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The new Grey Knight codex has had some well deserved criticisms. They don’t really have a good answer to fliers, heavy armor, tarpits, or cover saves. Essentially, any other Codex besides Chaos Daemons. And before anyone else says "But Grey Knights are supposed to only fight Daemons", no, they're not. In the Fluff they often have to cut their way through other battles to get to the Daemonic incursion, and after the Daemons have been dealt with, the exterminate the witnesses, to prevent corruption from taking root. Grey Knights have as much reason to be able to face other factions as anyone else. I don’t believe any Codex should need allies to be competitive.
What makes it so bad is that it would have been so easy to do it right. Grey Knights haven’t been OP for quite a while, and though rebalancing would have been appropriate, a nerf across the majority of the codex was not needed. There are plenty of minor changes that would hugely impact the viability of this army.
PAGK Psycannons took the biggest hit. Their cost went up 50%, their mobile range dropped 50%, and they lost the ability to assault after firing them. They really need something to make them useable for PAGK. Reverting to their old Assault 2/Heavy 4 profile would be easiest. Alternatively, increasing the range to 36” would help cover the Grey Knights’ weaknesses. Obviously the cost would be increased for Terminators, being as they always use the better profile, but the PAGK cost should remain the same, since they’re already giving up their Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Sword for it, and they’ll be using the 18” profile most of the time. Regardless if it is one of these options or some other change, something needs done to the Psycannon.
Grey Knight transports are now no different than vanilla Marine vehicles. I understand removing Psychic Pilot to lower the GK number of Warp Charges, but Grey Knights don't have access to any unique vehicles, and adding a special rule or weapon option give them a bit of flavor of their own.
Rhinos could be made unique and cool if they had an optional upgrade that gave models firing flamer type weapons from the hatch the Torrent special rule for something like 20 points. That alone would give sufficient reason to bring PAGK, even if Psycannons were left as they are. The points of the upgrade and the cost of the unit inside ballance the power of the weapon. Other factions have much more powerful vehicles so it's NOT Over Powered.
The Razorback could be improved if the Heavy Bolter had the option to be exchanged for a Heavy Psycannon. Even at 24”, the Heavy Psycannon’s 6 Strength 7 Rending shots improves the Razorback’s chances of damaging heavy armor and Monstrous Creatures. The Gatling Psilencer would also be a great option for the Razorback. It would greatly improve the value of PAGK by improving the value of their Dedicated Transports, being as the Fast Attack slot should be used for the Storm Raven or Interceptors. Again, this would improve the uniqueness of the Grey Knights, improve upon their lack of high-strength weapons, and is still no more over powered than vehicles other factions have.
The best shooting weapons in the Grey Knight army are the ones on the Dreadknights, so making them available to the relatively cheap vehicles would encourage much more variety in list building, rather than just spamming as many Dreadknights as possible.
Grey Knight Terminators should have access to Storm Shields. Specially commissioned by the Emperor and given by the best the Imperium of Man has to offer… it’s ridiculous that Vanilla Space Marine Terminators can outmatch them in close combat by using the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield combo. Grey Knights are supposed to be among the best at close combat, but little things like this prevent them from being able to reliably fill that role.
The HQs other than the Librarian and Techmarine need a 25 point price decrease. As it stands the Librarian is the auto-take because it is so much more cost effective than the other HQs. The drop in cost would result in players bringing a better variety of HQs to their battles. They're predominantly close combat HQs, are vulnerable to Instant Death, and don't have better than a 4++ invulnerable save. Price decreases would balance them vs. other HQs.
All Deep Striking units need either a Special Rule, or an optional upgrade that reduces their own scatter when they deepstrike. Teleport Homers are too situational and restricting to be of any use in the average game. With Teleport Homers if you Deep Strike on turn1, you have the full scatter unless you arrive in your own deployment zone (wasting the DS). Otherwise, you can only arrive with reduced scatter if you are arriving where you already have models, and often the Deep Strikers are most needed behind enemy lines where ground forces can’t reach.
