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Someone mentioned this game in another thread as a "platoon-level" game, bigger that Song of Blades and Heroes, but smaller than Kings of War. Has anyone played this game? If so, what did you think of it?

I did, just this week.

I love the feel of the game, but there are some combos that are icky. I think we'd read some of the rules wrong, though. It is the basic SBH engine, but with some nice modifications like how ties are affected, casualties are dealt out and movement is a bit more constant.

You'll have between 8 and 20 mortals in small units, 3 to 5 legends or heroes and a god, nominally you, on the table.

I was dead within a couple of turns because Loki is a beast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since some dice seem to hate me, the most useless trait in my life is Combat Master. I don't care if I can make 3 attacks with my god, because I usually roll low (and when you roll high against a Loki force he can make you reroll it once per turn), so I'd rather pile all my actions into one powerful blow that adds to my combat total just that one time.

I also cannot stress enough that this game is about synergies, especially keeping your mortal units with a legend nearby. The bonus to outnumber is important, and can quickly turn the tide in your favour.

I kind of want to use these rules with the miniatures from Cthulhu Wars ...

It would be awesome. I wonder what you'd use as legends, though, but maybe the creatures could fit into that category.

I like it...

Plus, the system is open to be tinkered with, the annex gives all the point costs and algorythm to calculate new units.

Yup, we play occasionally in 15mm. Means the options for those large god models really opens up. And speaking of cthulhu, guess what my god is! I used reapers smaller eldritch god model (rather than that huge one), along with a trio of nightgaunts for my legends and a bunch of militum magister druids for my mortals.

Do you have a list of units you might want to share?

I think it was me that mentioned it.

We've played a couple of times at the club. We've been using it for fantasy. Between the supplied lists in the book and the additional official downloadable lists at the website ( http://www.ganeshagames.net/index.php?cPath=1_45 ) there's enough stats that can represent most fantasy group. Though there are rules to do so, we've not had to invent our own. I used the Japanese list for my Chaos warriors and it felt very representative and I look forward to trying out my Elves with the Celt list.

It's a really neat straight-forward game that will feel very similar to players of SBH. However, in addition to containing units/squads, there are a number of nice changes, two of which I'll list here.
1) First, it has a very simple reaction system. It flows well and doesn't really add any complexity to the game, but definitely adds to the fun of the game.
2) They also streamlined the modifiers so they all only affect the attacker. This was a good change to my mind.

Here's a couple of game reports/reviews from our blog.
First try with two other members of the club.
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/05/of-gods-mortals-game-report.html

My first go at the game:
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/06/grind-them-to-dust-ogam-battle-report.html

Im rather fond of the deployment system. Rather than two forces facing each other down, having everything starting in the middle is a rather interesting change. Could be interesting to port it over to some modern/sci fi rules sets.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Do you have a list of units you might want to share?

The "main" list is usually

Cultists- Q4, C2, Fanatic- 19 points (basically the Celtic Druid without Forester)
Nightgaunt- Q3, C3, Flying, Confound (Closest I could think of to represent the nightgaunt "tickling". Was thinking of dropping it out for Stealth or something to represent them better). - 90 Points
Cthulhu- Q2, C5, Sacrifice, Labyrinth, Water God, -332 Points

I was looking to use Heresy minis Hellhounds as Hounds of Tindalos (conveniently bringing me to 5 Legends as they sell them as packs of two). Throwing Amphibious onto the cultists would make a fairly good base for a Deep One hunting pack (Khurashan models?). I have a longer list than I do games played or that i'm likely to play. Mostly I made this out of loose Call of Cthulhu rp minis. Double purpose is always useful.

Thanks, Eilif! I've ordered a hardcopy of the game from Amazon, and look forward to giving it a go!

Great! Let us know how it goes.

Eilif, is it me or are samurai rarely worth the extra points? Over regular warriors or bandits, I mean.

I had 6 warriors (yari armed ashigaru), 8 bandits with forester (yamabushi) and 4 samurai on the table, and he just skirted the samurai during the 2 turns the game took, so they were essentially an invocation pool.

Is Loki that powerful, in your experience?

