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2014/08/28 19:56:04
Subject: Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
Right, sorry for all the background here, but I'm experiencing agonising frustration with airbrushing!
After buying an introductory set 3 months ago and struggling with constant blockages, I actually went on a course for airbrushing. The course was wonderful and I learnt a ton of stuff - mostly what I was doing wrong up to now.
As a result of the course, I'm well versed in airbrush mechanics, cleaning and maintenance. I'm also in the know about operating an airbrush properly (air -paint - air - stop, etc.). On the course itself I used a Harder and Steenbeck Grafo T1, among other brushes, and loved it. I had no problems with paint build up or blockages at all on the day and decided to get myself one of those badboys.
So, tonight, I finally had a chance to hook it all up and get some paint on the Space Wolves that I've had sitting here for ages. I'm not kidding, but about 20 seconds into the session the airbrush started to feel clogged and, within a minute, it was totally blocked. I took the brush apart and there was dried paint all over and the nozzle was completely clogged. I was using Vallejo extra opaque Heavy Charcoal, thinned 1:1 with water, at about 15 psi. I then had another go, this time using a 1 part paint, 2 parts water ratio and 15 psi and, you've got it, the swine clogged again within a minute.
The only difference between my use tonight and on the course is the type of paint. Are miniature paints, specifically Vallejo, terrible for airbrushing? I know the nozzle of the Grafo T1 is particularly slender (0.15), so is the pigment in Vallejo paint just too large to go through consistently?
Please, someone help; I've put some severe dents into the wall tonight with my (now very bruised) forehead!
Thanks in advance for any help
Danny
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 20:02:59
Do you know what paint was used on the course you were on and were you spraying at 12 - 15 psi on the course? It sounds like you could do with thinning the paint a bit more (1:1 with an extra opaque i.e. heavily pigmented paint doesn't sound like it would be very thin). Also i would try a higher pressure as well. Just experiment a little with a combination of thinning the paint and incresing the pressure and see how you get on.
To me, the paint seemed really thin (I was aiming for the semi-skimmed milk consistency).
I'll give it another whirl when I'm feeling very patient, but thanks for the reply. Sorry for asking a newb question, but why might additional pressure help here?
Vallejo has a paint line similar to their regular paints that you can use in an airbrush directly out of the bottle, maybe you should give that bad boys a shot?
2014/08/28 21:00:59
Subject: Re:Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
You're using an artist's airbrush with a .15mm needle and trying to spray an extra opaque paint (hence heavily pigmented) at a pretty low pressure. That paint needs to be much thinner before you can use it in an airbrush like that.
Also, avoid thinning with just water. Using a thinning medium will help out a lot as well, in my experience Vallejo separates quite easily with water.
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2014/08/28 21:03:18
Subject: Re:Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
tommse wrote: Vallejo has a paint line similar to their regular paints that you can use in an airbrush directly out of the bottle, maybe you should give that bad boys a shot?
With the airbrush he is using I'm guessing the Vallejo Air line will still be way too thick to use out of the bottle. I know it clogs up on me if I try and use it straight from the bottle (not the same AB through).
I agree with Scooty on the Vallejo AB thinner. Vallejo AB thinner is a much stronger solvent than just water, it seems to me that it actually actively cleans the AB as you use it to help reduce clogging. I also sometimes use Humbrol thinner, which has a drying retarder in it that also helps reduce clogging, though I increasingly find myself using Vallejo over Humbrol and just adding a separate drying retarder if I feel I need it.
Also, 1:1 with water sounds way too thick for a high density pigment paint like extra opaque heavy charcoal. I'd go heaps thinner than that to start off with and see how you go. On the introductory course you did, what sort of paint were you using?
There's no hard and fast rule for what ratio to use for thinning. Different paint requires different amounts of thinning and depending on what you're trying to do (basecoats, fine detail, fading, etc) you will want different paint consistency and AB pressures.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nuttersuclan wrote: Thanks Scooty. Do you think I should go for a larger needle/nozzle set up? .4 is available for this airbrush.
