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Okay people its been two years since its release. I know its opening up an old wound but.
I have a question for you.
Would Mass Effect 3 technically be a Lovecraft Cthulhu inspired storyline?
I am just generally wondering.
Because in lovecraft one of the major things that happens is that lovecraft takes away that choice you have, all that idea that our decisions are meaningful and that we are Omnipotent. In the end of the game which is completely infamous for being disempowering. I decided to take another look at it, and now I rate it as one of my most favorite video game scenes because of one reason. It follows the Lovecraft ideas all the way through.
It shows you no matter what you do your fate is decided, that the catalyst is beyond human comprehension. It is above us.
I got this brain wave after watching this video.
Now I may be completely full of gak on this one. And I might be foolish for thinking like this.
I only bring this up because I am currently studying video game design.
Now before you answer. Think about it. If you are a lovecraft reader like I am, just think about. And compare.
Anyone agree with this, any disagreements?
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
It felt more inspired by older sci-fi than anything else-- space operas; sometimes revolving around the nature of artificial intelligence, sometimes simply the competing interests of sentieng beings, and so on.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The devs said they were going for something along the lines of 70s sci fi, just updated to fit in with modern conceptions of the genre. That said the Lovecraftian elements are there (fricken squid aliens sitting at the bottom of the ocean...). If its anything to do with that genre though its very light in it. The big bad Reapers despite being a massive threat, never actually feel like something quite as unnerving as the creatures from Lovecraft (which yes, given that the games were playing on tropes about the mighty space marine character it would've been a bit difficult to have them act like Lovecraft's monsters. That said I'm sure from the perspective of someone other than Shepard who doesn't happen to have a million Alliance ships behind them would be crapping their pants). Lovecraft Lite, though it would be easy to stick the series into full on cosmic horror without too much trouble, though the issue being that big old Commander Shepard's just too much of a hero to lose his mind to some Cthulhoid monster.
Isn't that completely contrary to the game? About 90% of the game was about how your choices mattered, and how small decision could have big effects (especially 3 played this up massively).
The very last event of the game is a choice.
On a broader scale: The reapers have some of the theme Lovecraft codified (cosmic horror, something beyond human comprehension, terror from the darkness beyond the stars), but saying that the evil space alien big bad was inspired by lovecraft, is like saying that your stories takes concepts from the works of shakespear; technically correct, but a bit redundant.
It's odd that he points that out when Cthulu gets knocked out by a boat, he even mentions it but it was mentioned it hurt it.
There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where—God in heaven!—the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam… Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/27 20:08:52
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It's odd that he points that out when Cthulu gets knocked out by a boat, he even mentions it but it was mentioned it hurt it.
There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where—God in heaven!—the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam… Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places.
That text means that even after hitting so hard. After so much they have done, Cthulhu still didn't care, that little amount of damage you did, was nothing to him but well ants to him. Cthulhu is an elder god.
I am mainly talking about the ending, in particular, I mean you are given three decisions, one destroy all mechanical thinking life in the universe, control, or biomechanical.
The one problem that I've seen is the catalyst the being on the vessel, when you shoot the catalyst you die. You can't do any harm to it. no matter what you do, that being will exist.
Isn't that completely contrary to the game? About 90% of the game was about how your choices mattered, and how small decision could have big effects (especially 3 played this up massively).
The very last event of the game is a choice.
On a broader scale: The reapers have some of the theme Lovecraft codified (cosmic horror, something beyond human comprehension, terror from the darkness beyond the stars), but saying that the evil space alien big bad was inspired by lovecraft, is like saying that your stories takes concepts from the works of shakespear; technically correct, but a bit redundant.
True, but by that time your decisions are cemented to only 3. Which may seem wierd because you're thinking wait there have always been three. But in this case, you were forced to pick three. All three options were a loss. The character has finally gotten to the last bit. And maybe his sanity is drifting on the edge.
I think it is borderline lovecraftian. But It could be considered one.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Holy gak I just noticed it goes for 90 bucks, and I've still got a copy in the attic!
