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This week at NOVA I stumbled upon someone's beautiful Squat army, but was disappointed to find that he was using Ultramarines rules for the lot! This worked well for his tunnellers-as-droppods, but was a bit less believable when he was using flak-and-lasgun squats as Tactical Marines. So, I was thinking, now that 7th edition has so many combinations of allies and supplements, what would be the best way of representing a Squat army.

For those who don't know, Squat armies comprised the following things:
- BROTHERHOOD SQUATS - Lots of guys roughly analogous to Guardsmen, with lasguns or sometimes bolt guns.
- EXO-SQUATS - 'Exo-armoured' elites, which could be Power or Terminator armour.
- GUILD BIKERS - Bikes, some in Exo-Armour, but most in regular flak armour (including attack bike equivalents).
- WEAPONS - Standard Imperial weaponry with a preference for plasma guns and heavy bolters, and Thudd Gun and Mole Mortar artillery.
- VEHICLES - Rhinos, Land Raiders, tunnelling machines (could be Drop Pods or Hades Drills) and some big Lord of War craziness.

I think it's got to be some combination of GEQ and MEQ codices, but here are some options:

SPACE MARINES - Use Terminators as Exo-Armour and maybe Scouts as brotherhood squats? Squats would then become S/T4, and you lose a lot of the heavy weapon options for the regular guys, but it's simple. Bikers are present but would all then be 3+ save, which would be weird (unless you only took Exo-bikes?). Drop Pods make good tunnellers. Thunderfire cannon as a Thudd Gun?
IMPERIAL GUARD - A good fit for the regular Brotherhood stuff, maybe as veterans, but no Plasma Cannons. Could take FW Quad launchers for Thudd Guns, Hades Drills for the tunnellers. Again, no good biker equivalent.
DEATH KORPS - Maybe a better fit as it increases the resolve/WS of the regular troops and gives you Mole Mortars if you take everyone as Engineers.

What do people think?

The idea I had for Squats was to use the Space Marine codex. Exo-Squats were Sternguard, and they'd use Termites instead of drop pods. Standard Brotherhood Squats would be Scout Marines, with Guild Bikers being either Space Marine or Scout Bikers. Thudd Guns as Thunderfire Cannnons was the other idea, and I'd had an Exo-Squat lead the army. My idea at the time was Pedro Kantor.

There's no direct analog. No matter what direction you go, you're going to end up having to compromise and/or run some pretty extreme "counts as" (ie lasgun squats as Spess Mahreens).

Your best bet is to convert them to be fieldable as an IGuard army. Then maybe ally in some Spess Mahreens to represent your Exo Armor guys.

You could use a Guard army for the bulk of the forces, use Sentinel or Tauros / Tauros V rules for the Guild Bikers, and then use a LotD or Inquisition detachment for your exo-armours (since Warrior Acolytes can take power armour).

Try Codex: Inquisition. Acolytes (which have guardsman stats) can be equipped with Flak, Carapace or Power Armour. You can give them Laspistols, Chainswords, Boltguns or Hotshot Lasguns and you can upgrade 3 per unit to have Plasma, Melta, Flamer, Power weapons, Stormshields etc. Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimeras, Landraiders and Valkyries are all available as Dedicated Transports.

There is no option for artillery or bikes, but that's why you go Unbound. All the Imperium armies are Battle Brothers with each other, so just pick and choose from any of the Imperial codices.

I feel like Squats should be tough little buggers, so S4T4 Scouts is fine. I think they were T4 back in the day anyway. It is giving them infiltrate/scout that worries me. I am happy enough for the bikes to get their 3+ save though.

Not completely sold on this idea, but it has some merit.

Yeah, but T4 meant something different in 2e, which was the last set of stats we had - Canonesses and Farseers were also T4 back then.

Because they were characters. Characters were generally more powerful back then, but most grunts have remained the same.

Only Marines have become tougher for non-characters, I think.

This might be a slight deviation, and they have no bikes (nor the regular tanks)

But what about Admech?

AdMech could work quite well. The Thallax could be the bikers (tougher, and faster as they are jet infantry). The various battle-automata would be the tanks. Myrmidons could be the exo-armor. Tech-thralls, however, are a bit too weak to be squats. Perhaps some allies to fill in for that purpose.

Why not IG for the Brotherhood and SM allies for the tough guys?

