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Hey guys, I was rather surprised when I used a blob of Tomb Guard for the first time, and actually ended up tabling my girlfriend (First game I've won with TK). I had a good first run with them, but I'm curious as to what other people do with Tomb Guard, like what else do you add to their unit, things like that.

I had 20 of them with HW/S accompanied by a Tomb Prince and a Necrotect. Is a Tomb Herald worth adding to them? If so, what banner is worth taking?

Tomb Guard are fantastic. I always run mine with the halberds since most of my opponents have a lot of T4. I also opt for the banner of the undying legion on the unit standard bearer. If you want to add a BSB herald I'd suggest either the razor standard, war banner (i think that's what its called, +1 combat res) or the +1 movement banner. Keep in mind though all those characters in one unit is very eggs in one basket. If one of those blast template test or die spells hits them they could all be, for lack of less meaningful term, boned.

 Opeth30 wrote:
Tomb Guard are fantastic. I always run mine with the halberds since most of my opponents have a lot of T4. I also opt for the banner of the undying legion on the unit standard bearer. If you want to add a BSB herald I'd suggest either the razor standard, war banner (i think that's what its called, +1 combat res) or the +1 movement banner. Keep in mind though all those characters in one unit is very eggs in one basket. If one of those blast template test or die spells hits them they could all be, for lack of less meaningful term, boned.

I see. Halberds are cool, but I don't like the penalty to your armor and no parry save in close combat. And I figured I could just use either Soulblight or desiccation to lower their toughness anyway. And I had heard people use the Razor standard, but the Undying Legion would be nice as well. And in all honest, if someone is sitting there casting large purple sons all day, A. There's nothing you can really do anyway and B. They're probably not someone you wanna play with.

About the closest thing TK can have to a deathstar:
-Tomb king with DoE and OTS (WS6 + HKB + Reroll Ward)
-Tomb Herald with as good an AS as you can get + flail
-Rhamotep (for frenzy and hatred)
-30+ TG, with Halberds and Razor (Dont bother with BoUL, as all the augment spells are enough to heal, no need for that expensive banner)
(works brilliantly with Loght and Nehek)

In Horde you are neting:
35x WS6, S5, Killing Blow and AP attacks from the TG
5 WS6, S7 HKB AP attacks from the King
4 WS6, S6 KB AP attacks from the Herald
4 WS6, S4 AP attacks from the Necrotect

all of which reroll to hit.

Downsides are lack of armour save, and initiative, hence why works with Light quite nicely...

When I play competitively I leave my Tomb Guard in a box to the side. T4 5+ infantry just don't cut it. Pouring characters into a unit doesn't do make them powerful. It just makes them a crutch.

When I play fluffily (Read:Not a strong list) I take 30-40 with a Prince, Ramhotep, and light buffs.

TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

Well, if you want to blow 1200 point in 1 unit, I'd rather have 86 Tomb Guard, full command, razorbanner.
No loss of killing power for several rounds, and put down enough hurt.
But really, if you're basing an army around a single Tomb Guard deathstar, you're doing it wrong. It should be a Grave Guard death star. You get heavy armor for the same cost, and heavy armor and great weapon for a point cheaper. Buffs and replacing losses in the unit both being easier for VC (along with... Marching!).

18 knights might work well for being a TK unit, but those snakes are pretty sub-par for monstrous infantry/cav.
For less points, you could have 30 Crypt Horrors, or 20 beasts of nurgle.



-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

Well, if you want to blow 1200 point in 1 unit, I'd rather have 86 Tomb Guard, full command, razorbanner.
No loss of killing power for several rounds, and put down enough hurt.
But really, if you're basing an army around a single Tomb Guard deathstar, you're doing it wrong. It should be a Grave Guard death star. You get heavy armor for the same cost, and heavy armor and great weapon for a point cheaper. Buffs and replacing losses in the unit both being easier for VC (along with... Marching!).

18 knights might work well for being a TK unit, but those snakes are pretty sub-par for monstrous infantry/cav.
For less points, you could have 30 Crypt Horrors, or 20 beasts of nurgle.



-Matt

It's not 1 unit.