Instead of Purifiers having “Purifying Flame” which grants Soul Blaze to their Close Combat attacks, they should have the Fiery Form power from the Pyromancy discipline. It would be very fluffy, and would give their Apocalypse Formation a chance to survive foot-slogging across the battlefield. They'd only get Soul Blaze in close combat if they got the power off, and they'd have a chance to survive being assailed by Helldrakes or any of the other rediculous AP3 weapons other factions have access to.
With the plethora of AP1-2 weapons in the game, and the amount of Instant Death on the table, Paladins are too expensive to take over Terminators. They need something to give them a decent chance to survive AP2, since they are a considerable chunk of points and won't be wasted sitting in a good cover save.
The base cost of the Dreadnought needs to be lowered by at least 15 points. They just can't do enough to justify the cost when compared to the other options.
{Edit} Interceptors get Deep Strike through being Jump Infantry, so that's good.
The Storm Raven and Land Raider Crusader should have the option to exchange their Hurricane Bolters for Psycannons (4 Strength 7, Rending shots instead of 3 twin-linked bolters). It would make these units more unique to the Grey Knights and would give them some much needed moderately-high Strength weapons. I don't know what price would be appropriate, though I suspect for the Storm Raven at least it would be fairly restrictive.
Purgation Squads should have the Perfect Timing power from the Divination discipline. As it stands there is really no reason to take them over any other PAGK. But what they NEED, is access to Missile Launchers with Flakk Missiles. It would give them access to long range weapons to fire from their secured positions, and would provide the Grey Knights with anti-air of their own apart from the wretched Ballistic Skill of the Fortifications, which can’t even fire att priority targets over closer ones.
The Dreadknight is perfect. He is a threat, but is something other factions are able to counter without having to tailor a monster-hunting list.
The Fluff says that Kaldor Draigo can’t be killed by gods or daemons, so as great as he is, I think he should still have his previous stat-line, though the point reduction and new Titansword make him far better than the 5th edition version of him even with the penalty to WS, BS, S & T.
“Psychic Brotherhood” from the Grey Knights Brotherhood formation should be a Command Benefit for the Grey Knight Strike Force.
Grey Knights need useful Formations. The ones they have don't cut it.
The Purifier Formation takes around 1500-1600+ points depending on wargear for 51 models who can't deep-strike or take Dedicated Transports. Their only options for survival are hoping to get lucky saves, or taking Fast Attack or Heavy Support transports to hide in, using up those valuable Force Org Slots.
The Dreadknight Formation only gives Shred, which is only a step better than the Nemesis Greatswords, which grant a re-roll regardless of their proximity to each other.
The Stormraven formation with a Dreadknight can't be taken anymore because the Stormraven no longer has access to Psybolt Ammunition.
The New Formation eats up 2000 points and isn't balanced to be able to beat armies from the other factions.
The Grey Knights were an A-list army when they came out. As the power-creep affected each new Codex, they were B-list by the end of 6th edition. This new Codex drops them to D list. Other Codexes being D-list doesn't excuse this. Each Codex should be both internally and externally balanced so that any unit in each codex has a fair shot at being played competatively, and no faction has a unit that doesn't have a counter from the other factions.
Implementing some of those changes would bring them back to A or B-list levels, and I suspect that a couple other codexes would benefit from rules tweaks the same way.
So with Wheaton's Law in mind, what propositions do you think would work, which ones wouldn't, and why?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/09/08 17:56:58
blaktoof wrote: the new codex brought them in line with the other 7th edition codexes.
When the tau/eldar/necrons get their 7th treatment, they will not be as they once were.
If they made the GKs equal in power to those codexes, 7th would be flawed going forward, as it is 7th is well balanced among the 7th codexes.
I respectfully disagree. The Codex isn't even balanced with itself. Every unit needs to have a role that it fills better than the others. The Grey Knight codex doesn't have that. The Librarian is far more cost effective than the other HQs, the same goes for Terminators as Troops and Dreadknights as Heavy support. Half the units are not viable for anyone intent on having a chance to win against an opponent of comparable skill. Being as it is so poorly balanced with itself, there is no possible way for it to be balanced with the other codexes, unless players voluntarily play fluffy armies without regards for what units are tactically viable.