Yeah it was totally brilliant, at one point some flies walked across the screen and for a moment I actually started forwards to brush them off!
I enjoyed many a dark night playing that on my own in my room and it genuinely did scare me a few times. I heartily recommend it if anyone hasn't played it, although feth knows how you would find a copy now.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
The Reapers themselves were a fairly Lovecraftian idea.
How was it gak? Please enlighten me.
And Eternal Darkness Sanitys requiem (i might need to pick this up)
You wont be disapointed, its fething brilliant.
Regards ME3, i have to agree but only about the ending.
The game was fantastic, immersive, and much more fun FPS wise than ME2.
Not to sound cliched, but the ending really did sour it THAT much for me. As such, despite it being better for 99% of the journey, I would say ME2 edges it.
And that is a tragedy, but honestly I think that completing that game gave me the most palpable nerd fury I have ever had, because it made EVERY SINGLE DECISION I made pointless!
I was really into the whole thing, happily looking forward to retiring on Rannoch with Tali.. and all of a sudden, every single faction I ever chose over another, and every single little decision I made, was rendered moot because everyone died anyway!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
There certainly are lovecraftian themes influencing the design of the Reapers, moreso ME1 than the sequels. Beings beyond our comprehension, their presence driving us insane, motives that we could never hope to understand, etc. All that though was thrown out at the end of ME1 when one was killed showing that even though they are powerful they can still be killed, very non-lovecraftian. ME2 also kept some of the themes particularly the derelict reaper, "even a dead god can dream" wasn't exactly subtle.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It's odd that he points that out when Cthulu gets knocked out by a boat, he even mentions it but it was mentioned it hurt it.
There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where—God in heaven!—the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam… Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places.
The best way I've had that scene described to me is something as follows:
Two bugs are walking along a bed being careful not to disturb the sleeping human. The human stirs and begins to wake, it crushes one of the bugs and goes back to sleep. The surviving bug flees remembering the sacrifice its comrade made to defeat the monster. We may think our struggles have meaning and purpose but to a cosmic horror we go unnoticed. Which is pretty much exactly what Mass Effect, or really any game isn't.
Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
Fixed that for you. ME3's ending was epic, and they did a lot to tie it in to what you did in the previous games.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Yup. All of the hints in the previous game about the Ghost Boy, etc...
Oh, wait...
ME3 was a full-on reverse course caused by the previous head writer leaving the series. And instead of picking up the existing plot threads (for instance, the dark matter problems that were repeatedly mentioned in ME2), we got something completely new that hadn't been at all considered when the previous games were created.
And you can tell from the ending.
The usage of Harbinger in ME3 was flat out insulting to the character after its role in ME2.
Madcat87 wrote: There certainly are lovecraftian themes influencing the design of the Reapers, moreso ME1 than the sequels. Beings beyond our comprehension, their presence driving us insane, motives that we could never hope to understand, etc. All that though was thrown out at the end of ME1 when one was killed showing that even though they are powerful they can still be killed, very non-lovecraftian. ME2 also kept some of the themes particularly the derelict reaper, "even a dead god can dream" wasn't exactly subtle.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It's odd that he points that out when Cthulu gets knocked out by a boat, he even mentions it but it was mentioned it hurt it.
There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler could not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where—God in heaven!—the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam… Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places.
The best way I've had that scene described to me is something as follows:
Two bugs are walking along a bed being careful not to disturb the sleeping human. The human stirs and begins to wake, it crushes one of the bugs and goes back to sleep. The surviving bug flees remembering the sacrifice its comrade made to defeat the monster. We may think our struggles have meaning and purpose but to a cosmic horror we go unnoticed. Which is pretty much exactly what Mass Effect, or really any game isn't.
*cough* spec ops the line *cough*
Think about it
There are a few games that are sort of like that.
Spec Ops The Line under that logic is a perfect example of execution.
Amensia the Dark Descent is until the end.
Amnesia machine for pigs is also one as well.
Silent hill 2 is another example. Because it is a man gone insane fighting nothing but his insanity as it slowly devours him.
Heavy Rain is also an example in a way.