I'd start by thinning the paint more to stop the brush you have clogging before you think about spending money upping the nozzle size.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/28 21:16:22
2014/08/28 21:25:18
Subject: Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
Some great advice already... I'd add to seek out Liquitex Airbrush Medium (amazon has it) it is the best product of this kind. You'll see the difference in both the (lack of) frustration and in the paint coverage.
Get an airbrush thinner. In my opinion you have to experiment. Dont worry about over thinning.. Even when the paint is like water it should still give coverage if youre using the correct psi and distance.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2014/08/29 10:46:55
Subject: Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
A drop of drying retardant work wonders to delay tip-dry. Also, I have a toothbrush in isopropyl and give the tip a bit of a brush every now and then to clear away any build-up.
I tried low pressure and 0.15 mmm needle/nozzle sets for a while, but stopped using them. They are great for thin ink paints, but not suitable for acrylic paints. I use a 0.4mm needle most of the time now and had no problems with acrylics, poly-primers or varnish. I use higher pressure as well. Approx 40 psi for paint, approx 60 for primer and varnish.
Most likely your H&S brush accepts different needle/nozzle pairs (my H&S brushes do), so swapping doesn't mean start from zero.
Under 5.14 they pretty much say that they recommend you never go below 0.2 nozzle. This is for the Model Air and I am quite sure the other ranges have a bit courser pigmentation.
Under 5.15 they recommend to use 20-25psi. Thus 15 is a bit low, this recommendation is also for the low viscosity Model Air to the extra Opaque should probably be on the high side of that.
// Andreas
Dark Angels 4th Company (3,830pts) 950pts fully painted
2014/08/29 15:24:20
Subject: Re:Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
What can I say, you guys are amazing. I'll try all of your recommendations and give it another go, before possibly buying a larger nozzle/needle combo.
I'll let you know how I get on! Cheers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/29 19:10:17
Gunzhard wrote: Some great advice already... I'd add to seek out Liquitex Airbrush Medium (amazon has it) it is the best product of this kind. You'll see the difference in both the (lack of) frustration and in the paint coverage.
Quoted for truth.
After years of thinning with a little of this and a little of that I finally discovered Liquitex Airbrush Medium and it pretty well changed my airbrushing life - as well as my painting style overall.
FWIW, this is how I thin my paints for airbrushing. I use an Iwata Custom Micron B, which is very similar to your brush in terms of tip size.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 19:05:45
OK, I had another go tonight. The world's most frustrating hobby continues!
I thinned the paint using a proper acrylic thinner at a 4:1 ratio (thinner:paint). I tried different paint types too, from the GW and Vallejo Game range. I whacked the PSI up to around 20.
I'm still getting horrendous clogging, but it did last a bit longer than last night before I needed to take the needle out and flush everything out properly. The constant need to clean it after so little painting is frustrating and also worrying; it's only a matter of time until I catch that needle tip when it's exposed.
Also, at 20 PSI and with the paint as thin as I had it tonight, I can't really do anything with it. It runs and I feel like I have no control over it whatsoever.
Conclusion, from your great help and my experience: nozzle is too thin and paint pigment is too thick. A vicious combo. Also, an expensive thing to remedy :(
Conclusion, from your great help and my experience: nozzle is too thin and paint pigment is too thick. A vicious combo. Also, an expensive thing to remedy :(
Please heed the advice of the airbrush medium. One of the benefits of using it is that you really can't overthin with it as you can with water. You have an exceedingly temperamental airbrush, it's going to take a little extra work to get it to do what you want.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/29 19:17:22
If you are going for a new needle/nozzle set I would recommend that you go to the 0.4 since thats the closest to what Vallejo recommends also it is a good pairing with the 0.15.
I am very happy that money is in abundance at the moment, just got myself a new compressor and will be getting a second H&S airbrush pretty soon. Mostly because I am a lazy f-ck and don't like to change needles when I go from detail to priming and the other way around. But I am very sympathetic to others that don't have this luxury.
