troops for more Gauss/Tesla goodness, and I'm not sure where to go from there. Maybe Night/Doom Scythe, Triarch Stalker, and another annihilation barge? Tomb Blades?

He has 60 boyz, 3 Warbikes, 1 Battlewagon, 1 Deff Dred, 2 Trukks, 3 Scorcha Trakks, Tank bustaz, Lootaz, a big 2+ warboss, gretchins in the backfield and a couple other units I don't remember.
Do you guys have any suggestions on strategies against the Green Tide, or what I should buy next that would serve me well? Should I field large units of 20 warriors for increased firepower, or smaller units so that they don't get bogged down in combat? Should I try shoot and run tactics? I feel like that could be countered by a WAAAAGH!! I like the idea of a Ghost ark with 9 warriors and a harbinger of the storm to broadside various units .

I'd appreciate the help

For generic advice, Annihilation Barges, Ghost Arks and Night Scythes are all great. You want as many ABs as possible, fill up the GAs with warriors, and bring in the Tesla Immortals via NS. Triarch Stalkers and Tomb Blades are not so great.

It really depends on how you want to play your army. If you want to stop a green tide with close combat you can go get a load more wraiths and an additional D-Lord, form two units of 5-6 wraiths + D-Lord each, and then charge them into the Orks when they hit the mid-table. If you want to shoot them down then buy lots of vehicles and make sure everyone is mounted up inside behind AV13 protection. If you really want to avoid getting assaulted then bring lots of flyers.

Keep in mind that Necrons have outstanding maneuverability. You should be able to control the board. Relying on foot-slogging warrior blobs in your deployment zone is putting yourself at a big disadvantage.

While Orks got buffed in this area - they still have a lot of issues in destroying vehicles in the shooting phase. Loading Warriors in Ghost Arks will give you a start on defending against them. AV13 is hard for most army - especially orks who's shooting is mostly S8 AP3 (so low risk of explosion). In the event that they assault an ark, only a Nob can hurt AV11 (usually with a powerklaw) so it may not be destroyed on the initial round of assault. Whether the ark is destroyed in assault or not, the unit inside will most likely live to to shoot the horde at close range.

Depending on the Ork player, Tesla works great against them. I say "depending on the player" since there are 2 types of Ork players coming out. 1 is more traditional and sees strength in numbers and will spend a lot on boyz with no upgrades. The other mentality out there is about the quality of the boy - that the 4pts for 'eavy armor (4+ save) is worthwhile. If you find yourself against a quantity player, tesla will rip through them.

One other thing that hurts orks are Scarabs - especially when paired with Zhandrekh. Scarabs are great at vehicles but they also are fast enough to assault the orks before the orks get their own charge off. Preventing the Orks getting Furious Charge is huge - Charging them is a great way of managing this as well as just removing it from a unit with Zahndrekh.

So recommendations:
- More Ghost Arks
- More Scarabs
- Zahndrekh

Tesla Immortals, Annnihilation Barges, and Night Scyhes work good against Hordes....basically any Tesla you got is good to bring out since it spawns more hits, and Orks weak armor save mean those extra hits are going to be effective.

Also, Imotek's storm rule works purty good against horde armies with bad armor saves.

Zhandrekh is great indeed.
Without Furious Charge those Ork Boyz are suddenly S3

You have a Monolith and I would definitely use that.
Your opponent doesn't seem to have much against AV14 and you can drop a Large Blast every turn.

Tomb Blades are very fast and are useful for taking Objectives.
Tesla is your friend unless he equips them with 4+ armour.
Scarabs are a great way to keep them busy for far too long, though the Dark Harvest-scarabs would be better against Orks but they'd lose the ability to eat up tanks.

Hi guys! Thanks for all the awesome advice!!! I like all of these ideas

I find it amazing how versatile this army can be! I can't believe I didn't notice how mobile I can make them... don't have the units to make them mobile yet tho.

