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We are currently doing an escalation game and I have a player asking if he can use the undead legions army to join in. Currently the book is sold out at our local game stores so I have no way of checking the new rules that come with the end times.

My question is this, does the undead legions army require you to use the end times organization for 50% lords or is it an optional choice. I don't want to have someone come into the games with a 50% lord army where everyone else has been working with 25% for the past few weeks.

Uhhhh if he doesn't have the rules he'll just have to wait until they are back in stock before playing?

 RatLord wrote:
We are currently doing an escalation game and I have a player asking if he can use the undead legions army to join in. Currently the book is sold out at our local game stores so I have no way of checking the new rules that come with the end times.

My question is this, does the undead legions army require you to use the end times organization for 50% lords or is it an optional choice. I don't want to have someone come into the games with a 50% lord army where everyone else has been working with 25% for the past few weeks.

Armies playing in the end times campaign get the 50% lords and 50% heroes. Armies not playing in the campaign would act normally.
The Undead Legions is a "new" army, and can play either in or out of the campaign; if it isn't in the campaign, you would use the normal limit of 25% on lords/heroes.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 RatLord wrote:
We are currently doing an escalation game and I have a player asking if he can use the undead legions army to join in. Currently the book is sold out at our local game stores so I have no way of checking the new rules that come with the end times.

My question is this, does the undead legions army require you to use the end times organization for 50% lords or is it an optional choice. I don't want to have someone come into the games with a 50% lord army where everyone else has been working with 25% for the past few weeks.

Armies playing in the end times campaign get the 50% lords and 50% heroes. Armies not playing in the campaign would act normally.
The Undead Legions is a "new" army, and can play either in or out of the campaign; if it isn't in the campaign, you would use the normal limit of 25% on lords/heroes.

-Matt

This is exactly what I was confused on, thank you.

The spanish version says it is an update to the actual WHFB rules, and doesn't say the 50% lords and heroes is exclusive for the campaign.

In the End of Times Armies section it says:

"This section updates the rules for army selection for Warhammer games. As well as knowledge of the Undead Lore for any wizard. Every army uses this rules to select its forces"

That is the translation from the UL book. I guess it could be only for end of time games but since it says that it updates the rules for warhammer games instead of for end of times games I'm not sure. Maybe the english version got this clearaer

 Lord Yayula wrote:
The spanish version says it is an update to the actual WHFB rules, and doesn't say the 50% lords and heroes is exclusive for the campaign.

In the End of Times Armies section it says:

"This section updates the rules for army selection for Warhammer games. As well as knowledge of the Undead Lore for any wizard. Every army uses this rules to select its forces"

That is the translation from the UL book. I guess it could be only for end of time games but since it says that it updates the rules for warhammer games instead of for end of times games I'm not sure. Maybe the english version got this clearaer

The rules for 50% lords and heroes is under the heading "Armies of the End Times". In the lore of Undeath (different page), you are given permission to have any wizard generate spells from the lore of undeath.
On the other hand, it's NOT in the chapter called "New Warhammer Rules", but rather "New Armies and Units".

-Matt

Umm, it says in the book that in addition to all wizards using the Lore of Undeath, all armies are allowed to use the new Lords percentage. The way I see it, as long as you have the book and are using those rules, it's fine.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Umm, it says in the book that in addition to all wizards using the Lore of Undeath, all armies are allowed to use the new Lords percentage.

Right, at that reference to the lore is specifically spelled out on page 14 in bold.
I don't see the same thing for the lord and hero choices.

-Matt

 krodarklorr wrote:
Umm, it says in the book that in addition to all wizards using the Lore of Undeath, all armies are allowed to use the new Lords percentage. The way I see it, as long as you have the book and are using those rules, it's fine.

Only if both players agree to it.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Umm, it says in the book that in addition to all wizards using the Lore of Undeath, all armies are allowed to use the new Lords percentage.

Right, at that reference to the lore is specifically spelled out on page 14 in bold.
I don't see the same thing for the lord and hero choices.

-Matt

Just got my hands on the book, and before the percentage section in the "How to use this rules" on the last paragraph it says: "Instead you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use in any games of Warhammer that you play. This is highly appopiate; as a result of Nagash's return, neither the Warhammer world, or the warhammer battles that you fight, will eve be quite the same again!"

That pretty much sounds like it is intended to change into the new % and magic lore for any game, not that it will matter for long. If the rumors of 9th are true we might see a new rulebook addressing this in the next months.

Think of it as a tool box to pick and choose is different than, a Bolded statement of you may take lore of undeath if you want to.

Who picks and chooses, just you, or you and your opponent.

