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Hello, I am thinking about putting together a few armies for myself. I will be using both army lists for casual play and possibly tournaments. I'm not too concerned with winning, but I am very competitive. I will probably mostly be playing my friend using either one of these lists in part or whole, so any advice is welcome. Anyways, first up, a Thousand Son 4500pt combined arms assault force.

HQ
Dimocules the Sorcerer King 230pts

Daemon Prince 220pts
Ichor Blood
Aura of Dark Glory
Power Armor
Wings
Spell Familiar
Mark of Tzeentch

Elites
Chaos Terminators 464pts
Chaos Terminators x6
Lightning Claw (Champion)
Combi-melta (Champion)
Lightning Claw x4
Combi-flamer x4
Power Fist
Reaper Autocannon
Mark of Tzeentch
Land Raider

Chaos Terminators 464pts
Chaos Terminators x6
Lightning Claw (Champion)
Combi-melta (Champion)
Lightning Claw x4
Combi-flamer x4
Power Fist
Reaper Autocannon
Mark of Tzeentch
Land Raider

Chaos Terminators 464pts
Chaos Terminators x6
Lightning Claw (Champion)
Combi-melta (Champion)
Lightning Claw x4
Combi-flamer x4
Power Fist
Reaper Autocannon
Mark of Tzeentch
Land Raider

Troops
Thousand Son Rubric Marines 277pts
Sorcerer x1
Rubric Marines x8
Rhino

Thousand Son Rubric Marines 277pts
Sorcerer x1
Rubric Marines x8
Rhino

Thousand Son Rubric Marines 277pts
Sorcerer x1
Rubric Marines x8
Rhino

Thousand Son Rubric Marines 277pts
Sorcerer x1
Rubric Marines x8
Rhino

Chaos Space Marines 125pts
Chaos Space Marine x5
Power Fist (Champion)
CCW x4
Melta Gun
Veterans of the Long War

Chaos Space Marines 125pts
Chaos Space Marine x5
Power Fist (Champion)
CCW x4
Melta Gun
Veterans of the Long War

Fast Attack
Warp Talons 400pts
Warp Talons x10
Veterans of the Long War

Warp Talons 400pts
Warp Talons x10
Veterans of the Long War

Heldrake 185pts
Daemonic Possession

Heavy Support
Chaos Havocs 205pts
Plasma Pistol
Power Fist
Autocannon x4
Mark of Tzeentch
Rhino

Chaos Predator 155pts
T-L Lascannon
Sponson Lascannon
Daemonic Possession

Chaos Predator 155pts
T-L Lascannon
Sponson Lascannon
Daemonic Possession

Here is my Space Wolves Armylist. This list is mostly meant to counter my Thousand Son army, thus the prevalence of plasma and lascannons. I also like all the assault cannons for anti infantry and potential anti armor. Let me know if you think it looks good!

HQ
Logan Grimnar 275pts

Bjorn the Fell-handed 270pts
Plasma Cannon

Elites
Wolf Guard Pack 560pts
Wolf Guard x10
Terminator Armor x8
Wolf Claw x8
Assault Cannon x2

Wolf Guard Pack 560pts
Wolf Guard x10
Terminator Armor x10
Wolf Claw x10
Assault Cannon x2

Wolf Guard Pack 654pts
Wolf Guard x8
Terminator Armor x8
Wolf Claws x8
Land Raider Crusader
Multi-melta
Extra Armor
 
Troops
Bloodclaw Pack 250pts
Bloodclaw x15
Flamer x2
Power Fist

Grey Hunter Squad 175pts
Grey Hunter x5
Flamer
Power Fist
Razorback
T-L Assault Cannon

Grey Hunter Pack 175pts
Grey Hunter x5
Flamer
Power Fist
Razorback
T-L Assault Cannon

Grey Hunter Pack 195pts
Grey Hunter x10
Plasma Gun x2
Rhino

Grey Hunter Pack 195pts
Grey Hunter x10
Plasma Gun x2
Rhino

Grey Hunter Pack 195pts
Grey Hunter x10
Plasma Gun x2
Rhino

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron 200pts
Land Speeder x2
Assault Cannon x2
Mult-melta x2

Land Speeder Squadron 200pts
Land Speeder x2
Assault Cannon x2
Mult-melta x2


Heavy Support
Long Fang Pack 295pts
Long Fangs x6
Plasma Cannon
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
Power Fist
Razorback
T-L Assault Cannon

Long Fang Pack 295pts
Long Fangs x6
Plasma Cannon
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
Power Fist
Razorback
T-L Assault Cannon

Well first thing you need to do is remove the points cost of all those upgrades from your list, as that violates the rules of this forum

 grendel083 wrote:
Well first thing you need to do is remove the points cost of all those upgrades from your list, as that violates the rules of this forum

My bad!

I'm not sure why you have Plasma pistol/Lightning claw combos on your champions as either the pistols will run the risk of killing him from overheat, or you lose the additional attack from not wielding two Specialist weapons. It seems as though the Power fist/Lightning claw is a good combo used to provide options, if not a Daemon weapon. Consider taking the BBoS on your Lord to provide him a shooting attack which balances out the double Flamers from your Raptor units (see below).

If your Raptors are going to be configured for anti-infantry with MoT, I would take Warp Talons instead so they get a 4++ and actually take fire away from your Thousand Sons units. The downside is that you have a lot of AP3, but no AP2.

Take off Daemonic Possession from your tanks. Your models are expensive, unless you plan on Deep Striking your Terminators and letting the Cultists ride in the Land Raiders.

MoT on your Cultists is expensive and I hope they will sit in some cover for most of the game and only use their 6++ for when they get are hit by Templates or other weapons which ignore their saves.