As it stands, allowing so much power creep into the game then knocking one codex down this far is a kick in the gut, and will likely result in turning off many GK players to this game entirely. If I knew someone who would give me a half fair price for my 10,000+ point Grey Knight army I'd sell in a second.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't trust GW to fix their game. Every change will always break something worse than before. They think buying their models is the hobby, not the game, so they will never put the effort into getting the game right.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/06 05:29:43
I respectfully disagree. The Codex isn't even balanced with itself. Every unit needs to have a role that it fills better than the others. The Grey Knight codex doesn't have that. The Librarian is far more cost effective than the other HQs, the same goes for Terminators as Troops and Dreadknights as Heavy support. Half the units are not viable for anyone intent on having a chance to win against an opponent of comparable skill. Being as it is so poorly balanced with itself, there is no possible way for it to be balanced with the other codexes, unless players voluntarily play fluffy armies without regards for what units are tactically viable.
Most codexes are like that. Terrible units completing with much better choices. I play 3 armies, DE, CSM, and IG and honestly IG comes the closest to not being 50% garbage but DE and CSM were 60-75% garbage when they were new and it hasnt gotten any better. Add to their limited choice of allies and I have very little sympathy for GK.
Your list is long and not focusesed. It reads like "I want these 20 things for GK, so they will be OP and be able to do anything." A kinder reading would be, "these 20 things to bring GK back to where they use to be" which again, the game changes and focusing on what is lost isnt a productive venture. I reccomend looking long and hard at your list of complaints and focusing on 1-2 things that would really do the most to addressing your grievances.
Psycannons might be it, but that doesnt really address how OP and silly psycannons were. GK had 3 ranged special weapons in the old codex and only 1 was ever taken. Toning down psycannons and buffing incinderators and psilencers was going to have to be something that needed to be done in this codex. Perhaps think of how those three weapons could be balance and all necessary and fun.
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Most codexes are like that. Terrible units completing with much better choices. I play 3 armies, DE, CSM, and IG and honestly IG comes the closest to not being 50% garbage but DE and CSM were 60-75% garbage when they were new and it hasnt gotten any better. Add to their limited choice of allies and I have very little sympathy for GK.
Your list is long and not focusesed. It reads like "I want these 20 things for GK, so they will be OP and be able to do anything." A kinder reading would be, "these 20 things to bring GK back to where they use to be" which again, the game changes and focusing on what is lost isnt a productive venture. I reccomend looking long and hard at your list of complaints and focusing on 1-2 things that would really do the most to addressing your grievances.
Psycannons might be it, but that doesnt really address how OP and silly psycannons were. GK had 3 ranged special weapons in the old codex and only 1 was ever taken. Toning down psycannons and buffing incinderators and psilencers was going to have to be something that needed to be done in this codex. Perhaps think of how those three weapons could be balance and all necessary and fun.
I didn't argue that Grey Knights should get all of those things. The point is that in one fell swoop, we dropped from a b-list army to a d-list army, and went from most of our units being perfectly viable, to barely 3. The codex is a turd in a tux. If you want a concise list of the worst offenses, here they are.
The Psycannon, the backbone of the Grey Knights since the Daemonhunters Codex is worthless on PAGK.
The Librarian is the only cost-effective HQ, so the rest of that section is pointless.
The Terminators are the only cost-effective Troops, so Strike Squads are pointless, and there are no other Troop options.
The Dreadknight is the only unit with decent maneuverability, good mid-range shooting, and decent survivability for the point cost, so anything other than the HQ/Troop tax is pointless.
Welcome to Codex: Monobuild, population... Dreadknights.
Grey Knights still don't have any cost-effective answer to Fliers, Heavy Armor, Hoards, or Long Range, while everyone else knows exactly what the Grey Knights will bring to the table and can tailor their army to crush it.
Exergy wrote: Most codexes are like that. Terrible units completing with much better choices. I play 3 armies, DE, CSM, and IG and honestly IG comes the closest to not being 50% garbage but DE and CSM were 60-75% garbage when they were new and it hasnt gotten any better. Add to their limited choice of allies and I have very little sympathy for GK.
