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So here's something that occurred to me. A long time ago I read a really, really old WHFB book- I can't remember if it was the roleplay book or the rulebook. Anyway, it mentioned the presence of benevolent chaos entities and daemons, including a lot belonging to the "law" gods of the world. There were actually angels in this book, who were lesser daemons of the law/order goddess.

So could the same apply to 40K?

I'm actually tempted to say "yes". For one thing, it's stated that there are thousands of deities within the Warp- the big 4 are just the most powerful. It wouldn't be surprising if there were non-malicious and even outright benign gods within the Warp with their own daemons. For another, there's the case of the Emperor himself. He's a massively powerful psyker with a warp presence so strong he is literally a god himself (to the point where even the big 4 are rivalled by his power). The warp being what it is, it would make sense that his presence would be capable of spawning minor warp entities (angels if you will). Heck, the Living Saint could be argued to be a Greater Daemon of the Emperor- she seems to have been resurrected and elevated to unfathomable power by the will of the Emperor. The final case is actually daemons of the big 4 themselves. The Chaos Gods- at least in older editions (and WHFB) were depicted as not purely evil entities. Khorne is a god of war, but also honour and martial pride. Nurgle is a god of death and decay, but also life and rebirth. Slaanesh is a god of hedonism and excess, but also of relief and passion. Tzeentch is a god of fate and deceit, but also ambition and hope. If you choose to follow some of the older fluff, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine the Chaos Gods and their daemons being capable of acts of benevolence- IIRC, the Flesh Hounds were originally dispatched to hunt down warriors who dared to turn their blades on the innocent and the weak.

So yeah. I know it requires a bit of headcanoning, and a lot of referring to older tomes (and WHFB) but...I think there is a precedent.

Thoughts?

it makes sense really. If chaos adhered to only good/evil doctrines then it really wouldn't be chaotic at all, instead it would simply be evil.

There is a yin and a yang to the 40k universe. Chaos corrupts defiles, and changes things that would otherwise stay constant. There must be a constant, in order for there to be chaos. without order there is no chaos as chaos is definedcomparatively with order.

Then again if chaos is simply random and seeks to incite change, then it should also want to end chaos, as the perpetual state of chaos is ironically un-chaotic.

There used to be in 40k too, but GW decided to suck all the flavour out and replace with generics and stereotypes. Khorne used to be God of martial honour and pride for example, and was worshipped by those of warrior cults that sought to better themselves in honourable duals and were punished for breaking the rules of a duel.

Nowadays Khorne is simply kill kill kill and Daemons are all bad all the time no exceptions.

Khorne used to be God of martial honour and pride for example, and was worshipped by those of warrior cults that sought to better themselves in honourable duals and were punished for breaking the rules of a duel.

He still is... to a point. But martial pride will always, ultimately, lead to performing atrocities to prove your skill and defend/avenge/prove your honor.

Chaos corrupts. It's what it does, and what it has always done.

As far as "good" Daemons go... sure. The Warp is a big place, and anything can walk out of it. They're just not that common because the Warp is mostly Fethed Up, filled with Fethed Up Things, and those Fethed Up Things exist to Feth Up every other thing. All the things.

Being that the current state of the warp is said to be a reflection of the material galaxy, they could exist but might few and far between.

Most of your warp entities (Chaos Gods, Gork and Mork, Khaine, The Emperor etc ) are, much like the races they are associated with, violent belligerents. However you do have exceptions, like Isha (who seems relativly benevolent compared to the rest). So it is possible for there to be benevolent warp entities but they could be outshone by the malevolent ones.

There probably are some non-hostile warp entities remaining, but the evil ones definitely compose the majority of warp beings. This is because the Warp is a reflection of the real world, and can also influence the real world.

So originally, evil entities and good entities existed in equal measure, but the evil entities began actively making the real world more evil. Thus more evil entities began to exist and good diminished.

Some good entities would still be around, but they'd be few and very rare. For your "good" armies you could summon some "good" counts-as daemons.

What, a Chaos god of Law? Wouldn't it be called Order?

 Orsai wrote:
What, a Chaos god of Law? Wouldn't it be called Order?