I never said it was. It's three units of 6.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

Well, if you want to blow 1200 point in 1 unit, I'd rather have 86 Tomb Guard, full command, razorbanner.
No loss of killing power for several rounds, and put down enough hurt.
But really, if you're basing an army around a single Tomb Guard deathstar, you're doing it wrong. It should be a Grave Guard death star. You get heavy armor for the same cost, and heavy armor and great weapon for a point cheaper. Buffs and replacing losses in the unit both being easier for VC (along with... Marching!).

18 knights might work well for being a TK unit, but those snakes are pretty sub-par for monstrous infantry/cav.
For less points, you could have 30 Crypt Horrors, or 20 beasts of nurgle.



-Matt

Well, that comes back to every other army doing what TK do but better. I dislike VC very strongly, and therefor don't really care that their stuff is better and cheaper. My main thing was I like Tomb Guard, and would like to run a 20+ unit of them, supported by maybe some Animated Constructs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

If I was playing Competitively, I wouldn't be playing TK. I play them because of the versatility and the fluff behind everything. But yes, I do want to run at least 6 knights in high points games, since I mean, come on, Snake riders....

 krodarklorr wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

Well, if you want to blow 1200 point in 1 unit, I'd rather have 86 Tomb Guard, full command, razorbanner.
No loss of killing power for several rounds, and put down enough hurt.
But really, if you're basing an army around a single Tomb Guard deathstar, you're doing it wrong. It should be a Grave Guard death star. You get heavy armor for the same cost, and heavy armor and great weapon for a point cheaper. Buffs and replacing losses in the unit both being easier for VC (along with... Marching!).

18 knights might work well for being a TK unit, but those snakes are pretty sub-par for monstrous infantry/cav.
For less points, you could have 30 Crypt Horrors, or 20 beasts of nurgle.



-Matt

Well, that comes back to every other army doing what TK do but better. I dislike VC very strongly, and therefor don't really care that their stuff is better and cheaper. My main thing was I like Tomb Guard, and would like to run a 20+ unit of them, supported by maybe some Animated Constructs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
TDA, fluffy doesnt always mean weak, or no strong lists.

and actually, it kind of does make the unit powerful in this case.
What else would you call increasing weapon skill, or adding in +1 attack, or Hatred?
granted, it doesnt make the unit any tougher, or more able to take a beating

Still, 90% of the time, you're better off with 2 units of 4-6 Necro Knights

Fluffy lists are generally weaker than lists designed to be strong.

It's why the 18 knight list works so well.

If I was playing Competitively, I wouldn't be playing TK. I play them because of the versatility and the fluff behind everything. But yes, I do want to run at least 6 knights in high points games, since I mean, come on, Snake riders....

But TK can be one of the most devastating armies in a competitive environment, the comp forgiving. In an uncomped environment, my TK just ruin things, simply due to the army being awesome.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But TK can be one of the most devastating armies in a competitive environment, the comp forgiving. In an uncomped environment, my TK just ruin things, simply due to the army being awesome.

I mean, yeah they're awesome, but I never thought of them as competitive. I've heard so much hate on them, and unless you cheese the hell out of them, they're not THAT great.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But TK can be one of the most devastating armies in a competitive environment, the comp forgiving. In an uncomped environment, my TK just ruin things, simply due to the army being awesome.

I mean, yeah they're awesome, but I never thought of them as competitive. I've heard so much hate on them, and unless you cheese the hell out of them, they're not THAT great.

Nah. They're a balanced book. Not like WoC levels of balance, or Dark Elf levels of bad and exploitative writing, but a solid book.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But TK can be one of the most devastating armies in a competitive environment, the comp forgiving. In an uncomped environment, my TK just ruin things, simply due to the army being awesome.

I mean, yeah they're awesome, but I never thought of them as competitive. I've heard so much hate on them, and unless you cheese the hell out of them, they're not THAT great.

Nah. They're a balanced book. Not like WoC levels of balance, or Dark Elf levels of bad and exploitative writing, but a solid book.

Oh I completely agree. They have very good internal balance, and you have versatility to build whatever list you want and still have it work.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


It's not 1 unit.

I never said it was. It's three units of 6.

3 units of 6 is 1170 points. That's 3 command models split between 3 units at 2400.
It's also only 25% in lords, heroes and rares.
3 units of 6 is pretty terrible; it leaves you extremely short on characters and rares, once you've filled the minimum core.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


It's not 1 unit.

I never said it was. It's three units of 6.

