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Little background: Fairly new to the hobby, played my first 1500 point game against my friends Nurgle Daemons. I actually ended up winning to do a few lucky rolls and a few tactical surprises that he wasn't expecting. He's very much a veteran so I'm under the impression he might have gone a little easy on me, and his list was a little fluffy. The question I'm asking is... what can a Guard player do to be more effective/threatening? I'll be honest, other than my two Leman's his list was terrifying, a Soul Grinder, a Greater Unclean One, Plague Drones, Plague toads, AND a Herald of Nurgle... all of which had more wounds than my Leman's and could do WAY more damage than the rest of my army. I can list what all I brought if anybody is curious but seriously, what's the best way of countering an opponent that can field units that can out-beef and out-hit you? Or am I cursed as a Guardsman to accept the military doctrine of acceptable losses for each battle I go into?

TLR how do other members of the Imperium approach the battleground

I first would like you to welcome you to the IG! And I'll tell you what I tell most new IGers. Read this. The author is an active Dakkanaut and has some very good advice. Now for my opinions. I run a very mixed army. I normally have a large platoon, so mech vets, and some tanks. I feel that is the best way to create a list as it covers most of your bases. I'd suggest just trying a bunch of different ways and seeing what you like the best.

 Insane Smile wrote:
I first would like you to welcome you to the IG! And I'll tell you what I tell most new IGers. Read this. The author is an active Dakkanaut and has some very good advice. Now for my opinions. I run a very mixed army. I normally have a large platoon, so mech vets, and some tanks. I feel that is the best way to create a list as it covers most of your bases. I'd suggest just trying a bunch of different ways and seeing what you like the best.

Thanks for the article, I'll give it a peruse. I think I'm on that cusp of either going armor or infantry. I'm getting a few things that will make my infantry a little more scary, so I'm going to see if that makes any difference.

Gamerely wrote:

 Insane Smile wrote:
I first would like you to welcome you to the IG! And I'll tell you what I tell most new IGers. Read this. The author is an active Dakkanaut and has some very good advice. Now for my opinions. I run a very mixed army. I normally have a large platoon, so mech vets, and some tanks. I feel that is the best way to create a list as it covers most of your bases. I'd suggest just trying a bunch of different ways and seeing what you like the best.

Thanks for the article, I'll give it a peruse. I think I'm on that cusp of either going armor or infantry. I'm getting a few things that will make my infantry a little more scary, so I'm going to see if that makes any difference.

Why not instead get both and mix and match? You can never have enough plastic crack! Likewise welcome to the IG, they are my favorite army and honestly I think one of the most underrated armies in terms of competitiveness out there currently. With people continually going on about Eldar being nasty the IG are often ignored, in fact I would rank them even stronger then the Tau at this point if built correctly. Orders with Heavy Weapons teams, spamming Leman Russes, ect. the Guard have a lot of versatility so just mix it up and play with what you like and good luck!

@Insane Smile: Thanks for linking my article, is good to know people are finding it useful.

@Gamerely: one of the biggest advantages Guard have is that anything the enemy can do, we can't always do better but we can always do more. They bring a couple of tanks, you can bring half a dozen. They bring one Plasmagun in a squad, you can bring three. The key to being threatening with Guard, therefore, is to bring more threats then the enemy can handle.

The enemy list you describe in the OP is always going to be a rough match as Guard are best at killing light infantry, something that will be less useful against a high-toughness Nurgle list. However, there a are ways to make it work.

The GUO is tough, and it may be best to tar pit it rather then try for a kill. If you can bring a unit of 20 Conscripts and a Priest, the GUO had to kill all of them before he can move on, thanks to Fearless. It may seem like you're wasting the unit, but you're only losing 85 points, which is a fair trade for stopping a Greater Demon from tearing up your lines.

There's a lot of tough infantry in the list, to which end I'd advise using Plasma Guns on Veterans, to put out some shots that don't care if you're T5. Alternatively, 36 points gets you a SWS with 3 Sniper Rifles. Pack a few of these and you get a bunch of utility, being able to wound targets easier, having multiple cheap scoring units, and plenty of squads to use as spoeedbumps. The enemy seem far less scary when they're reduced to killing guardsmen 6-10 a turn.

For the Soul Grinder, I'd suggest either a LC/PC Vanquisher or a unit or two of deep striking Scions with Meltaguns. These will hopefully take it out reasonably fast, and the Vanquisher pull double duty as an MC/heavy infantry killer. For even better results, make him a Commander or Pask, which makes it more accurate and reliable.

Hope that helps, if you have any other questions let me know.

 Paradigm wrote:
Alternatively, 36 points gets you a SWS with 3 Sniper Rifles. Pack a few of these and you get a bunch of utility, being able to wound targets easier, having multiple cheap scoring units, and plenty of squads to use as spoeedbumps. The enemy seem far less scary when they're reduced to killing guardsmen 6-10 a turn.