Outlast could be considered one, but just barely. Actually the DLC definately not, but the main game. Yeah thats Lovecraft the whole way. (No matter what you do, Walrider will always get out)
The Walking Dead Series by Tall Tale games could be considered one.
Because you can't kill the beasts. And everything is out of your control. So they are considered to be lovecraftian horror games.
Fixed that for you. ME3's ending was epic, and they did a lot to tie it in to what you did in the previous games.
I am with Melissia on that. I loved the ending. I loved finally being told! HA Its a game. I love disempowering games. I love being an absolute jerk to the player.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 01:24:08
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Fixed that for you. ME3's ending was epic, and they did a lot to tie it in to what you did in the previous games.
Arg! No way!
I made so many decisions and they were all rendered moot! How is that epic?! I was fething gutted when it ended, honestly. Actually gutted.
Not like Legend of Zelda or something where I saw a nice short video that wrapped everything up nicely, I was greeted with death and destruction, it was fething depressing!
I remember reading loads of nerd rage about it and I agreed with almost all of it.
Think about it, cultivating the relationship between Edi and Joker? feth it shes dead. I cured the genophage, they were all fethed too. I dug out blind to help the Quarrians out, and then Rannoch was totally fethed. Earth was completely fethed, Shephard was either dead or a nazi, Jesus you have to be a masochist to enjoy that gak!
Call me a bluff old sci-fi traditionalist, but I liked Star Wars so much because the real world is miserable enough, I at least like my fiction to be happy!
Strange, I a;always argue with my missus about this.. she loves really fething depressing films as well, I watched some "award winning" film she recommended where everyone died and at the close I was sitting there going "I skipped Weekend At Bernies for this?!"
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Fixed that for you. ME3's ending was epic, and they did a lot to tie it in to what you did in the previous games.
Arg! No way!
I made so many decisions and they were all rendered moot! How is that epic?! I was fething gutted when it ended, honestly. Actually gutted.
Not like Legend of Zelda or something where I saw a nice short video that wrapped everything up nicely, I was greeted with death and destruction, it was fething depressing!
I remember reading loads of nerd rage about it and I agreed with almost all of it.
Think about it, cultivating the relationship between Edi and Joker? feth it shes dead. I cured the genophage, they were all fethed too. I dug out blind to help the Quarrians out, and then Rannoch was totally fethed. Earth was completely fethed, Shephard was either dead or a nazi, Jesus you have to be a masochist to enjoy that gak!
Call me a bluff old sci-fi traditionalist, but I liked Star Wars so much because the real world is miserable enough, I at least like my fiction to be happy!
Strange, I a;always argue with my missus about this.. she loves really fething depressing films as well, I watched some "award winning" film she recommended where everyone died and at the close I was sitting there going "I skipped Weekend At Bernies for this?!"
I can tell you would probably hate the ending to a lot of horror games. Where everyone usually dies by the end.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Eumerin wrote:Yup. All of the hints in the previous game about the Ghost Boy, etc...
You mean the safeguard.
Names like "ghost boy" really make it sound as if someone either didn't pay attention, or just deliberately chooses a silly name because they were pissed that something represented by a holographic projection of a kid their character knew eventually forces them to make a tough decision.
Personally, my only problem with the Reapers' background as explained by the Catalyst was how it all evolved around artificial intelligences, which I think is BS. A better mission would have been to regularly purge the galaxy if any civilisation reaches a certain degree of technological advancement, because they'd eventually develop WMDs capable of messing up and depopulating the entire galaxy in a way that it ceases to be able to support any life.
Aside from that, the ending was awesome. In my opinion, its perception hinges a lot on whether the player was capable of accepting that they are not omnipotent, and that there are situations they cannot resolve 100% entirely to their liking - as is sadly the norm with the vast majority of videogames, much like with the story in novels and movies. See the public outrage at Ned Stark dying in A Song of Ice and Fire aka Game of Thrones. Perfect example of the very same reaction the internet had to the ending of ME3. Myself, I like both, because it felt more real, was more emotional, more special, and thus more memorable.