Josh, do you think we could change the thread title and use this as a discussion thread for the game?

Mathieu, the Japanese list tuck a few nerfs in terms of one of the gods (I forget which) and one of the two samurai units (again, not sure which) so it could be they got nerfed a little...excessively as is the usual with these things.

I think the main draw of the samurai (of both flavours) is simply that you can make them mounted, or make them good shots with a longer range. Makes them ungodly (badum tsh) expensive, but if you ever need the range then... Well, that or a unit of 7 Chosen Samurai and a bunch of peasents anyway

Having only had one game, I can't really judge the value of the different units. I just know I had alot of fun and can't wait to play again. Nerfed is a relative term in SBH style rulesets because the statlines are all made (with few exceptions) with the same unit creation engine, and unit creation engines are NEVER perfectly fair or balanced.

My preference is either to use the lists as is, or use the engine to build a character based strictly on appearance and then just play and let the chips fall where they may in terms of balance. On occasion I'll go back and upgrade a character that doesn't perform as well as it should in relation to similar unts. However, I don't like to do so too often, because the charm of rules like these is that they are specifically NOT listbuilding focused, and I don't want to go down that road. I'm far more likely to downgrade a character if it get's too powerful. Our club outlawed the "savage" rule in our SBH games for this reason.

The problem with SBH rules is that its amazing for playing to themes, or (hating saying this) to a "narrative" I.e "oh hey, these two abilities simulate this legend well even if they aren't so useful, awesome!". However, some gamey elements do slip through. The chosen samurai and Hachimen (I think they were) having most of the combat abilities stacked up in a certain way meant they turned into steamrollers.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:


Josh, do you think we could change the thread title and use this as a discussion thread for the game?

Done!

Hachiman isn't even on my radar at 412 pts. I think that's too much for a god in a list that has very expensive legends. I took Amaterasu with her sword and regretted the upgrade. She'll do fine at the standard profile, I think. I want to try Izanami with some peasants, undeads and some missile unit.

What irked me was that Norses get a Q4, C1 OO troop that has medium shooter for 13 points, and I get the same profile for 15 points. It's ultimately only 16 points, tops, but it makes me wonder if others are out of whack like that.

What I have so far:
Japanese:
Amaterasu
Susanoo
Hachiman
Raijin
Izanami
(three of those are repurposed Ten Thunders miniatures)

8 Ashigaru with yari (warriors)
4Ashigaru with arquebuses
4 bandits with bows
4 bandits (I mix them both on the CD, I put the prevailing profile in front)
4 Animated Corpses (soon to be 8)
8 Samurai
4 Samurai bowmen

1 Tatsu (Malifaux Dawn Serpent)
1 Giant Spider
2 Humans on foot (can be Jimmu or legendary heroes)
a slew of gaki, oni, mostly repurposed Malifaux Kirai crew.

For my Greeks, I have:
6 Athenian Hoplites
8 Spartan Hoplites
4 Greek archers
5 Satyrs (repurposed Ungors)
5 Centaurs in the works
4 Psiloi in the works

No heroes, no creatures, no gods.

That is actually pretty weird about the Armed Peasents. They seem to have gained 2 points out of nowhere under the unit builder.

Had to go through bloody tmp to find this

http://www.massimomoscarelli.it/ogam/

the supposed official blog of ogam, though difficulty in finding it supports other theories.

Looks like i was wrong, clicking the Japanese army list via this site gives the recommendation of lowering Ryujin a combat point. Check out the Football cult a bit lower down too

I just had another game tonight (it could have been two, but my wife was sick, so I wanted to be with her).

I had Amaterasu (basic profile), Jimmu, a Legendary Hero with Legendary shooter, a Nine-Tailed Kitsune and an Oni. They were followed by 8 armed peasants, 8 bandits with bows and forester and 8 warriors (vanilla). This was less than ideal as I had planned to use Izanami with a Neko-mata and Giant Spider, but I had left those two at home.

I was lined up against Odin, a Norn, a Giant and Fenrir, 5 trolls, 8 nobles and 6 regular dudes. (Can you tell I don't know all their stats?)