Straight-up Ultras counts-as is a bit too generous. I think DKoK Siege list is a really good match, with bikes as Death Riders and termites as Hades. Nothing says the exo-armor guys have to be power armor; Grenadiers would fit fine. But, if he wants a 3+ or better, some allied marines would work, too. Possibly convert the plasma cannons to be useable on the exo-armor and roll primary CAD DKoK with Dark angels allies?

Dark, stoic, and brooding, with a penchant for tunneling sounds about right for Space Dwarfs!

tgjensen wrote:
Because they were characters. Characters were generally more powerful back then, but most grunts have remained the same.

Absolutely.

Comparing 2E statlines with the modern game is an exercise in futility for character models. This was an edition where the Assault Cannon was a fully auto krak missile launcher, and you could theoretically bump a Chaos Lord to WS10. 3rd Edition saw a decrease in the overall strength of weapons, and the comparative WS & BS of models. As well as vast changes to how characters were fielded and unit targeting worked.

The mechanics to the game were also vastly different. 2nd Edition 40K is an entirely different set of mechanics to 3rd Edition and beyond.

That said yes, very few "basic" stat lines changed in the rollover. Squats would probably still be S3/T4 by virtue that Guardsmen remained S3/T3, Eldar Guardians S3/T3, Ork Boyz remained S3/T4, Space Marines stayed S4/T4, etc. The mechanics for 3rd Edition were designed around those baseline stats for Troops and the characters and elites brought down accordingly since shooting no longer had "to hit" modifiers and hand to hand was no longer a direct contest between models.

Modern S3/T3 Guardsmen would be the best equivalent for Squats, given their nearly identical armor and armament. Your individual Squats would be a little weaker. But, then again, they'd also be a little cheaper. It's just a bit too much of a stretch to represent these guys with S4/T4, bolters and power armor, lol.

I think you have to focus in on the aspect of the Squats you want to represent. In general I'd say for the majority of squat themes building it based on the marine codex is the best way to go. You only miss out on using squats with lasguns, but if you really want that you can always take guard allies. Given the flimsiness of carapace armors representation in RT you could probably get away with calling those models scouts with shotguns.

Some additional Epic 40K units to consider:
Stormtalon = Iron Eagle
Stormraven = Overlord Airship
Thunderfire Cannon = Thunderfire cannon

I don't feel squats, as a whole, were ever quite Space Marine Equivalent.

Like other people have previously suggested, in 7th edition, I think the best way to go is Astra Militarum with Space Marine battle brothers for the exo armored squats.

I think so too. Bikes as Rough Riders, maybe?

I think Scout and Scout Bikers would make a pretty decent stand-in for the non-exo armored Squat and Squat Bikers. It boils down to what Squat units you really want at the center of your army. Will it be defined by the basic troop or predominantly by their toys and support units.

Scouts are not the best fit for the basic squat troops, nor are Space Marine tactical squads.... but they're workable. When you look at all the other RT era and Epic miniatures those models align with Marines more often than they align with any other Imperial army.

Perhaps using the Stats for Tempestus, with IG or SM Allies for particular units, also the inquisition specifically henchmen could be a solution since they could have a humans toughness with your choice of armor from Flak to power armor as you need. The Selection of vehicle is broad(Steam Chimeras, Helicopter Valkyries Etc) and certain inquisitors(Squat Leaders) can take Terminator Armor if you like, also hammers and shields to give them a squat "feel" You can base Squat special weapons on inquisitorial relic rules(Flintlock Flame Pistols Etc) ,and heavily converted GW Dwarves using Green Stuff or slice up Guardsmen for torso armor and use SM shoulder pads to represent them if you wanna keep them GW tourney and store legit.

You can do quite a good job of representing them with Orks. They are the right strength, toughness and weapon skill. Have good bikes, 2+ armour units and can be done just about as shooty as you like.

Squats could be played straight-up IG.

Exo-Squats - Ogryns. Readily done.
Trike / Bike - Make a big 4 wheel buggy (Hellhound) with a pintle as the big gun rather than a turret.
Mole-mortar - Plain old mortars used.
Termite - Not quite sure what to do with this, may need to make "Exo-Squats" with marine stats and use the drop-pod rules.

Look at this Dakka thread for some inspiration for the models:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/586811.page

Thanks guys!

aka_mythos wrote:I think Scout and Scout Bikers would make a pretty decent stand-in for the non-exo armored Squat and Squat Bikers. It boils down to what Squat units you really want at the center of your army. Will it be defined by the basic troop or predominantly by their toys and support units. Scouts are not the best fit for the basic squat troops, nor are Space Marine tactical squads.... but they're workable. When you look at all the other RT era and Epic miniatures those models align with Marines more often than they align with any other Imperial army.

aka_mythos wrote:I think you have to focus in on the aspect of the Squats you want to represent. In general I'd say for the majority of squat themes building it based on the marine codex is the best way to go. You only miss out on using squats with lasguns, but if you really want that you can always take guard allies. Given the flimsiness of carapace armors representation in RT you could probably get away with calling those models scouts with shotguns.