I kid ye not, but after finishing ME3, I've listened to nothing but piano music for about 3-4 days.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
ME3's ending was ME2's ending with less options.
You can get anything from 'almost okay' to 'sorta bad' to 'very bad' as the final result, with 'super bad' as another option patched in, but there was no good ending no matter what you did.
If you could do everything right to get a properly good ending I am sure a lot of people would be happier.
Just out of interest are we talking about the original ending here or the amended one?
The original ending was naff, though the game itself was stunning. However having played through the game again with the new ending I found the overall experience to be much more satisfying, with a separate definitive outcome to depending on your choice.
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
LuciusAR wrote: Just out of interest are we talking about the original ending here or the amended one?
The original ending was naff, though the game itself was stunning. However having played through the game again with the new ending I found the overall experience to be much more satisfying, with a separate definitive outcome to depending on your choice.
I have only played the enhanced ending. It's fine, but 'fine' is not enough for Mass Effect.
Eumerin wrote: Yup. All of the hints in the previous game about the Ghost Boy
How the hell did an AI entity that leads the Reapers surprise you and lead you to think it just came out of nowhere?
It's been hinted at since the first freaking game!
Seriously, the conflict between organic and AI is pretty central to the plot.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/28 11:23:59
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The Geth don't have the hint of an over-arching AI. They build consensus from individual units and become more intelligent when more of them are gathered. The Reapers were never hinted as having an over-arching intelligence either. Listen to Sovereigns speech.
We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness
Fixed that for you. ME3's ending was epic, and they did a lot to tie it in to what you did in the previous games.
No.
The ending was a complete let down and I actually hoped that the indoctrination theory would turn out to be correct. Sadly it wasn't and we got a crap ending in three recoloured sequences.
ME3 was not a good third person shooter. It was an RPG with third person shooter elements. It felt incredibly dumbed down for ME3. It hit the correct balance for ME2, although I didn't really have a problem with ME1 controls.
Building up to the final fight just felt dull. I found myself skipping through a lot of conversations and not really paying attention compared to the previous two games where I would pour over every detail. ME3 felt cheap and all the subsequent DLC in the world can't fix that initial experience. Failed as an ending to the game.
You need to be careful when comparing ME 1 to 2 and 3. The main plot has been significantally changed and altered to be "easier"...hm...hard to describe it. It was changed to ressemble tradtional sci-fi stories instead of focusing more on the "dark matter" plot. Simplified? Can't find the correct word.
Quite a few story ties were cut or reattached to make the story cleaner and more streamlined. That's why some story snippets from ME 1 do not make a lot of sense when directly compared to ME 2 / 3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 12:56:16
Not at all, it was epic and pretty fulfilling. Sure I'd make changes like letting Shepard live as long as you have a high EMS regardless of what you choose, but overall I was pretty satisfied by it.
Medium of Death wrote: and I actually hoped that the indoctrination theory would turn out to be correct
feth that! Indoctrination theory is garbage pushed out by lazy hack writers, thers's nothing good about that crap. It's just another boring cliche lazy "it was all a dream" hackjob, and the world is better the less of THAT garbage there is.
Right. It was an excellent third person shooter, far better than most other games on the market.k
Medium of Death wrote: Building up to the final fight just felt dull. I found myself skipping through a lot of conversations and not really paying attention
Honestly? I think that's more your personal problems. I only started doing that after the second time I had finished the game, and that's mostly because I kept playing it for the gameplay after I had already experienced the story fully twice, including one run where I experienced all four endings through save scumming.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 13:10:57
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I thought the best moment in Citadel DLC was the final elevator conversation with Garrus.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 13:40:55
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Actually, just include everyone's drunken moments, Garrus and Zaeed's boobytrapping the hot tub while drunk, Zaeed just sounds so disappointed when he realizes the clones will have the same DNA as Shepard.
Actually, just include everyone's drunken moments, Garrus and Zaeed's boobytrapping the hot tub while drunk, Zaeed just sounds so disappointed when he realizes the clones will have the same DNA as Shepard.