For your Havoc squad, consider the Tzeentch Icon with Heavy bolters, and take Lascannon side sponsons on your Predators (keep Possession on these tanks).

Overall, you have four Warp Charge generated which isn't a lot and keeps your Psychic Phase nearly nonexistant. With the excess points from dropped upgrades, whether you take Warp Talons or not, I would grab a second Sorcerer, a Daemon Prince, or Ahriman.

 Aurelian wrote:
I'm not sure why you have Plasma pistol/Lightning claw combos on your champions as either the pistols will run the risk of killing him from overheat, or you lose the additional attack from not wielding two Specialist weapons. It seems as though the Power fist/Lightning claw is a good combo used to provide options, if not a Daemon weapon. Consider taking the BBoS on your Lord to provide him a shooting attack which balances out the double Flamers from your Raptor units (see below).

If your Raptors are going to be configured for anti-infantry with MoT, I would take Warp Talons instead so they get a 4++ and actually take fire away from your Thousand Sons units. The downside is that you have a lot of AP3, but no AP2.

Take off Daemonic Possession from your tanks. Your models are expensive, unless you plan on Deep Striking your Terminators and letting the Cultists ride in the Land Raiders.

MoT on your Cultists is expensive and I hope they will sit in some cover for most of the game and only use their 6++ for when they get are hit by Templates or other weapons which ignore their saves.

For your Havoc squad, consider the Tzeentch Icon with Heavy bolters, and take Lascannon side sponsons on your Predators (keep Possession on these tanks).

Overall, you have four Warp Charge generated which isn't a lot and keeps your Psychic Phase nearly nonexistant. With the excess points from dropped upgrades, whether you take Warp Talons or not, I would grab a second Sorcerer, a Daemon Prince, or Ahriman.

Thanks for the reply. I think I'll drop the cultist altogether. I think I will change out the Raptors for the Warp Talons, thanks for that. I'll also swap out the Plasma Pistol on my champions. "Dimocules" IS Ahriman, I just changed his name for fluff reasons. I think I will stick with autocannons for my havocs. I want to take out the SW rhinos and skimmers with ease.. Doing some other minor changes to the list. Let me know if it is improved.

Your prince has a spell familiar but no psyched levels. Drop ichor, it's useless. Give him the sigil instead of the AoDG, if he can take it. He also doesn't have a weapon, so budget for the black mace.

The reaper ac is a waste if you're assaulting out of a raider. Give at least 1 squad power fists, and consider a fist on the champ of the squads since he must challenge.

Remove those csm squads or drop their wargear, they won't get close enough to use any of it and the termies would be a better infiltrate choice.

You can't take possession on a drake, it's already got it.

Remove the pistol and fist from the havoks, they will never use it, and if they do, it won't save them.

Remove the possession from the preds, bs3 is not good.

An aegis defence line would do wonders for you as well.

I don't know much about chaos but I have played space wolves for 10+ years. First, the list is illegal. You can't mix and match power armor and TDA wolf guard. Second, logan is the biggest waste of points in the new codex because he lost his army wide buffs. The only way he's even close to being worth taking is on his stupid Santa sleigh so he actually gets into combat before dying, but that's a big point sink when you can have a stormfang for 50 points less. Third, Bjorn is the second biggest waste of points in the codex behind logan. Dreads are meh, and Bjorn doesn't add enough to a regular dread to be worth his insane point cost. Fourth, power fists on grey hunters are also a waste of points. Typically it's just a 41 point model that dies before getting a CC attack off. You can have a terminator with SS/TH for 7 more points. Yes, 7 points for a better armor save and 3++ along with deep strike and still doing S10 AP2 attacks that are also Concussive. I would drop Logan and Bjorn and run either a wolf lord in TDA or rune priest in TDA and ulrik. Drop the power fists on the GH. With the spare points, make your first WG squad legal by replacing the PA guys with TDA and add more melta anywhere you can.

Toofast wrote:
I don't know much about chaos but I have played space wolves for 10+ years. First, the list is illegal. You can't mix and match power armor and TDA wolf guard. Second, logan is the biggest waste of points in the new codex because he lost his army wide buffs. The only way he's even close to being worth taking is on his stupid Santa sleigh so he actually gets into combat before dying, but that's a big point sink when you can have a stormfang for 50 points less. Third, Bjorn is the second biggest waste of points in the codex behind logan. Dreads are meh, and Bjorn doesn't add enough to a regular dread to be worth his insane point cost. Fourth, power fists on grey hunters are also a waste of points. Typically it's just a 41 point model that dies before getting a CC attack off. You can have a terminator with SS/TH for 7 more points. Yes, 7 points for a better armor save and 3++ along with deep strike and still doing S10 AP2 attacks that are also Concussive. I would drop Logan and Bjorn and run either a wolf lord in TDA or rune priest in TDA and ulrik. Drop the power fists on the GH. With the spare points, make your first WG squad legal by replacing the PA guys with TDA and add more melta anywhere you can.

His list is illegal, but I think it's because he's using the old codex.

So. Delete it all. Grab the new book. Start again. Logan is good on his chariot. And the other lists time I would include him is when the points are this kind of level. Same as for Bjorn. I like him, but it normal wolves lists Wolf Lords on Thunderwolfs are the go to. Kitted out right they are better in every way than logan and Bjorn with the I lay problem being no access to eternal warrior. But then the chaos list you're trying to counter has no strength 10. So a toughness 5 thunderwolf Lord is as good as eternal warrior anyway.

Consider the logan supplement too. There's actually some very good formations in there. Worth looking at.

Lastly, a Stormwolf would do well in here. Arguably now the best flier in the game. Upgrade it to two twin linked multi meltas and with the lascannons you should embarrass the drake. I'd want to ally in an imperial knight personally if you're facing that many power armour dudes. A rapid fire battle cannon could make a mess of them.