 Paradigm wrote:
@Insane Smile: Thanks for linking my article, is good to know people are finding it useful.

@Gamerely: one of the biggest advantages Guard have is that anything the enemy can do, we can't always do better but we can always do more. They bring a couple of tanks, you can bring half a dozen. They bring one Plasmagun in a squad, you can bring three. The key to being threatening with Guard, therefore, is to bring more threats then the enemy can handle.

The enemy list you describe in the OP is always going to be a rough match as Guard are best at killing light infantry, something that will be less useful against a high-toughness Nurgle list. However, there a are ways to make it work.

The GUO is tough, and it may be best to tar pit it rather then try for a kill. If you can bring a unit of 20 Conscripts and a Priest, the GUO had to kill all of them before he can move on, thanks to Fearless. It may seem like you're wasting the unit, but you're only losing 85 points, which is a fair trade for stopping a Greater Demon from tearing up your lines.

There's a lot of tough infantry in the list, to which end I'd advise using Plasma Guns on Veterans, to put out some shots that don't care if you're T5. Alternatively, 36 points gets you a SWS with 3 Sniper Rifles. Pack a few of these and you get a bunch of utility, being able to wound targets easier, having multiple cheap scoring units, and plenty of squads to use as spoeedbumps. The enemy seem far less scary when they're reduced to killing guardsmen 6-10 a turn.

For the Soul Grinder, I'd suggest either a LC/PC Vanquisher or a unit or two of deep striking Scions with Meltaguns. These will hopefully take it out reasonably fast, and the Vanquisher pull double duty as an MC/heavy infantry killer. For even better results, make him a Commander or Pask, which makes it more accurate and reliable.

Hope that helps, if you have any other questions let me know.

Oh it was a fantastic article, I'm going to add it to my bookmarks as a reference for whenever I need a quick reminder on what to think about bringing.

Yeah his list was definitely nasty, but it wasn't full on competitive, it was kind of a fluffy list since he's preparing for a narrative campaign. But I did play his similar list at 1000 points, with a Soul Grinder and the Plague drones, and some screamers of Tzeentch that completely humiliated my tiny list. He basically walked through me on both sides of the field. But this time, I was prepared, brought a devil dog and decked my chimeras with a few melta troops each (didn't bring any the first time) brought a Punisher Pask, blobbed my infantry and brought some Space Marine allies. Killed his Soul Grinder which was a moral victory for me and Pask destroyed his plague drones by himself which was another moral victory... but he did wipe out my blob and Commissar with some warp storm thing on turn 1 and killed both Lemans and Command squad with Nurgle Toads and the GUO.

So I still need to workshop a few different things to improve their lifespan. I might ask to bump it up to 2000 points so I have more wiggle room on what I can bring, but that'll mean he'll bring more Soul Grinders and units with 4 wounds each, so it's a toss up right now. But I like your suggestion of playing the Chicago way, Just tough with these damn Daemons, they're so beefy and have outrageously good CC.

Glad it was helpful. I need to edit a few parts now that 7th has settled in, mostly on characters and psykers, but most of it is still relevant.

I see what you mean, the list he used want broken or OP, it's simply that most anti-infantry the Guard have (lasguns) is S3, so it's only doing half as many wounds on T5 (needing 6s) then on T4 (needing 5s). Compare that to the SM core weapons, Bolters, which need 4s and 5s to wound T4 and 5 respectively, and you can see why it's a bigger problem for Guard that most. SM lose 1/3 effectiveness over T4, Guard Lasguns lose 1/2.

So you kind of need to rely on heavy/special weapons and tanks to do the heavy lifting. This means keeping them alive more than anything, so don't be afraid to sacrifice Infantry to keep the Tanks/Vets safe. Your Punisher should also try and hang on the edge of its range and resist the urge to get close when you don't have to. It's just as good at 24" as at 6", but can't be charged at the former, so keep on moving, keep it hovering in that point where you can do damage and they can't.

Gamerely wrote:
... blobbed my infantry and brought some Space Marine allies..

My question is, why not DA? The reason I'm saying this is cause of Azrael as he gives a 4++ to the unit he's in. How does a fearless group of +50 guardsmen with a 4++ and I think something like Furious Charge (I don't have my codex on me right now so don't quote me on it)?

 Insane Smile wrote:

Gamerely wrote:
... blobbed my infantry and brought some Space Marine allies..

My question is, why not DA? The reason I'm saying this is cause of Azrael as he gives a 4++ to the unit he's in. How does a fearless group of +50 guardsmen with a 4++ and I think something like Furious Charge (I don't have my codex on me right now so don't quote me on it)?