Sounds like I should get the battleforce, another Annihilation Barge, Night Scythe, Wraiths, and maybe some tomb blades (3 particle beamers for 90pts sounds like a great nuisance agaisnt 6+ hordes, and they can contest objectives late in the game, if they live)

Zahndrekh sounds like an awesome asset against orks. What would be the best way to keep him protected? Should I run him with a unit of Lychguard & Obyron or something? I heard he can't take the command barge now with the 7th edition. :/

You can dump the Nemesor Z in a Ghost Ark for some protection.

He's not really shooty, and he's no good in CC either, so might as well hide him somewhere...just my 2 cents

P.S. You're correct about the Zandrekh and the CCB. No idea why they decided to do that, but they did it.

 jasper76 wrote:
You can dump the Nemesor Z in a Ghost Ark for some protection.

Bad idea, Zahndrekh needs to be on the table to have LoS to enemy units for 'Tactics'.

Pretty much what's been said though. With the exception of Tesla Immortals in Nightscythes. Just start them on the table.

Zahndrekh belongs in a Warrior blob or a Royal Court.

 Akar wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
You can dump the Nemesor Z in a Ghost Ark for some protection.

Bad idea, Zahndrekh needs to be on the table to have LoS to enemy units for 'Tactics'.

Pretty much what's been said though. With the exception of Tesla Immortals in Nightscythes. Just start them on the table.

Is that right? All this time I figured he could draw line of sight anywhere from the Ark because its open-topped. Ah, GW, how I love your crystal-clear rules.

I'll agree that is how it should be played and that most friendly games will allow it. As it's not a shooting attack, it isn't covered by the open topped rule.

Zhandrekh can be in a Ghost Ark as "line of sight" while embarked is measured from an access point last i checked. In the case of a ghost ark - anywhere from the hull.

I could be wrong (need to look it up again) but i'm 99% certain you can do LoS stuff form transports otherwise you couldn't shoot (which needs LoS) nor Maledictions/witchfire abilities from them.

 Akar wrote:
With the exception of Tesla Immortals in Nightscythes. Just start them on the table.

Dropping Tesla Immortals in the opponents back field vs units with poor armour saves is amazing. You can take a maelstrom objective, shoot up something vulnerable, and force your opponent to turn one of their cc units around to deal with them in one turn. Great for delivering Crypteks into range too.

Again I agree that he should be able to, but haven't found any rule to support it.

No need to say much here since this is a tactics thread. I know most TOs will/have ruled that he can't use one or both if in a transport. It's an argument that has been around since it first came up with Anrakyr in a CCB. The OP is really going to have to make up his own mind, but if we are next in line for a book, its not worth the debate.

Since this is a tactics thread, He'll probably save a lot of headache if he just puts him on the board. I think he'll find a good majority of players cool with it, but my intent in mentioning it is that there will be players who won't allow it. It's not one of those grey areas where a dice roll will resolve it, since there are more rules preventing him from doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tekron wrote:
Dropping Tesla Immortals in the opponents back field vs units with poor armour saves is amazing. You can take a maelstrom objective, shoot up something vulnerable, and force your opponent to turn one of their cc units around to deal with them in one turn. Great for delivering Crypteks into range too.

Without turning this into another 'Gauss vs. Tesla' debate, I sit firmly in the 'Why would I ever take Tesla' camp of Cron players. I'm not opposed to Tesla as they clearly outshine Gauss at ranges greater than 12". Yes I've seen the numbers, and it's close call and hugely dependent on what you're shooting about which is better inside of 12". For most players who are asking for advice, Tesla starts on the Table, Gauss in the Nightscythes.

Personally, I've never had a game where I wished I'd had Tesla, and even when I start my immortals on the board, it's still Gauss. I don't recommend it often either. Only Tesla I still run is on the NIghtscythes, and the ABarges. Still not impressed with em. It's my personal experience, and not trying to prove I'm right or someone else is wrong. If you like em, great.

 Akar wrote:
but if we are next in line for a book, its not worth the debate.

What makes you say we're next in line?
(genuine question)

Also, Tesla Immortals are excellent when paired with a Veil.
You can drop far enough to avoid scatter mishap and out of range of CC retaliation.