Brother SRM wrote:The idea I had for Squats was to use the Space Marine codex. Exo-Squats were Sternguard, and they'd use Termites instead of drop pods. Standard Brotherhood Squats would be Scout Marines, with Guild Bikers being either Space Marine or Scout Bikers. Thudd Guns as Thunderfire Cannnons was the other idea, and I'd had an Exo-Squat lead the army. My idea at the time was Pedro Kantor.

Some flavour of Space Marines are certainly the closest for many troop types. As all of you say, it means using Scouts as the basic brotherhood guys, which at least allows you to make passable assault and boltgun units out of them. The downsides are that you lose a lot of special weapon access (no regular squats with Plasmaguns) and the Squat attack bikes would be 3+ save where the normal (scout) bikes would be 4+. Not sure if there's an analog for mole mortars?

AegisGrimm wrote:Bikes as Rough Riders, maybe?

Actually, this is one of my pet peeves in counts-as armies. I'd say one of the most confusing things for your opponent is swapping unit types (Exodite dragons as jet bikes, etc). I think the bikes would make most sense if they stay as Bikes.

Sonsoftherock wrote:
You can do quite a good job of representing them with Orks. They are the right strength, toughness and weapon skill. Have good bikes, 2+ armour units and can be done just about as shooty as you like.

Yeah, I've heard this before, but you also have to deal with low BS, low Ld, and all of the other Orky things. Also, you're running an army obviously equipped with Imperial weapons, which then all count as Ork weapons. I think this might be more confusing for the opponent. Best to stick to Imperial armies for WYSIWYG?

Talizvar wrote:Look at this Dakka thread for some inspiration for the models:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/586811.page

Actually, I really like that PLOG. But it brings up an interesting point. If I was scratch-building 'my' version of Squats, then of course it would be easier to make them count as whatever I want. I guess the question is "how do I represent the old RT squat army best?".

adamsouza wrote:I don't feel squats, as a whole, were ever quite Space Marine Equivalent. Like other people have previously suggested, in 7th edition, I think the best way to go is Astra Militarum with Space Marine battle brothers for the exo armored squats.

Insane Smile wrote:Why not IG for the Brotherhood and SM allies for the tough guys?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your best bet is to convert them to be fieldable as an IGuard army. Then maybe ally in some Spess Mahreens to represent your Exo Armor guys.

Yeah, I think this is almost certainly the best option, it's just the stats difference between the bikers, eco-squats and regular guys that might be annoying for the opponent. So, you have regular squats as guardsmen, exo-squats as terminators, and bikers as scout bikers? This makes regular squats (WS/BS/S/T) 3/3/3/3, then when they get on a bike, they become 3/3/4/5, then when they become hearth guard they're 4/4/4/4. I guess that's not too bad.

Brotherhood Squats - Infantry Platoons
Bikers - Scout Bikes
Exo-Squats - Terminators or just Power Armour guys?
Termites - Drop Pods or Hades Drills
Ancestor Lord - Primaris Psyker or Librarian?
Rhinos, Land Raiders - no change
Thudd Guns - Quad Launchers
Mole Mortars - regular Mortar squad in an infantry platoon.

MEQ or TEQ for Exo-Squats? I like the idea of them being ridiculously tough, and the original exo-squats had power axes and stuff, so Terminator Armour might be the best equivalent. BUT, if we used them as Power Armour, then Exo-Squat bikes become available. I like the idea above of using them as Sternguard in this instance..

If using TEQ, then we'd probably want to stick with the Champions of Fenris detachment to get Terminators in Drop Pods without having to take any Troops from the SM side of the army - or is there a better way?

Also, what Psychic Powers do we think would fit best? The old Squat ones were very powerful but mostly defensive - force domes and the like.


..

I say go for the power armour. If you want axes, you can always use Vanguard or Honour Guard.

As for psi... sounds like Telekinesis.

