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Generally speaking which are better to take as transport options and why, and specifically as it relates to Grey Knights?

Seems like in terms of using transports as a means to get from A to Z with cargo efficiently, Rhinos are better than Rhazorbacks, and Landraiders are better than Stormravens.

But in terms of flexibility and maybe overall efficient use of points to get additional combat use from the transports, Rhazorbacks and Stormravens seem better.

Is this an accurate assessment, or am I off?

They serve very different battlefield roles.

Rhinos are a very efficient way to ferry around squads of ten guys and provide moderate protection. These are good for getting your Tac and Sternguard squads where they need to go.

Drop Pods are very efficient at placing infantry squads at basically any location on the board on turn 1 (allowing you to immediately get right up in your opponent's face and deliver an alpha strike).

Razorbacks are a good choice if you're taking minimum sized squads, or are using a mechanized list. You'll see these in a lot of lists when players only have two 5 man tac squads. They're a good choice if you want to take a lot of light tanks (they don't compete for FOC slots). Their transport function clashes with their fire support function, since you snap fire if you move it more than 6" in a turn.

The three Land Raider variants serve as durable assault transports, with very good firepower (don't discount that). Assault Terminators take best advantage of these, but they're a decent choice for moving around regular power armor dudes if you have free FOC slots for them.

Stormravens are mostly used as gunships, a function which can clash with their other use as a transport - what you want to shoot at, and where you want to deliver your cargo are often not near each other. It's an okay platform for delivering Assault Terminators and melee dreadnoughts.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
They serve very different battlefield roles.

Rhinos are a very efficient way to ferry around squads of ten guys and provide moderate protection. These are good for getting your Tac and Sternguard squads where they need to go.

Drop Pods are very efficient at placing infantry squads at basically any location on the board on turn 1 (allowing you to immediately get right up in your opponent's face and deliver an alpha strike).

Razorbacks are a good choice if you're taking minimum sized squads, or are using a mechanized list. You'll see these in a lot of lists when players only have two 5 man tac squads. They're a good choice if you want to take a lot of light tanks (they don't compete for FOC slots). Their transport function clashes with their fire support function, since you snap fire if you move it more than 6" in a turn.

The three Land Raider variants serve as durable assault transports, with very good firepower (don't discount that). Assault Terminators take best advantage of these, but they're a decent choice for moving around regular power armor dudes if you have free FOC slots for them.

Stormravens are mostly used as gunships, a function which can clash with their other use as a transport - what you want to shoot at, and where you want to deliver your cargo are often not near each other. It's an okay platform for delivering Assault Terminators and melee dreadnoughts.

Awesome feedback, thanks good information here. I was specifically wondering how you think this applies to Grey Knights and the updated list at the bottom of this thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614298.page#7188959

What do you think?

Grey Knights vehicles are now identical to Space Marine vehicles, so the calculus doesn't change much.

The main difference is that Land Raiders have very good synergy with Grey Knights, as their basic troops are assault-focused, and can take Land Raiders as dedicated transports (objective secured AV14 tanks).

Storm Ravens are sort of a mixed bag. They are Grey Knight's best source of AP2 firepower, and so probably shouldn't be bogged down ferrying around troops (who could just deep strike anyhow). The Stormraven's Dreadnought transport capability is also much less valuable, given how overpriced Grey Knight Dreadnoughts are.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Grey Knights vehicles are now identical to Space Marine vehicles, so the calculus doesn't change much.

The main difference is that Land Raiders have very good synergy with Grey Knights, as their basic troops are assault-focused, and can take Land Raiders as dedicated transports (objective secured AV14 tanks).

Storm Ravens are sort of a mixed bag. They are Grey Knight's best source of AP2 firepower, and so probably shouldn't be bogged down ferrying around troops (who could just deep strike anyhow). The Stormraven's Dreadnought transport capability is also much less valuable, given how overpriced Grey Knight Dreadnoughts are.

What do you think about this list then:

HQ
Librarian ML 3 with Domina Liber Daemonica (roll Sanctic for another Cleansing Flame, and Gate to Infinity or Sanctuary, Deep Strike)
Kaldor Draigo

TROOPS
5x Terminators with 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemon Hammer (Deep Strike)

ELITES
5x Purifiers A with 2x Incinerators 1x Daemon Hammer (loaded into Rhazorback A)
5x Purifiers C with 2x Incinerators (loaded into Rhazorback B)
5x Purifiers D with 2x Incinerators (loaded into Stormraven)
5x Purifiers E with 2x Incinerators (attached to Kaldor Draigo)

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Rhazorback A with TL Lascannon
Rhazorback B with TL Lascannon

FAST ATTACK
Stormraven with Twin-linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Nemesis Dreadknight A with Gatling Psilencer, Nemesis Great Sword
Nemesis Dreadknight B with Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Personal Teleporter

Purifier squads loaded into Rhazorbacks and Draigo's Purifier squad start on field backed up by Nemesis Dreadknight B. Librarian's Terminator squad, Purifier squad in Stormraven, and Nemesis Dreadknight A in reserves.