 Akar wrote:

Without turning this into another 'Gauss vs. Tesla' debate, I sit firmly in the 'Why would I ever take Tesla' camp of Cron players. I'm not opposed to Tesla as they clearly outshine Gauss at ranges greater than 12". Yes I've seen the numbers, and it's close call and hugely dependent on what you're shooting about which is better inside of 12". For most players who are asking for advice, Tesla starts on the Table, Gauss in the Nightscythes.

Personally, I've never had a game where I wished I'd had Tesla, and even when I start my immortals on the board, it's still Gauss. I don't recommend it often either. Only Tesla I still run is on the NIghtscythes, and the ABarges. Still not impressed with em. It's my personal experience, and not trying to prove I'm right or someone else is wrong. If you like em, great.

OP is asking about Orks in this case, which means 6+ saves all over the place. When dealing with Lootas and Mek Gunz and other Ork units in the backfield, Tesla is excellent. Especially when sitting on an objective back there.

@Skoffs
Just the rumor mill is leaning that way. Codex Necrons being pulled from the GW site. (Yes, it's still there if you do a direct search but it doesn't show up when General browsing)

I'll agree with the Veil in a Tesla-Immortal squad. Very handy to have, but again you're starting on the board so you can get them where you need them. I'll never do it, but that's a personal choice. I think it's best to keep away as long as possible to really maximize the advantages of Tesla. I had the most success with them running a Tremortek with Crucible, than with any other. Then I just stopped running them altogether.

@Tekron
Yes I'm aware that he said Orks. Tesla off the table, even for a turn, is a very bad idea in most games. Especially vs. Orks. Only time I could see recommending it is if you're playing a Hammer and Anvil game. You're not going to know that before writing the list, and it's nice to have. In the other 2/3 deployments, I'd still recommend that you start the Tesla on the board and run the NS empty. Since it's the minority though, there are better setups.

Orks now are harder to fight as a Necron than before. They are amazingly fast, even with a Footslogging force. Those 10 Teslas are going to be better on the board to inflict as much damage as possible. Even if he runs a mech list, you're going to want to have them on the board to shoot the guys inside after blowing up battle wagons.

 Akar wrote:
@Skoffs
Just the rumor mill is leaning that way. Codex Necrons being pulled from the GW site. (Yes, it's still there if you do a direct search but it doesn't show up when General browsing)

But, it wasn't "pulled", it's been that way for months. I remember someone posting about not being able to find it before 7th dropped. Someone else immediately started claiming "THAT MEANS NEW CODEX!!1!", but then another person came along to post a link to the physical copy, thus shutting down those rumors.
That fact that it has not actually been removed suggests it's more likely a case of the people running the online store being idiots.

Hence why I put the 'if' in there. I don't know who is next and I'm happy to wait since I'm still figuring out my Ork army. I think we need it more than DE. That's all OT, but if we are next, then there is no use arguing over it now.

Cool, well thanks for all the input guys!!

Yeah I've taken note of the Ork buffs in the 7th and I'll definitely be keeping as many guns on the table at the start as I can. Then I'll decide whether its good to move people behind enemy lines. My friend is certainly a fan of the huge 30 boy mobs, so most of my firepower will be directed at them. He seems curious about running 'ard boyz too, so I'm definitely gonna be focusing on that horde...

As far as Tesla, I ran the immortals last time with Tesla and they did fairly decent, what with the extra wounds in the two shooting phases they got before being assaulted. Im going to try Gauss this time and compare them. The problem I see with gauss is that once theyre in rapid fire range, theyre also in charge range, so It ruins the potential. Also, I originally thought that gauss would have a better overwatch with double the shots, but since its snap, only 3 1/3 hit, whereas with tesla if i roll 2 6's in overwatch, I get 6 hits! which is a solid 5 dead, vs not quite 3 for gauss. Idk it's a close call and I don't want to open the gauss vs tesla debate either... but I'll test them out I modelled them with Tesla cuz the gun looks super cool! In my opinion.

Do you guys have any advice for running Crypteks? It seems like Harbinger of the Storm is super useful against vehicles, so maybe I could attach him to warriors and glance his Battlewagon/Deff Dred to death ASAP. Are there any other reasonably good ones? It seems like they would be more useful against other armies than Orks, such as Tyranids, SM etc. Any thoughts? Thanks again for the advice!