I can concur the same issue with Sisters. Canoness is basically useless, the Elites are useless, the Troops aren't balanced well (and are the only one in the book), the FA slot isn't bad, and Heavy Support is pretty much "take 3 Exorcists", though some people like Retributors in a Bastion (I don't agree because it's a LOT of points to make them useful, and their rending AoF works 3 times max if you take a banner and give them Jacobus, so in my book they're also useless).
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The Stormraven is a decent answer to flyers.
200 points get you a TL-lascannon, a TL-MM, and 4 Str8 AP2 missiles. All on an AV12 flyer thats immune to melta. And hey its got a transport capacity if you ever want to use it.
The codex definitely took a hit, but a terminator focused psychic power spam list will still be competitive. You'll never see PAGK with anything other than Incinerators, and rarely at that, but you mostly just won't run them.
I am saddened by the nerfs, but they aren't insurmountable.
Weakness to long range is mitigated by deep striking in on turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 18:01:39
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Exergy wrote: Most codexes are like that. Terrible units completing with much better choices. I play 3 armies, DE, CSM, and IG and honestly IG comes the closest to not being 50% garbage but DE and CSM were 60-75% garbage when they were new and it hasnt gotten any better. Add to their limited choice of allies and I have very little sympathy for GK.
I can concur the same issue with Sisters. Canoness is basically useless, the Elites are useless, the Troops aren't balanced well (and are the only one in the book), the FA slot isn't bad, and Heavy Support is pretty much "take 3 Exorcists", though some people like Retributors in a Bastion (I don't agree because it's a LOT of points to make them useful, and their rending AoF works 3 times max if you take a banner and give them Jacobus, so in my book they're also useless).
So yeah, not just a GK problem.
Guys, I do believe I posted this under "40k Proposed Rules" did I not? The proper responses would be to discuss which of my proposals are good or bad, and why. Not implying that nothing needs changed because other factions have been given the shaft too (to which I reply that no other faction to my knowledge has fallen so far with a new Codex, as most factions get new units and rules that make up for the losses.
Grey Knights new rule was sacrificing Objective Secured for a 2/3 chance for each Deepstriking unit to arrive on turn 1 with full scatter. Odds are the Deepstriking units will be shot to hell before they have the chance to get into assault. Assaulting without plenty of ranged support is not a viable tactic in this edition, and no codex should have to take allies or a pure cheese list, just to stand on even footing with other armies.
Grey Knights still don't have any cost-effective answer to Fliers, Heavy Armor, Hoards, or Long Range, while everyone else knows exactly what the Grey Knights will bring to the table and can tailor their army to crush it.
You can still ally with half the armies in the game as battlebrothers. Your "dropped us to D grade" theory made me chuckle. I play CSM, I make it work even though I'm hamstrung by similar issues that can't be resolved by allying in the single faction available to me as a quasi battle brother.
I found the "unique rhinos" part a microcosm of your entire post. You aren't satisfied with something that others get, you want a better version because... well... Grey Knights!1
ForeverARookie wrote: Grey Knights have had some well deserved criticisms. They don’t really have a good answer to fliers, heavy armor, tarpits, or cover saves. Essentially, any other Codex besides Chaos Daemons.
As it should be. The Grey Knights are not if not efficient, and they have absolutely no need to tackle fliers, heavy armour, tarpits or cover saves. Why? Well, Daemons have no fliers but the Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Fateweaver and DPs. Stormravens shoot them down, Dreadknights take them apart in melee.
Heavy armour? The closest to heavy armour Daemons get is a 3+ armour save, which each and every Knight goes through with their base weapons.
Tarpits? The closest Daemons have are Nurglings, which are Daemons and Knights are trained to fight and kill with ease.
Cover saves? Daemons charge up the centre and bullets fly through them, or appear like ghosts next to you. Don't need no cover.
This Codex is all about the fluff. Fluffwise GK need nothing more so they get nothing they don't need.
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Deadshot wrote: As it should be. The Grey Knights are not if not efficient, and they have absolutely no need to tackle fliers, heavy armour, tarpits or cover saves. Why? Well, Daemons have no fliers but the Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Fateweaver and DPs. Stormravens shoot them down, Dreadknights take them apart in melee.