There are too many to choose from! How do you pick which one to go with!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
Glad it was helpful. I need to edit a few parts now that 7th has settled in, mostly on characters and psykers, but most of it is still relevant.

I see what you mean, the list he used want broken or OP, it's simply that most anti-infantry the Guard have (lasguns) is S3, so it's only doing half as many wounds on T5 (needing 6s) then on T4 (needing 5s). Compare that to the SM core weapons, Bolters, which need 4s and 5s to wound T4 and 5 respectively, and you can see why it's a bigger problem for Guard that most. SM lose 1/3 effectiveness over T4, Guard Lasguns lose 1/2.

So you kind of need to rely on heavy/special weapons and tanks to do the heavy lifting. This means keeping them alive more than anything, so don't be afraid to sacrifice Infantry to keep the Tanks/Vets safe. Your Punisher should also try and hang on the edge of its range and resist the urge to get close when you don't have to. It's just as good at 24" as at 6", but can't be charged at the former, so keep on moving, keep it hovering in that point where you can do damage and they can't.

Right, he did bring some troops, I want to say they were plaguebearers, so my guys probably would have had a better time with them instead. But unfortunately on turn 1 he wiped out my blob with something on the warp table. Killed the commissar and everything. It was brutal.

I also need to work on keeping my armor more mobile. At one point I lost my Pask because I sat and tried to take out his Greater unclean one, instead of using the order to move across the table.

I think losing the platoon can be put down to bad luck on your part, from what I hear the Warp Chart can be just as devastating for the Demon player, so next time it should go another way.

In theory, Pask need never get closer than 24", as that's his optimum range and he can't be charged there, but obviously the enemy will be trying to get closer. Just bear in mind that you can always move 6" a turn and still fire at full capacity.

As for SM allies, here's another article of mine on subject: http://antorsfinest.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/space-marines-as-allies.html

I'd not suggest Azreal, as I don't think he really benefits Guard as much unless you have a huge blob kitted for CC, at which point you're investing about 600 points in something of a one trick pony. The 300+ points spent on Azreal and the required troops could buy you another 50-odd guardsmen with upgrades, which in my opinion is far more useful to the army.

 Paradigm wrote:
I think losing the platoon can be put down to bad luck on your part, from what I hear the Warp Chart can be just as devastating for the Demon player, so next time it should go another way.

In theory, Pask need never get closer than 24", as that's his optimum range and he can't be charged there, but obviously the enemy will be trying to get closer. Just bear in mind that you can always move 6" a turn and still fire at full capacity.

As for SM allies, here's another article of mine on subject: http://antorsfinest.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/space-marines-as-allies.html

I'd not suggest Azreal, as I don't think he really benefits Guard as much unless you have a huge blob kitted for CC, at which point you're investing about 600 points in something of a one trick pony. The 300+ points spent on Azreal and the required troops could buy you another 50-odd guardsmen with upgrades, which in my opinion is far more useful to the army.

What are you, some sort of... really.... smart person? I'll think of a better analogy later. Your blog is a fantastic resource. The ONLY thing missing is a what to do against this type of army, kind of thing. Like, vs orks bring this to hard counter nobz, type of thing. But that would take a really long time to crunch up that much stuff. But yeah, I'm workshopping a couple of different Space marine chapters. I'm using my own one I made, but I want to benefit from a chapter, I'd be a branch off. If that makes sense.

Hah, thanks, I just have too much spare time. I did mean to do a few 'know your enemy' type articles once I finish my Codex overview, but it's been a while since I got around to writing anything for it. I must update it soon though, this thread proves people are still using it.

My buddy runs guard, he's got a 1500 point list that can pack a pretty good punch:

He takes 2 tank commanders and puts them each in a Leman Russ Punisher equipped with 3 heavy bolters. Now that puts out 29 shots and the tank commander gives it a BS of 4! Now you have to take a "vehicle squad" with him so he takes a Leman Russ Battle Tank with each commander but the tank commander can use orders to split fire meaning they don't have to fire at the same unit. So that's 660 points for 58 shots on BS4 and 2 templates. That alone should get you started

He also runs only Veteran squads (once you get a taste of BS4 you cant go back). He mixes up the units between either 3x Plasma Guns (106 points per squad) or 3x Grenade Launchers and an Autocannon (86 points per squad). Add in like 8 squads of those guys and you should be able to put out enough fire to do some damage.

 Paradigm wrote:
Hah, thanks, I just have too much spare time. I did mean to do a few 'know your enemy' type articles once I finish my Codex overview, but it's been a while since I got around to writing anything for it. I must update it soon though, this thread proves people are still using it.

Oh absolutely, it's a very handy area for people just starting with Guardsmen. It's helped me understand things. Add this to the list: when facing your friends 100% infantry Ork army, probably don't need to bring a Punisher AND a Hell Hound in 1000 point battles. I felt like I beat up a puppy.