-Matt

Armies playing in the end times campaign get the 50% lords and 50% heroes. Armies not playing in the campaign would act normally.

Dear HawaiiMatt
EoT book is not a campain book. This is an update to current Warhammer rules.

I said Undead Legions is an army you can use at any time.

Look at the top of the pages you quoted for Choose an Army.
It is Titled Armies of the End Times.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Umm, it says in the book that in addition to all wizards using the Lore of Undeath, all armies are allowed to use the new Lords percentage.

Right, at that reference to the lore is specifically spelled out on page 14 in bold.
I don't see the same thing for the lord and hero choices.

-Matt

Just got my hands on the book, and before the percentage section in the "How to use this rules" on the last paragraph it says: "Instead you should think of it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what to use in any games of Warhammer that you play. This is highly appopiate; as a result of Nagash's return, neither the Warhammer world, or the warhammer battles that you fight, will eve be quite the same again!"

That pretty much sounds like it is intended to change into the new % and magic lore for any game, not that it will matter for long. If the rumors of 9th are true we might see a new rulebook addressing this in the next months.

Yeah, only issue is I hope Nagash doesn't become like LoW from 40k. "Hey, I'm gonna use Nagash."... "Umm, no? I don't wanna fight him."......"Well....crap..."

You're not required to get opponent consent or anything of that nature for Lords of War that are in army books.

That's why they purposefully put the Stompa in the Ork Codex as a LoW alongside of Ghazghkull Thraka.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yeah, only issue is I hope Nagash doesn't become like LoW from 40k. "Hey, I'm gonna use Nagash."... "Umm, no? I don't wanna fight him."......"Well....crap..."

The part that makes it all clear as mud is page 4, under how to use this book.
As you can see, this book represents much more than just a selection of scenarios and the special rules to go with them. Instead you should think it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what yo use in any games of Warhammer that you play.

Who is picking and choosing? You? Your opponent? A consensus from both?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yeah, only issue is I hope Nagash doesn't become like LoW from 40k. "Hey, I'm gonna use Nagash."... "Umm, no? I don't wanna fight him."......"Well....crap..."

The part that makes it all clear as mud is page 4, under how to use this book.
As you can see, this book represents much more than just a selection of scenarios and the special rules to go with them. Instead you should think it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what yo use in any games of Warhammer that you play.

Who is picking and choosing? You? Your opponent? A consensus from both?

-Matt

You and your opponent both have to agree to use the percentages.

In a tournament, it's up to the TO.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You're not required to get opponent consent or anything of that nature for Lords of War that are in army books.

That's why they purposefully put the Stompa in the Ork Codex as a LoW alongside of Ghazghkull Thraka.

Actually you do in the BrB where BOTH players have to agree on selecting units.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You're not required to get opponent consent or anything of that nature for Lords of War that are in army books. .

Ehm...yes, you are, else:

"I will use Nagash!"
"Sorry, not playing against him."
"BUT YOU MUST! IT'S IN THE RULES!"
"Dude...I'll....just go to that table over...th-"
"YOU MUST PLAY WITH MEEEEEEEEEEEE!" *swings rulebook around*

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yeah, only issue is I hope Nagash doesn't become like LoW from 40k. "Hey, I'm gonna use Nagash."... "Umm, no? I don't wanna fight him."......"Well....crap..."

The part that makes it all clear as mud is page 4, under how to use this book.
As you can see, this book represents much more than just a selection of scenarios and the special rules to go with them. Instead you should think it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what yo use in any games of Warhammer that you play.

Who is picking and choosing? You? Your opponent? A consensus from both?

-Matt

You and your opponent both have to agree to use the percentages.
In a tournament, it's up to the TO.

When I select my lores of magic, I don't need my opponents agreement. When I select lore of Undeath, I don't need my opponents agreement.
But the 50% lords/heroes, I'm not sure on.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yeah, only issue is I hope Nagash doesn't become like LoW from 40k. "Hey, I'm gonna use Nagash."... "Umm, no? I don't wanna fight him."......"Well....crap..."

The part that makes it all clear as mud is page 4, under how to use this book.
As you can see, this book represents much more than just a selection of scenarios and the special rules to go with them. Instead you should think it as a toolbox, from which you can pick and choose what yo use in any games of Warhammer that you play.

Who is picking and choosing? You? Your opponent? A consensus from both?

-Matt

You and your opponent both have to agree to use the percentages.
In a tournament, it's up to the TO.

When I select my lores of magic, I don't need my opponents agreement. When I select lore of Undeath, I don't need my opponents agreement.
But the 50% lords/heroes, I'm not sure on.

-Matt

The book is an addition to the actual game.