Should I replace the Rhazorbacks and Stormraven for Rhinos and a Landraider?

There's no h in Razorback.

My thoughts on the list generally is:

Four purifier squads is sort of overkill. You're not generating enough warp points to be able to reliably cast Cleaning Flame four times AND have points left over for your Librarian and Draigo to use. You might want to instead take squads of 10, and then break them up into combat squads. Drop the Razorbacks, give one squad of Purifiers a rhino, and give the other Purifiers a Land Raider (buy it as a dedicated transport for the Terminator Squad, so that it doesn't eat up heavy support slots). If you're strapped for points, drop the land raider in favor of another Stormraven, or more infantry (if you're using a regular FOC, take a third Dreadknight).

Your Dreadknights should both have personal teleporters. They need them to get around the table. If you have the points, it's okay to take three.

Keep the Stormraven, it's serving an important function as a gunship. You can also load purifiers onto this, instead of giving them a dedicated transport.

Anyhow, the Razorbacks are not a terrible idea, but if you're spamming purifiers you really need to get them close to the enemy (and lascannons razorbacks really ought to stay farther back to avoid getting shot at). Take a look at some of the Grey Knights lists in the army list forums.

Seems like a good list with a lot of tools in its toolbox, so to speak.

In fact, I like everything about it except for some grammatical/semantic stuff:

It's spelled Razorback. Not Rhazorback.

Draigo is a Lord of War, not an HQ. Again, this is not super-relevant b/c you have another HQ in the Librarian, but just be careful because that guy no longer fulfills your HQ slot in a Detachment. Some people might also not be interested in playing against a LoW, but that seems to be going away now that the slot is not solely composed of SuperHeavy tanks and Titans.

That being said, I like using Razorbacks as extra gun platforms. Since you can get at least half the purifiers in close without them, maybe they are better suited to staying out of range and making good use of the 48" lascannon. Meanwhile the unit that bought them as DTs can claim objectives or sit back waiting to throw their weight in when the Termies come around. Libby could also GoI squad A if you want to leave the Termies out on their own.

Wave Serpents are good transports. Terrible against Cryx tho.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
There's no h in Razorback.

My thoughts on the list generally is:

Four purifier squads is sort of overkill. You're not generating enough warp points to be able to reliably cast Cleaning Flame four times AND have points left over for your Librarian and Draigo to use. You might want to instead take squads of 10, and then break them up into combat squads. Drop the Razorbacks, give one squad of Purifiers a rhino, and give the other Purifiers a Land Raider (buy it as a dedicated transport for the Terminator Squad, so that it doesn't eat up heavy support slots). If you're strapped for points, drop the land raider in favor of another Stormraven, or more infantry (if you're using a regular FOC, take a third Dreadknight).

Your Dreadknights should both have personal teleporters. They need them to get around the table. If you have the points, it's okay to take three.

Keep the Stormraven, it's serving an important function as a gunship. You can also load purifiers onto this, instead of giving them a dedicated transport.

This is awesome information thanks! Okay, revised list again taking your advice into consideration:

HQ
Librarian ML 3 with Domina Liber Daemonica (roll Sanctic for another Cleansing Flame, and Gate to Infinity or Sanctuary, Deep Strike)

LOW
Kaldor Draigo (attached to Purifier C)

TROOPS
5x Terminators with 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemon Hammer (Deep Strike)

ELITES
5x Purifiers A with 2x Incinerators (loaded into Rhino)
5x Purifiers B with 2x Incinerators (loaded into Rhino)
5x Purifiers C with 2x Incinerators (attached to Kaldor Draigo)

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Stormraven A with Twin-linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta
Stormraven B with Twin-linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Nemesis Dreadknight A with Gatling Psilencer, Nemesis Great Sword, Personal Teleporter
Nemesis Dreadknight B with Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Personal Teleporter

Only Librarian's Terminator squad and the two Stormravens in reserve, the rest on the battlefield. Have so many separate Purifier squads as opposed to combat squads is because each separate squad is ML2 and adds another 2 die to my psychic phase... have 14 die presently.

Thoughts now? I would like to use Razorbacks with TL Lascannons, but I agree they had conflicting roles with the long range weaponry and close-combat troops.

tSygna wrote:
[Have so many separate Purifier squads as opposed to combat squads is because each separate squad is ML2 and adds another 2 die to my psychic phase... have 14 die presently.

But when you split them into combat squads, don't you get effectively twice as many psychic dice per FOC slot? Not that it matters in this case, but I understand that each half of the combat squad (now treated as two seperate units) would generate 2 WC dice, anyway. You know, just in case you wanted to load 4x incinerators into a rhino or something

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

tSygna wrote:
[Have so many separate Purifier squads as opposed to combat squads is because each separate squad is ML2 and adds another 2 die to my psychic phase... have 14 die presently.