3 units of 6 is 1170 points. That's 3 command models split between 3 units at 2400.
It's also only 25% in lords, heroes and rares.
3 units of 6 is pretty terrible; it leaves you extremely short on characters and rares, once you've filled the minimum core.

You need three naked level ones, a level 4 nehek and a level 3 light. With 600 points of archers, it works.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, yeah they're awesome, but I never thought of them as competitive. I've heard so much hate on them, and unless you cheese the hell out of them, they're not THAT great.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Oh I completely agree. They have very good internal balance, and you have versatility to build whatever list you want and still have it work.

I think that's the opposite of thedarkavenger's stance, from what I'm reading.
There is a very specific way to play Tomb Kings that leads to them being incredibly competitive. They are not flexible. They shoot and magic things into oblivion.

The Knights are pretty sweet; they pack a lot of attacks into a pretty small area.
I wish the Stalkers were better, because I think those models look even better.

Warpsolution wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I mean, yeah they're awesome, but I never thought of them as competitive. I've heard so much hate on them, and unless you cheese the hell out of them, they're not THAT great.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Oh I completely agree. They have very good internal balance, and you have versatility to build whatever list you want and still have it work.

I think that's the opposite of thedarkavenger's stance, from what I'm reading.
There is a very specific way to play Tomb Kings that leads to them being incredibly competitive. They are not flexible. They shoot and magic things into oblivion.

The Knights are pretty sweet; they pack a lot of attacks into a pretty small area.
I wish the Stalkers were better, because I think those models look even better.

They can fight and magic too!

Well...what's a "competitive" Tomb King list look like, in your opinion? One lvl3-4 on their Lore, and a lvl4 and some 1's and 2's on Light...bunch of archers...bunch of Snakes...Casket and Catapults?

Warpsolution wrote:
Well...what's a "competitive" Tomb King list look like, in your opinion? One lvl3-4 on their Lore, and a lvl4 and some 1's and 2's on Light...bunch of archers...bunch of Snakes...Casket and Catapults?

Level 4 light. Level 4 Nehek. 3 Level 1 light mages. 2 units of 5 horse archers. Unit of 20 archers. Units of 10 to make core. 15-18 snakes. Casket. Hierotitan. Two catapults.

It's a shooty, combat, and magic list.

I've done very well with Arkhan and a horde of skelly warriors as well. with double warsphinx, about 50 archersx in a few different units, some horse archers, casket, titan, 2 skullaputs and a few scorpions.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Level 4 light. Level 4 Nehek. 3 Level 1 light mages. 2 units of 5 horse archers. Unit of 20 archers. Units of 10 to make core. 15-18 snakes. Casket. Hierotitan. Two catapults.
It's a shooty, combat, and magic list.

That's 595 in characters, with no gear at all.
600 points core.
490 in rares.
That's 11 snakes to hit 2400 on the nose, and none of those Necro Knights have any command units.
100 archers, less if you want command.
If you get get ~100 points of gear, full command on the necro knights, and a 3rd unit of knights, it would be a solid list.

Doesn't really matter though, Army of Undead just killed TK. Why play tomb kings when you could instead march, not crumble from loss of a wizard, bypass the lore requirements on your wizards, and you just gains another lore and a whole ton of additional units to choose from.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Level 4 light. Level 4 Nehek. 3 Level 1 light mages. 2 units of 5 horse archers. Unit of 20 archers. Units of 10 to make core. 15-18 snakes. Casket. Hierotitan. Two catapults.
It's a shooty, combat, and magic list.

That's 595 in characters, with no gear at all.
600 points core.
490 in rares.
That's 11 snakes to hit 2400 on the nose, and none of those Necro Knights have any command units.
100 archers, less if you want command.
If you get get ~100 points of gear, full command on the necro knights, and a 3rd unit of knights, it would be a solid list.

Doesn't really matter though, Army of Undead just killed TK. Why play tomb kings when you could instead march, not crumble from loss of a wizard, bypass the lore requirements on your wizards, and you just gains another lore and a whole ton of additional units to choose from.

Well, I've played regular Tomb Kings recently, and still did just fine with them. But, a lot of people on one of the Forums for TK that I'm on say that they'll keep regular TK, but just use the rules from Undead Legions. They don't care about the extra units. The book alone buffs TKs a good bit.