The lores are written at the army list stage.

This is fact. Regardless, the lore of undeath is available. The rules permit this.

The percentages, however, require pre-arranged agreement. Else it just messes up the process of the game.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The percentages, however, require pre-arranged agreement. Else it just messes up the process of the game.

Do you currently plan out with an opponent to follow the BRB rules for army comp?
That's the nature of the debate. Parts of Warhammer: Nagash make it seem like the 50% replaces the BRB entry. But other parts of it are much more clear.
When you get the chance to actually read all the Nagash rules, you'll see this.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The percentages, however, require pre-arranged agreement. Else it just messes up the process of the game.

Do you currently plan out with an opponent to follow the BRB rules for army comp?
That's the nature of the debate. Parts of Warhammer: Nagash make it seem like the 50% replaces the BRB entry. But other parts of it are much more clear.
When you get the chance to actually read all the Nagash rules, you'll see this.

-Matt

We're all used to the 25% lords and heroes.

But not all of us own the Nagash Supplement. When one of our group rocks up with an army of 50% lords, the rest of us then have to spend time reworking our entire lists, and as we run quite optimised lists, it takes a bit of time to figure out what we want to rewrite our lists to. And once or twice, I've had to proxy a lot of models because my list got reshaped completely.

And I have read the rules, a member of my gaming group owns the book. Well, I've read the characters, and the spells.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The percentages, however, require pre-arranged agreement. Else it just messes up the process of the game.

Do you currently plan out with an opponent to follow the BRB rules for army comp?
That's the nature of the debate. Parts of Warhammer: Nagash make it seem like the 50% replaces the BRB entry. But other parts of it are much more clear.
When you get the chance to actually read all the Nagash rules, you'll see this.

-Matt

We're all used to the 25% lords and heroes.

But not all of us own the Nagash Supplement. When one of our group rocks up with an army of 50% lords, the rest of us then have to spend time reworking our entire lists, and as we run quite optimised lists, it takes a bit of time to figure out what we want to rewrite our lists to. And once or twice, I've had to proxy a lot of models because my list got reshaped completely.

And I have read the rules, a member of my gaming group owns the book. Well, I've read the characters, and the spells.

We're debating RAW on YMTC. Tag the post as HIYPI, or add some insight from the rules.

Armies playing in the end times campaign get the 50% lords and 50% heroes. Armies not playing in the campaign would act normally.
The Undead Legions is a "new" army, and can play either in or out of the campaign; if it isn't in the campaign, you would use the normal limit of 25% on lords/heroes.

-Matt

This sounds like a great answer.

 gummynerds wrote:

Armies playing in the end times campaign get the 50% lords and 50% heroes. Armies not playing in the campaign would act normally.
The Undead Legions is a "new" army, and can play either in or out of the campaign; if it isn't in the campaign, you would use the normal limit of 25% on lords/heroes.

-Matt

This sounds like a great answer.

Except it's not if you read the blurb about it in the rules.

50% Lords and 50% Heroes is the new way things are done. They explicitly write that "This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army."

So unless you want to argue that the Lore of Undeath is explicitly tied to the End Times campaign, then it is best for people to move on and accept the change.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 gummynerds wrote:

Armies playing in the end times campaign get the 50% lords and 50% heroes. Armies not playing in the campaign would act normally.
The Undead Legions is a "new" army, and can play either in or out of the campaign; if it isn't in the campaign, you would use the normal limit of 25% on lords/heroes.

-Matt

This sounds like a great answer.

Except it's not if you read the blurb about it in the rules.

50% Lords and 50% Heroes is the new way things are done. They explicitly write that "This section updates the rules for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer. Just as the Lore of Undeath is available to any Wizard, all armies use these rules for choosing an army."

So unless you want to argue that the Lore of Undeath is explicitly tied to the End Times campaign, then it is best for people to move on and accept the change.

Again you say the same thing, so I will as well....that is list under Armies of the End Times....how bought you just accept this is a campaign supplement like SoM and move on...

 quickfuze wrote:

Again you say the same thing, so I will as well....that is list under Armies of the End Times....how bought you just accept this is a campaign supplement like SoM and move on...

So, Lore of Undeath is campaign only then?

It says "Armies of the End Times" as a heading for the section, but nowhere does it say that "These percentages are used only when playing the End Times campaign scenarios".

It is listed under Choosing an army, which is listed under Armies of the End Times...like this

A - Chapter: Armies of the End Times
B - Paragraph: Choosing an Army
C - Sentence: These percentages yada yada yada

Then Undead Legions and Lore of Undeath cannot be used outside of the scenarios presented in Warhammer: Nagash.