You mean like this?
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gods_of_Law

Yeah, that's from fantasy, and they aren't exactly benevolent. Personally I feel like the Emperor himself, or what has become him in the warp, fills in that particular niche in 40k.

However, there certainly are lots of other entities in the warp besides the big four, and it makes sense to me that some of them would be less malicious. The Eldar Gods are a group that come to mind, although whether they are true warp entities or the last remnents of the Old Ones has never been settled. The Avatars of Khaine fit the definition of "benevolent daemon" pretty much to a T, at least if you're a craftworld Eldar. They even use Daemon rules on the tabletop!

Actually, I would prefer it if the big four got a little more time dedicated to their positive aspects, not because I think they or their followers should be heroic, but because it makes them much more interesting villains.

I should point out that nurgle may embody order to some degree. Its said his plague bearers are called tallymen as they represent mortals need to impose order on a chaotic universe.

Yeah there's tons of them, they just don't write about them anymore (and kelly tried to cut everything that wasn't daemons with his terrible fluff)

 Squigsquasher wrote:
So here's something that occurred to me. A long time ago I read a really, really old WHFB book- I can't remember if it was the roleplay book or the rulebook. Anyway, it mentioned the presence of benevolent chaos entities and daemons, including a lot belonging to the "law" gods of the world. There were actually angels in this book, who were lesser daemons of the law/order goddess.

I do not think that there is such a thing as “good” or “evil” daemons. I am sure they all have a blue and orange morality. It is already quite hard and arbitrary to divide more mundane factions into good and evil, so I do not think it makes sense to try that on daemons. As for the presence of “order” gods, arguably Nurgle likes it when things stay the same. It is just that “the same” is a state of gleeful decay.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Then again if chaos is simply random and seeks to incite change, then it should also want to end chaos, as the perpetual state of chaos is ironically un-chaotic.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malal

 Aims wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Then again if chaos is simply random and seeks to incite change, then it should also want to end chaos, as the perpetual state of chaos is ironically un-chaotic.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malal

Congratulations on not only linking to a poorly run wiki, but also to something that hasn't been canon for over a decade!

Malice is still in the setting. He's Malal with a different name.

Malal is called Malice now (kinda sorta). Minor chaos god of anarchy. Not a nice guy. Doesnt play well with others.

 Psienesis wrote:
Malice is still in the setting. He's Malal with a different name.

Malice is sourced only from one short story in which he exhibits a great deal of power that we've seen outdone by greater daemons. Potentially even lesser daemons. We don't even know if he has any real power to his name, let alone him being a Chaos God.

And people source Miriael Sabathiel from a CCG that wasn't even a GW product, and one short story.

You can't have it both ways. Either these spin-off products and brief mentions/intimations in BL publications are "canon", or they aren't.

40k/fantasy did used to have gods of Order.

I think it is reference in either the original 40k book or the original fb book, they also had angels.

okay I found it in the original fantasy book.

gods of good and order are still classed as daemons.

From greater daemons:

"not all daemons are evil or malicious, although all are powerful creatures. Daemons are part of every pantheon, including those of good and kindly gods as well as the blood curdling deities of chaos and evil."

the full list of fantasy gods is in the original WFRP

MANANN god of the seas, neutral

MORR god of death, neutral

MYRMIDIA goddess of war, neutral

RANALD god of thieves, neutral

SHALLYA goddess of healing and mercy, good

TAAL god of nature and wild places, neutral

ULRIC god of battle, wolves and winter, neutral

VERENA goddess of learning and wisdom, neutral

KHAINE lord of murder, evil

RHYA mother goddess, neutral

then there are a bunch of non human dieties

then there are the gods of CHAOS

Khorne

Nurgle

Malal

(yes at this point in GW slaanesh and tzeenetch did not exist)

for those interested it states

MALAL
"a renegade chaos god , who has turned against the others and is dedicated to their destruction. His followers sometimes called, the doomed ones, seek out and destroy followers of the other chaos gods wherever they are found"

Then there are the gods of LAW

which have already been linked.

While those are definitely gods of order, they aren't "chaos" gods of order. As in they life in the realm of chaos.

Its not really stated where the various elven and human gods reside.

You could consider the Old Ones gods of order, and as they built the realm of chaos they're kinda "chaos gods"