Heavy armour? The closest to heavy armour Daemons get is a 3+ armour save, which each and every Knight goes through with their base weapons.
Tarpits? The closest Daemons have are Nurglings, which are Daemons and Knights are trained to fight and kill with ease.
Cover saves? Daemons charge up the centre and bullets fly through them, or appear like ghosts next to you. Don't need no cover.
This Codex is all about the fluff. Fluffwise GK need nothing more so they get nothing they don't need.
What a load of BS. "Only" 4 different Fliers. Heavy Armor... Soul Grinders have front and side armor 13. The ONLY answer Grey Knights had to that was the Psycannon which got to hell. And my Chaos opponents tend to have THREE of them in every list. As for the Fluff regarding everything else, it states directly that the Grey Knights exterminate anyone who's been exposed to Chaos, so that they corruption can't take root in them. So yes, the Fluff states that the Grey Knights fight everyone else too, so they need something that works against them, for fluff and for basic decent game mechanics.
Grey Knights are supposed to be the best fighters in the galaxy, bar none, with the best equipment the Imperium has to offer. I didn't ask for the army to be an unchalengable foe, but they shouldn't be inferior to their lesser brethren, the Space Marines.
Grey Knights don't have access to Storm Shields, which really hurts them in close combat against any enemy with AP2, including those Chaos daemon monstrous creatures you mentioned before. 5++ with the amount of AP2 on the board doesn't cut it, especially when Vanilla Marines have access to 3++. Close combat, the one thing that is unarguably what Grey Knights are supposed to be best at besides the Psychic phase, and OTHER FACTIONS DO IT BETTER. And now the Culexus assassin is a super-pariah, available to everyone without any sort of troop tax, allowing other armies to shut down our Psychic phase.
Grey Knights don't have access to Vindicators, Devistator Squads, Thunderfire Cannons, Storm Talons, or a plethora of other units which would easily fill the holes.
The closest thing to a viable Grey Knight list right now is "load up on Dreadknights and Stormravens, but pay the Librarian/Terminator tax if your opponent won't play unbound". Dreadknights, Stormravens, Allies. Those are the only answers anyone seems to have for anything. Grey Knights used to have variety, now they don't, and that is bad. There's no two ways of looking at it. Dress up a turd, and it is still a turd.
Grey Knight Terminators should have access to Storm Shields. Specially commissioned by the Emperor and given by the best the Imperium of Man has to offer… it’s ridiculous that Vanilla Space Marine Terminators can outmatch them in close combat by using the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield combo. Grey Knights are supposed to be among the best at close combat, but little things like this prevent them from being able to reliably fill that role.
They're not supposed to be among the best at close combat though. They've always been a shooting army that mops the remaining enemies up in close combat. They need to be competent in melee, sure, but they are. You're complaining that Grey Knight Terminators can't kill anti-Terminator Terminators on the Vanilla Terminators home turf.
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Exergy wrote: Most codexes are like that. Terrible units completing with much better choices. I play 3 armies, DE, CSM, and IG and honestly IG comes the closest to not being 50% garbage but DE and CSM were 60-75% garbage when they were new and it hasnt gotten any better. Add to their limited choice of allies and I have very little sympathy for GK.
I can concur the same issue with Sisters. Canoness is basically useless, the Elites are useless, the Troops aren't balanced well (and are the only one in the book), the FA slot isn't bad, and Heavy Support is pretty much "take 3 Exorcists", though some people like Retributors in a Bastion (I don't agree because it's a LOT of points to make them useful, and their rending AoF works 3 times max if you take a banner and give them Jacobus, so in my book they're also useless).
So yeah, not just a GK problem.
Guys, I do believe I posted this under "40k Proposed Rules" did I not? The proper responses would be to discuss which of my proposals are good or bad, and why. Not implying that nothing needs changed because other factions have been given the shaft too (to which I reply that no other faction to my knowledge has fallen so far with a new Codex, as most factions get new units and rules that make up for the losses.