I placed the terrain, he started setting up in a corner but then hid Fenrir just behind a block of forest, I tried to deploy Kitsune forward to have a chance to use his ability, but alas unsupported. His mortals and Norn were on the table edge, far from my force, behind woods, where I would have to go through Odin and trolls or Fenrir to get to them.

I got took first turn, but tragically rolled him a reaction, which allowed him to kill my Oni right off the bat (Odin is wicked with his spear) and Amaterasu charged his Giant only to have her roll a 1 on her combat dice. A 2 would have had us tied. So I got pushed back, and failed my next activation roll. He charged the now Oni-less unit of yamabushi with Odin and trolls, inflicting massive casualties during the turn, more importantly using my retreat to penetrate my lines deeply. His Giant again pummelled Amaterasu, but this time he elected not to follow. Fenrir then jumped Kitsune, narrowly beating him, but again bad dice made me lose him right away.

It was an automatic turnover, but I rolled three failures to activate my first unit, so control reverted to him... after he got his reactions. I decided to call it then and there.

What I've learned:

Kitsune is very expensive, for abilities that need to be very close to the enemy. I'd rather have them never be useful than risk him up front again like that. And there is no way to support a unit in this game. So if you want to game movement to a maximum, you can always get the drop on a Legend and if you roll well/have enough spare dice to increase your total, you're pretty much guaranteed the kill.

The Norse gods have very synergistic stats. Both Loki and Odin are fearsome on the board.

There is no way to mitigate bad dice rolls. Unless you have prophecy units.

Ironbovin thinks that the Armed Peasants cost more because their shooting is more of and option, so as such, it ought to cost more. I had no problem using the basic version, in order to save 40 points.

Oh and I forgot to ask you guys about this:

What is the point of having a full unit of shooters? I mean, yeah, it's a "free" invocation/prayer dice, but a full unit still only shoots with one die, and usually without both long range and an ability to stack, on top of generally having a lower combat value?

Last night, I realized that I had two legends that were shooters, could shoot much farther than my troops and had a much better chance of wounding. Again, I'd have saved 40 points which could have been spent either on boosting my goddess or getting better legends.

Thoughts?

I don't think there IS a point to full units of shooters outside of i invocation and maybe keeping the unit alive "just in case". The option for a full unit is just there as there's no real separation between units that can and can't shoot outside of the one mechanic if you get what I mean. All mortals are units of 4-8 no exceptions.

I think it could also help in campaign play. The points increases between games it recommends aren't all THAT huge, so a half unit of mortals or two is a nice fit for the gap. Though i'd be more curious about using the regular SBH campaign rules for it than the given ones. Throwing a +1 magic weapon on a mortal unit and have them die, losing the weapon to time, or be the last survivor and get "ascended" as a new legend addition later on just appeals to me.

It's also struck me this can probably be used to play Warhammer Fantasy. Chaos gods with viking stat Marauders, a nice big Hammer wielding model with some Psuedo-European soldiers. A giant rat leading slightly smaller giant rats.

No, I don't think I quite get what you mean. I'm trying to understand real hard why anyone would be willing to pay points for any miniature in a unit above 1 that can shoot, as there is really only the added benefit of survivability, but everything else is a de-buff.

Most legends baseline around Q3 C3, and are 60 points naked. Most will have other options, but shooting at long range for them ends up costing less than 20 points. For instance, the Japanese have a Legendary Hero that for 106 points has shooter (long), good shot and legendary shooter, on top of many other goodies. He rolls with a single die and still hits at 0 with a single action three long range bands away.

A unit option costing almost as much only reaches three medium bands and often hits at -2. Still with only a single die, even though there are many more shooters.

Now, I agree a lot of the lists might not have the option to have shooty legends, but isn't that an argument to widen the available lists of legends (from often very rich mythologies) rather than suffer a bad choice of units?

As for your last line, I think it might be ok for Fantasy, if you like Hero Hammer, but not much else. It breaks down with some of the non-humans. I think you do what floats your boat, but the game offers an opportunity to play with and learn about real mythologies. WHFB has its own rich mythology.