I'd side with MEQ as well. As you mentioned it would make more sense for the bikers. If you really want a 2+ save for a HQ marines already have a non-terminator option for that.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Thanks guys!

aka_mythos wrote:I think Scout and Scout Bikers would make a pretty decent stand-in for the non-exo armored Squat and Squat Bikers. It boils down to what Squat units you really want at the center of your army. Will it be defined by the basic troop or predominantly by their toys and support units. Scouts are not the best fit for the basic squat troops, nor are Space Marine tactical squads.... but they're workable. When you look at all the other RT era and Epic miniatures those models align with Marines more often than they align with any other Imperial army.

aka_mythos wrote:I think you have to focus in on the aspect of the Squats you want to represent. In general I'd say for the majority of squat themes building it based on the marine codex is the best way to go. You only miss out on using squats with lasguns, but if you really want that you can always take guard allies. Given the flimsiness of carapace armors representation in RT you could probably get away with calling those models scouts with shotguns.

Brother SRM wrote:The idea I had for Squats was to use the Space Marine codex. Exo-Squats were Sternguard, and they'd use Termites instead of drop pods. Standard Brotherhood Squats would be Scout Marines, with Guild Bikers being either Space Marine or Scout Bikers. Thudd Guns as Thunderfire Cannnons was the other idea, and I'd had an Exo-Squat lead the army. My idea at the time was Pedro Kantor.

Some flavour of Space Marines are certainly the closest for many troop types. As all of you say, it means using Scouts as the basic brotherhood guys, which at least allows you to make passable assault and boltgun units out of them. The downsides are that you lose a lot of special weapon access (no regular squats with Plasmaguns) and the Squat attack bikes would be 3+ save where the normal (scout) bikes would be 4+. Not sure if there's an analog for mole mortars?

If you're willing to play as an unbound army you could use Space Wolf scouts who can take special weapons. As far as a mole mortar analog goes, the Death Korp of Krieg "mole launcher" is pretty much suppose to be the same thing, but its the problem of mutual exclusivity where emphasizing that will force out other possibilities. I imagine you'd do DKoK + marines?

The above is the reason you have to zero in on the aspect of the Squats you want. The way I see it, unless you're playing really high point games you're not gonna be able to play with everything anyway. Rather than try to find a stand-in codex for everything, make the armylist you want to play and figure out which Codex or combination of codices allows that most easily. If you use marines you end up with a very elite sort of Squat army, but if you go IG you end up with a lot of end run and imperfect representations for the sake of the troops.

Another aspect is how much is gonna be converting and how much is this an attempt to stick to vintage minis? The unfortunate reality is that some units that existed may not have a way you can use them. Other units you could use, but you'd have to go out of your way to do so and would to the exclusion of taking other "squat" units.

Squats are basically Guard-like troops with the elite toys of the Space Marines. I think any "Squat" army is going to use some portion of the Marine codex especially for their vehicles, artillery, and flyers. I think if I were playing Squats I would use a combination of Inquisition and Space Marines. The Inquisition gives you the flexibility to go crazy with some of the option the Squats had while also allowing you to build anything from a very basic almost IG squad to something more imaginative and mounting them in Rhinos which were what Squats could take. I'd then use the Marine codex for Thunderfire cannons, which the Squats had in Epic, Stormtalons as Iron Eagles, and an HQ on bike with other bikes as troops and then some scout bikes.

An inspired thread! I really like in particular:

Inquisition - this is great. I think Acoyltes with fancy gear and especially Crusaders really fit the Squats. For Crusaders, I'm reminded of the 1st ed Exo-Armour with Power Axe miniature. The other upside is, both in lore and in reality, Squats are rare; their homeworld got blown up and their minis are limited or will need to be converted. Having a small force of them, as the last survivors off-world, makes a lot of fluff and pragmatic sense.

Death Korps of Krieg Engineers - also a great choice, for the reasons OP outlined. Mole Mortars in particular, but also their playing style.

The other ideas are also good, but the =][= and DKK Engineers really intrigue me, as they're not used in my local meta at least, and it's an interesting way to use those rulesets. If I used Squats as MEQ, which everyone here plays, my opponent may be like "ok, now I have to forget some things I'm used to as to accommodate you." If I used Squats as something totally new to them but supported by existing official rules, he'd be like "ok! This is very different but backed by rules, I want to play this!"

Sonsoftherock wrote:
You can do quite a good job of representing them with Orks. They are the right strength, toughness and weapon skill. Have good bikes, 2+ armour units and can be done just about as shooty as you like.

My thoughts as well...S3 T4, lotsa Dakka, Exoarmor? Meganobz... Build them using Deathskulls(?) They use Imperial gear... Even the ally rules should work "right" They are abhumans, so the rest of the Empire doesn't trust them...