Blobs of 30 Boyz are always scary.
In my experience Praetorians and Lychguard are quite good against them if you get the Assault on him.
20 Boyz, 60 attacks, 30 hits, 5 wounds and 1 or 2 unsaved.
But they are actually too expensive to waste on Boyz.

Don't be afraid to start the Tesla vs Gauss-discussion, it's quite easy if we have an army to compare it against.
Against Orks Tesla is really strong in the 12-24" range and on overwatch.
But if he takes 'eavy armour you would do better with Gauss.

Crypteks? I think all Crypteks are really good against Orks.
Harbinger of Transmogrification: Making sure they charge D3+2" less than normal.
That brings the average charge-range from 7" to 2". I'm sure you'll know how to apply that It's also a S4 Blast.
Harbinger of Despair: What's better than fearing enemies? Fearing them when they have Ld7 and a Mob Rule that hurts them even more!
The staff wounds on a 3+ and has AP1, which is good. Nightmare Shroud can put out a lot of pain when they get close.
Harbinger of the Storm: I like this one since my Ork-opponent plays a lot of Nobz, with S8 he loses quite a few of them in the attack.
Harbinger of Destruction: Gaze of Flame 'steals' 30 attacks on a Boyz-blob, combine this with Zahndrekh to also take away his Furious Charge and use his Eldritch Lance to kill Trukks.

For 'ard boyz gauss is the correct choice no question.

Destructeks are good against mega nobz.
And don't forget you can run crypteks without upgrades if you like. The staff of light is quite decent for the points if you are trying to get in gauss rapid fire range anyway. Especially from a ghost ark.

Kangodo wrote:
Harbinger of Transmogrification: Making sure they charge D3+2" less than normal.
That brings the average charge-range from 7" to 2". I'm sure you'll know how to apply that It's also a S4 Blast.

Where are you getting the +2 from? Being in terrain?

Yes, difficult terrain because of the Quake attack.

Kangodo wrote:
Blobs of 30 Boyz are always scary.
In my experience Praetorians and Lychguard are quite good against them if you get the Assault on him.
20 Boyz, 60 attacks, 30 hits, 5 wounds and 1 or 2 unsaved.
But they are actually too expensive to waste on Boyz.

Don't be afraid to start the Tesla vs Gauss-discussion, it's quite easy if we have an army to compare it against.
Against Orks Tesla is really strong in the 12-24" range and on overwatch.
But if he takes 'eavy armour you would do better with Gauss.

As an ork player, I'd advice using gauss over tesla. While tesla greates a bunch of extra hits on disembarked and charging boyz, gauss is pretty much the only reliable way to stop a battlewagon. In my experience, if any mob from a battlewagon connects with a necron unit, it usually dies. Taking out one or two early provides you with an additional shooting phase for units which tend to cause a lot more damage than additional tesla hits. If you know for sure that your opponent won't bring any, that argument is void, of course.

Crypteks? I think all Crypteks are really good against Orks.
Harbinger of Transmogrification: Making sure they charge D3+2" less than normal.
That brings the average charge-range from 7" to 2". I'm sure you'll know how to apply that It's also a S4 Blast.

Keep in mind that orks have 'ere we go, so that average is higher than you might think. The crucible is a pain in the rear, but hasn't made me fail a charge yet, especially not during a Waaagh!. This cryptec's true power is delaying orks while they are moving up the field, and delays are very valuable for an army that prefers shooting over close combat. Two or three of those with no further upgrades can slow down footslogging orks quite a bit.

Harbinger of Despair: What's better than fearing enemies? Fearing them when they have Ld7 and a Mob Rule that hurts them even more!
The staff wounds on a 3+ and has AP1, which is good. Nightmare Shroud can put out a lot of pain when they get close.

Nightmare shroud has a 40% chance of causing 1D6 S4 wounds, and the flamer is somewhat bad if a warboss is in the target unit (or one with the Inspiring Presence warlord trait is nearby), plus you cannot use both. Not bad, but not a real counter to orks, might as well save yourself the points.

Harbinger of the Storm: I like this one since my Ork-opponent plays a lot of Nobz, with S8 he loses quite a few of them in the attack.