I think the invocation is a pretty strong reason to have bigger units of an type. In our few battles gods died and were invoked several times.

Maybe not as efficient as a non-shooting unit of mortals, but useful nonetheless. I'll have to try some big shooting groups and see what happens.

Have you asked this question at the SBH yahoo group? Andrea personally answers questions there.

He does? Oh my... I might have to give it a whirl. Though I do like that dakka is pretty much my one stop shop for everything I need to know about gaming these days.

Or so I keep kidding myself.

You might indeed be kidding yourself.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Dakka, but for the games that fly under the radar it really helps to visit other sites as well.

The SBH yahoo group is a treasure for anyone who is into any of the games that Andrea writes. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/songofblades/info His constant involvement there is probably one of the reasons that his games have the following that they do.

I also keep active at TMP and Lead Adventure as well as they have a HUGE amount of news discussion, project logs and links to blogs about the kind of games and minis that get stuck away in the Dakka "Misc Miniature Games" section.

If you didn't guess I WAS mostly grasping at straws and taking a shot in the dark there (and at a -2 no less ). Really the invocations and that they just didn't bother to differentiate it from other mortal units further is all I can come up with. Generally speaking your going to have less opportunistic shots with mortals, so a good bout of invocation may be much more preferable.

The WHFB thing was just a thought. I play at 15mm, so I can get a full mortal unit for £3. Even at a standard points game it's cheap enough I can happily consider picking up a fully formed army as just a boxed one off thing....painting it and the effort to is another matter that usually stops me. I get what you mean though and fair enough.

Honestly one i'v been wanting to do is a (slightly generic) Polynesian list. Reaper do a nice Shark Warrior that'd make a good god, and eureka have some nice Hawaiians (including King Kamahameha for a legend). Bit stuck on the other legends is the problem. Same for a nice Hindu list, now THAT i'd like to see. I think the biggest problem for this game is finding the models to fit the lovely mythology :(

Yeah, well you missed! Other pantheons will be a great addition to this game, but there ought to be a concerted effort to find lists of manufacturers and product numbers to help in the search for good minis. I had the hardest time finding a good Amaterasu. I settled for KD, but otherwise I was not finding exactly what I was looking for.

I think 15mm might be a better scale for this game after all... I just don't like the either chibi proportions of some manufacturers, or the shallow sculpts of others. Ironbovin had given me some Zveda 1/72 samurai, but the details were a bit meh and I kept snapping the weapons, I got so frustrated. And I am by no means a clumsy person. They are unbelievably cheaper though, I give you that. I find they aren't *that* faster to paint, though.

I don't really have time to visit other communities, to be honest. I keep up in dakka on a handful of threads, but that is it. I wanted to check out the yahoo group but my wife is logged into the work computer as her yahoo ID, so I don,t want her to be kicked out or worse, receive gaming related emails. I'll check it out next week.

Agreed on a concentrated effort for resources.

 doc1234 wrote:
Agreed on a concentrated effort for resources.

Fair enough,
But the fact is that most folks playing these games aren't coming to Dakka.

 Eilif wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:
Agreed on a concentrated effort for resources.

Fair enough,
But the fact is that most folks playing these games aren't coming to Dakka.

I got that It's honesttly a shame. Not that they don't come to Dakka specifically, but just how spread out a LOT of games still are with communities. ATZ for instance I think i'v only really seen popular on...maybe 1 yahoo group? And honestly i'm not a huge fan of yahoo groups (so I shall assume there are others who aren't, and yes technology scares me and Edison was a witch). But it doesn't mean people who DO play that are on Dakka (us) can't put a little resource together, maybe some pictures and see if we can't attract other peoples interest into it.

Maybe.

Most games do have a specific yahoo group or their own forum. However, I think you;ll find a good number of folks who like ATZ and similar games at TMP and Lead Adventure.

That said, I always try to help folks out on Dakka when I can. Been doing it for years, but the "Misc Games" forum continues to be mostly populated with mainstream style games and KS's that just happen to not be connected to one of the "big" games. It doesn't have a tenth of the indie game info that I find from other sources.