Grey Knights new rule was sacrificing Objective Secured for a 2/3 chance for each Deepstriking unit to arrive on turn 1 with full scatter. Odds are the Deepstriking units will be shot to hell before they have the chance to get into assault. Assaulting without plenty of ranged support is not a viable tactic in this edition, and no codex should have to take allies or a pure cheese list, just to stand on even footing with other armies.
many of your special rules suggestions do not have any point behind them, like "all the deep striking gks should scatter less so.." why should they scatter less? most armies do not get to scatter less? Can't you just take teleport homers and DS near them to support your own forces to scatter less?
or
These vehicles should get these upgrades because they still would not be as powerful as vehicle x.
You never compare them to what mythical vehicle it is by name, im assuming its a vehicle from a codex which most people consider is OP and not from 7th. As such, I again state the current codex is balanced against the other 7th codexes.
I have no comment on on the apoc stuff, as most apoc formations cost a lot I am not sure why you are complaining about the cost.
Your A,B,C,D list is silly.
GKs were not "a list when they came out" they were poorly designed where some things were amazing, and the other things were meh. You would have an army that could outshoot and out assault almost any army in the game. Which is mary sue, and was poorly done hence why it no longer exists that way.
In my opinion, GK shouldn't have any APCCW as they mainly fight Daemons who have no armour, instead they should ignore invulnerable saves, so they would suck against non Daemon armies like they should!
Two main considerations on the 7e GK codex:
The first is that (don't shoot me please!) I quite like the fact that psilencers are an option over psycannons, albeit small (although it's true that GKs are kind of lacking in regards to range)
The second considretion is on what befuddlesme since the last codex: Grey Knights are very well versed in deep striking; they are so good at it that the main "tactical" marines (pagk) are able to... So...
- terminators, librarians, paladins, apothecaries, brother-captains and masters may ds due to the TDA - interceptors have personal teleporters, are jump units, so they can ds
- strike squads have the ds sr even if in PA - why - for throne's sake - purgators, purifiers,techmarines, brotherhood champion and crowe can not? They have a PAand the same training just like the strike squad, but they somehow "forget" how to withstand teleportation.
Third (ok, I said two, but I thought about a third while writing), adding an option for vehicles such as:
20 points.......... May upgrade to Psychic Pilot (Mastery Level 1) (with just the sanctic primaris power)
Might have been a possible option.
- why - for throne's sake - purgators, purifiers,techmarines, brotherhood champion and crowe can not? They have a PAand the same training just like the strike squad, but they somehow "forget" how to withstand teleportation.
Its not that they don't know, its that their role no longer fits the Deep Strike rule (fluffwise). Strike Squads are supposed to be rapid deployement, hit hard and fast type of guys, whereas Purifiers are simply the super-pure warriors and the equivalent of Veterans of other cchapters in a way, and Crowe, being their leader, follows this. Techmarines and Purgators carry far too much rare, valuable or sacred items with them to risk losing in a teleportation mishap. Brotherhood Champion, no idea.
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I was wondering why you have kept the Dreadknight as a Monstrous Creature rather than the Walker it patently is............
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SGTPozy wrote: In my opinion, GK shouldn't have any APCCW as they mainly fight Daemons who have no armour, instead they should ignore invulnerable saves, so they would suck against non Daemon armies like they should!
In the Fluff they're good against everyone. Don't believe me?
“Often the need of quelling a full-blown daemonic incursion will throw the Chapter into an existing warzone, where they will be called upon to fight all manner of foes. Alien monstrosities, Xenos witches and traitor Space Marines – each fall just as easily to the sanctified Force weapons, blessed bolters and psychic might of the Grey Knights. However, these are merely a distraction from the chapter’s true purpose: the eradication of the Daemon.” (Codex: Grey Knights pg 6)
And against Daemons we already have Banishment, which can reduce their Invulnerable saves to 6+. Anything more than that would prevent Daemons from being able to face the Grey Knights at all.
But thanks to Soul Grinders, Grey Knights NEED ranged high-strengnth weapons. We used to be able to do that with Psycannons on anyone, but now the Psycannon is only useful on Relentless models. We also have nothing to counter flying Daemons. The Fluff is that the Grey Knights are good at killing Daemons, no restrictions against fliers. That could have been easily fixed if Grey Knights just had access to Missile Launchers with Flakk Missiles.