The 0.15 will not be a waste however but you will not use it as an all purpose nozzle. A new set seems to be around £35.
// Andreas
Dark Angels 4th Company (3,830pts) 950pts fully painted
2014/08/29 20:07:24
Subject: Re:Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
Didnt read the whole thread.
few things to solve your problems.
1. use airbrush thinner, 1/1 ratio is way to thin.
2. when using colours with big pigments, like black and ,most whites use bigger noozle.
3. best ratio for most paints is 1 part satin varnish, 1 part thinner 2 parts glaze medium 1 part retarder medium and 2 parts paint.
improves flow and colours doenst dry.
2014/08/29 20:51:28
Subject: Re:Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
nuttersuclan wrote: Thanks man. I'd actually seen your video earlier today after doing some more research so, thanks for that, too!
I take it you mean my AB is temperamental merely because of the nozzle size, yeah?
Exactly. I was having similar issues with my brush before I started using the medium.
I'm sorry to read that; I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy!
In all seriousness though, thanks for sharing that. I *WILL* get this sodding paint to go through and have now ordered some of the suggested medium to assist me.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: How does Liquitex Airbrush Medium compare to Vallejo Airbrush Thinner?
I'm using Vallejo at the moment and like the fact it dries reasonably fast and acts as a solvent.
I have used both, starting with the Liquitex and switching to the Vallejo, and I prefer Vallejo when it comes to thinning any Vallejo paint (duh...), GW, Reaper, and P3. For Tamiya (which I have taken a real liking too lately) I use their X-20A thinner.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/08/30 14:37:30
Subject: Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
Tamiya paints require a specific type of thinner, as does Vallejo Liquid colors, but in my opinion Liquitex works FAR better than Vallejo thinner, even with standard Vallejo paints.
If I'm using the Vallejo Air paints, which are decent but over-rated, then I might use some Vallejo thinner, but Liquitex will still work fine.
Further the Tamiya X-20a thinner, while great for Tamiya paints, doesn't play well with many other brands, like Vallejo Air for example.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/30 14:40:11
AllSeeingSkink wrote: How does Liquitex Airbrush Medium compare to Vallejo Airbrush Thinner?
I'm using Vallejo at the moment and like the fact it dries reasonably fast and acts as a solvent.
How do apples compare to oranges?
They are two similar but different things.
Paint is made of of three basic things: Resin/Binder, Solvent, Pigment.
Binder+Solvent = Medium
Thinner = Solvent
Too much solvent (thinner) and your paint can lose its binding properties. By adding medium that is already pre-thinned to airbrushing standards you make your paint thinner without risking taking it too far. It does make the paint more transparent as the pigment is getting dispersed, but this is fine since you can just do more coats to make up for it.
Part of the problem with thinning acrylics is that not all thinners are created equal. It's always best to use the thinner made for the paint for the best results, but since "water-based" paints can all be thinned with water that should work just fine, right? More or less. But when you start trying to thin for airbrushes with incredibly small tips I've found that the smooth dispersal of pigment that you get by using medium eliminates a lot of headache that you get with other thinners.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: How does Liquitex Airbrush Medium compare to Vallejo Airbrush Thinner?
I'm using Vallejo at the moment and like the fact it dries reasonably fast and acts as a solvent.
How do apples compare to oranges?
I guess I was looking for more of a practical comparative of those 2 products rather than a description of what a medium is since a lot of people are recommending the Liquitex medium I know not all mediums are created equal and not all thinners are created equal so I was specifically asking about Liquitex medium vs Vallejo thinner.
So basically the "medium" lets you thin further than "thinner" because it has binder in it? Is that talking specifically about Vallejo thinner and liquitex medium? Because I have also used Humbrol thinner which is called a thinner but I think must also have some binder in it as I can thin to an almost-water-like consistency and the paint still works fine, also Vallejo thinner tends to slowly separate from the paint if you leave it sitting, Humbrol thinner doesn't. However I find Vallejo thinner easier to use because in practical terms I can still thin to viscosity I need and it's more forgiving because it dries faster (less likely to accidentally pool the paint) and the solvent seems to be stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gunzhard wrote: but in my opinion Liquitex works FAR better than Vallejo thinner, even with standard Vallejo paints.