For handling nobz, lords with mindshackle scarabs do that quite well, and you can have them everywhere. 3d6 on LD7 is all but impossible, and a pk nob/MAN punching his pals with a PK will pretty much end the unit.

Harbinger of Destruction: Gaze of Flame 'steals' 30 attacks on a Boyz-blob, combine this with Zahndrekh to also take away his Furious Charge and use his Eldritch Lance to kill Trukks.

Stealing 30 attacks from a boyz mob before getting murdered by the remaining 90 attacks isn't actually that great a feat. I've never faced Zahndrekh, but he looks pretty scary, counter-attack on your unit and losing FC on the ork unit is no joke. He seems to be missing a close combat weapon though, so you might want to keep him away from your opponent's warboss or MANz units.

That is true, Gauss is really good against Battle Wagons.
But they also have 4HP, so my advice would be to battle those with 20 Warriors.

Transmog: Completely forgot that rule. But D3+2" less is still 4" less than normal.
And with 36" you can slow them down a bit.
Combine all of that and it might mean that at least one unit takes one turn longer to reach you, which means you have more Tesla to unleash upon them.

Mindshackle can be good, but it also requires a Lord/Overlord that has to spend quite some points and will still die when being charged.

Destro-teks are always nice to have with their Lance, the Gaze of Flame is just a nice little bonus.
Zahndrekh doesn't need to be IN the fight to use his abilities, he's done wonders against many lists.

Remember! None of these are hard-counters and they shouldn't be, because they are too cheap for that.
But it are all little stings that can hurt them quite badly.

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, difficult terrain because of the Quake attack.

It's not that good, read 'Quake' again and you'll see what phase it works in. It has no effect on the assault move.

Good to know about the Crypteks thanks guys!!

So I don't know if I should start another thread for this, but I got an Idea of what he's gonna run against me in the next battle and I thought I'd ask for your advice again. We decided to do 1300 points. Based on the new boxes of boys he bought, he's probably gonna run
- 3 x 30 boy mobs!
- Flash gits with his 2+ warboss in a Trukk
- tank bustaz in a Trukk
Then maybe..
- skorcha trakk or two or
- Deff Dred or
- 3 x Warbikes

The part that scared me the most is the 3 30 boy mobs!! I doubt with the actual necron models I have, that I could even build a list to take on those 3 mobs alone lol. So I'm gonna proxy to make this list:

HQ
-Illuminator Szeras

Troops
-10 x Warriors
-10 x Warriors
-10 x Warriors
-10 x Warriors
-10 x Tesla Immortals

Fast Attack
-6 x Wraiths w/ Particle Casters
-3 x Tomb Blades w/ Particle Beamers
-3 x Tomb Blades w/ Particle Beamers

Heavy Support
-Annihilation Barge

I wanted to get as many metal bodies on the table as I could. The tomb blades w/ beamers will statistically do pretty well against 30 boy mobs, and the wraiths will demolish in close combat with anything he can take. Illuminator sceraz just seemed like the cheapest HQ I could take without taking away points from other units, cuz it's only one VP if I lose him, and I'd rather have fast things that can take/contest objectives instead. I just feel like I cant do much with the 1300 points considering what he's taking :/. Maybe I could get rid of a squad or two of warriors and run a Monolith, but if he has Power Klaws in the 30 boy mobs, then that kinda screws that plan up. Idk, any suggestions? We're both cool with proxying whatever, so anything could be taken. Thanks again for the help, and let me know if I should move this to a new thread in the list section instead .

Wow, if you take that list, he is going to mop the floor with you.
Seriously.
That's not even remotely a good idea.

What models/vehicles do you have available to use?

The answer to an ork list like that is to get as many metal bodies off the table as possible, not on it.

You can get a lot for 1300 points of Necrons. For example 3 ABs, 2 NS, 2 kitted out d-lord wraith stars.

Fun way of dealing with ork boy blobs is to buy 3 tremorteks to shoot one blob each per turn. Then the boyz are moving through difficult terrain in their movement phase. Buy a c'tan shard with writhing worldscape and they treat all difficult terrain as dangerous.