With the current rules, their only viable 2000 point list I've seen for Maelstrom is triple Dreadknights (for firepower and maneuverability), triple Storm Ravens (For anti-air and ranged high strength shots), and the Librarian/Terminators tax, flushing out a Combined Arms Detachment.
Exergy wrote: Most codexes are like that. Terrible units completing with much better choices. I play 3 armies, DE, CSM, and IG and honestly IG comes the closest to not being 50% garbage but DE and CSM were 60-75% garbage when they were new and it hasnt gotten any better. Add to their limited choice of allies and I have very little sympathy for GK.
I can concur the same issue with Sisters. Canoness is basically useless, the Elites are useless, the Troops aren't balanced well (and are the only one in the book), the FA slot isn't bad, and Heavy Support is pretty much "take 3 Exorcists", though some people like Retributors in a Bastion (I don't agree because it's a LOT of points to make them useful, and their rending AoF works 3 times max if you take a banner and give them Jacobus, so in my book they're also useless).
So yeah, not just a GK problem.
Guys, I do believe I posted this under "40k Proposed Rules" did I not? The proper responses would be to discuss which of my proposals are good or bad, and why. Not implying that nothing needs changed because other factions have been given the shaft too (to which I reply that no other faction to my knowledge has fallen so far with a new Codex, as most factions get new units and rules that make up for the losses.
While true, this is a place for discussion, and part of that discussion is pointing out that the GK aren't alone in this issue. And new units have a tendency to invalidate old builds making players unhappy too. You're looking at it with a "grass is greener" mentality when every army has growing pains of some kind when it gets a new book.
SGTPozy wrote: In my opinion, GK shouldn't have any APCCW as they mainly fight Daemons who have no armour, instead they should ignore invulnerable saves, so they would suck against non Daemon armies like they should!
In the Fluff they're good against everyone. Don't believe me?
“Often the need of quelling a full-blown daemonic incursion will throw the Chapter into an existing warzone, where they will be called upon to fight all manner of foes. Alien monstrosities, Xenos witches and traitor Space Marines – each fall just as easily to the sanctified Force weapons, blessed bolters and psychic might of the Grey Knights. However, these are merely a distraction from the chapter’s true purpose: the eradication of the Daemon.” (Codex: Grey Knights pg 6)
And against Daemons we already have Banishment, which can reduce their Invulnerable saves to 6+. Anything more than that would prevent Daemons from being able to face the Grey Knights at all.
But thanks to Soul Grinders, Grey Knights NEED ranged high-strengnth weapons. We used to be able to do that with Psycannons on anyone, but now the Psycannon is only useful on Relentless models. We also have nothing to counter flying Daemons. The Fluff is that the Grey Knights are good at killing Daemons, no restrictions against fliers. That could have been easily fixed if Grey Knights just had access to Missile Launchers with Flakk Missiles.
With the current rules, their only viable 2000 point list I've seen for Maelstrom is triple Dreadknights (for firepower and maneuverability), triple Storm Ravens (For anti-air and ranged high strength shots), and the Librarian/Terminators tax, flushing out a Combined Arms Detachment.
Even if that fluff is current, I don't think it's really a justification for them to be able to steam roll every other army in the game. They army is quite clearly designed around fighting Daemons over everything else (hence the lack of say, for example, Vindicators for siege breaking). It's the core of who they are, and they're greared pretty hard towards that.
Also, don't you have access to the standard Dreadnought options (Lascannons, Multi-meltas)? I get they compete for Elite slots, but with the expanded Elites slots for the Nemesis Strike Force, slipping in one with a Lascannon to help crack heavy armor isn't a horrible idea.
And allying the improved Vindicare can't hurt to ally in either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/08 17:51:08
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5000 
to hell. And my Chaos opponents tend to have THREE of them in every list. As for the Fluff regarding everything else, it states directly that the Grey Knights exterminate anyone who's been exposed to Chaos, so that they corruption can't take root in them. So yes, the Fluff states that the Grey Knights fight everyone else too, so they need something that works against them, for fluff and for basic decent game mechanics.
4500 
2270 (1725 painted)
329 (280ish)
705 (0)
193 (0)
165 (0)