Why is that? pros/cons?
Sorry I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just genuinely interested in the differences as I've tried a few different thinners already and have found Vallejo the easiest to use so far, it's not the best in all areas but it is has been a good all rounder which I've found easiest to use.
I haven't used Liquitex yet and was just wondering how that compares, so I was hoping for less subjective or general descriptions and more objective specific things like "it separates less" or "it dries faster" or "it clogs less at the same viscosity" or "it's a stronger solvent" or "it sprays a smoother coat of paint" (I'm not saying any of those are true, I'm just wondering ).
Obviously for alcohol based acrylics like Tamiya and Gunze you have different thinners, but for GW/P3/Vallejo paints what makes you say that Liquitex is FAR better than Vallejo?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 00:09:35
2014/08/31 03:43:03
Subject: Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
Now excluding Vallejo Air and liquid, ...for Vallejo game and colour, GW, P3, Reaper and Andrea I find Liquitex to be the best. As I have TONS of those paints I use this regularly.
The difference is most notable in the paint coverage. If you A-B other thinners/alcohol/Windex/etc with Liquitex the final result, in my experience, is quite noticeable. Paints thinned with Liquitex just go on smoother and cover better.
The other pro is that it keeps your tip wetter, longer. ...which means less frequent clogging and frustration.
Also remember there is NO hard fast rule for thinning. Even 2 brand new bottles of the same Mephiston Red, for example, may have different consistency and moisture levels, requiring different amounts of thinning. Thin in clear plastic cups so you can see, and get used to, the consistency that you like best.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 03:48:38
Also...that brush (as any very small needle brush) is NOT easy to use for someone with out a lot of experience.
It takes a while to get a feel for the trade off of pressure, needle size, and your paint (how thin, thinned with what, pigment quality, etc.).
Smaller tip /precision brushes are actually harder to learn and use as they are incredibly unforgiving depending on the paint you are using.
As many others have stated - there are no definitive rules on how much to thin - you have to learn what works best with your brush - your paint, and what you are painting (are you doing detail and painting a belt buckle? or are you base coating a tank).
I use golden airbrush medium, but have used liquitex as well.
For some paints, I like using 91% alcohol.
Others I like the taymia x20a thinner.
I would suggest maybe either putting in a bigger needle (as suggested) or to be honest, going back to a more basic brush (doezens of threads on that - either an iwata hpcs, or a patriot 105 are great learning brushes) to get used to thinning the paints you like to use.
See if you have a friend in your area who has an airbrush, and a lot of paints - experiment with what works for you.
best of luck!
DavePak
"Remember, in life, the only thing you absolutely control is your own attitude - do not squander that power."
Fully Painted armies:
TAU: 10k Nids: 9600 Marines: 4000 Crons: 7600
Actor, Gamer, Comic, Corporate Nerd
2014/08/31 15:51:58
Subject: Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
I use GW paints with a .15 needle. I thin it with vallehjo airbrush paint thinner and my psi is around 20. I have no problems with clogging. Most of the advice is pretty sound given here except that a .15 needle is too small for acrylic paint. That's hogwash.
Your problem is getting the paint consistancy correct versus your needle size versus your air pressure. If ones whacked then it will cause problems...that's for any needle size, paint type, or psi. Your either going to have to mess around with it until you find the happy spot or take your stuff to that class and have them show you with your stuff. Either way it's just learning the set up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 15:54:03
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2014/09/04 15:06:15
Subject: Re:Airbrush Frustration: am I right with my diagnosis here?
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
I know not all mediums are created equal and not all thinners are created equal so I was specifically asking about Liquitex medium vs Vallejo thinner.
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