But when you split them into combat squads, don't you get effectively twice as many psychic dice per FOC slot? Not that it matters in this case, but I understand that each half of the combat squad (now treated as two seperate units) would generate 2 WC dice, anyway. You know, just in case you wanted to load 4x incinerators into a rhino or something

Are you sure that works that way with combat squads?

Lolz! Loyalist are spoiled for options! For csm, its rhino or the schizophrenic landraider.

I think razor back is better since you loyalist can combat squad split the heavy team and transport the assault team. Assault cannons snap shotting is still good!

I thing storm raven is better than land raider because it flies! Can shoot down other flyers easier!

tSygna wrote:

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

tSygna wrote:
[Have so many separate Purifier squads as opposed to combat squads is because each separate squad is ML2 and adds another 2 die to my psychic phase... have 14 die presently.

But when you split them into combat squads, don't you get effectively twice as many psychic dice per FOC slot? Not that it matters in this case, but I understand that each half of the combat squad (now treated as two seperate units) would generate 2 WC dice, anyway. You know, just in case you wanted to load 4x incinerators into a rhino or something

Are you sure that works that way with combat squads?

I'll post the YDMC thread about this so as not to bog down this one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612857.page#7162071
In short: yeah, I'm pretty sure it works that way with combat squads.

Also, I would have thought that a new codex DESIGNED WITH THE NEWEST EDITION IN MIND, not to mention the BRB itself, could have addressed this with a single sentence in either the Combat Squad OR Brotherhood of Psykers entries.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

tSygna wrote:

 SkrawnyNob wrote:

tSygna wrote:
[Have so many separate Purifier squads as opposed to combat squads is because each separate squad is ML2 and adds another 2 die to my psychic phase... have 14 die presently.

But when you split them into combat squads, don't you get effectively twice as many psychic dice per FOC slot? Not that it matters in this case, but I understand that each half of the combat squad (now treated as two seperate units) would generate 2 WC dice, anyway. You know, just in case you wanted to load 4x incinerators into a rhino or something

Are you sure that works that way with combat squads?

I'll post the YDMC thread about this so as not to bog down this one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612857.page#7162071
In short: yeah, I'm pretty sure it works that way with combat squads.

Also, I would have thought that a new codex DESIGNED WITH THE NEWEST EDITION IN MIND, not to mention the BRB itself, could have addressed this with a single sentence in either the Combat Squad OR Brotherhood of Psykers entries.

If you read Combat Squad it does. Just like last edition, when you combat squad they are treat as 2 unique units for all rule purposes. VP, special rules, OS, moral checks, etc, this would by default include Brotherhood of Psychers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tSygna wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
There's no h in Razorback.

My thoughts on the list generally is:

Four purifier squads is sort of overkill. You're not generating enough warp points to be able to reliably cast Cleaning Flame four times AND have points left over for your Librarian and Draigo to use. You might want to instead take squads of 10, and then break them up into combat squads. Drop the Razorbacks, give one squad of Purifiers a rhino, and give the other Purifiers a Land Raider (buy it as a dedicated transport for the Terminator Squad, so that it doesn't eat up heavy support slots). If you're strapped for points, drop the land raider in favor of another Stormraven, or more infantry (if you're using a regular FOC, take a third Dreadknight).

Your Dreadknights should both have personal teleporters. They need them to get around the table. If you have the points, it's okay to take three.

Keep the Stormraven, it's serving an important function as a gunship. You can also load purifiers onto this, instead of giving them a dedicated transport.

This is awesome information thanks! Okay, revised list again taking your advice into consideration:

HQ
Librarian ML 3 with Domina Liber Daemonica (roll Sanctic for another Cleansing Flame, and Gate to Infinity or Sanctuary, Deep Strike)

LOW
Kaldor Draigo (attached to Purifier C)

TROOPS
5x Terminators with 1x Psycannon, 1x Daemon Hammer (Deep Strike)

ELITES
5x Purifiers A with 2x Incinerators (loaded into Rhino)
5x Purifiers B with 2x Incinerators (loaded into Rhino)
5x Purifiers C with 2x Incinerators (attached to Kaldor Draigo)

DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Stormraven A with Twin-linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta
Stormraven B with Twin-linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta

HEAVY SUPPORT
Nemesis Dreadknight A with Gatling Psilencer, Nemesis Great Sword, Personal Teleporter
Nemesis Dreadknight B with Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Personal Teleporter

Only Librarian's Terminator squad and the two Stormravens in reserve, the rest on the battlefield. Have so many separate Purifier squads as opposed to combat squads is because each separate squad is ML2 and adds another 2 die to my psychic phase... have 14 die presently.

Thoughts now? I would like to use Razorbacks with TL Lascannons, but I agree they had conflicting roles with the long range weaponry and close-combat troops.

If you want good close fire support Razorbacks, the Assault cannon and the Heavy Flamer can be very nice.

I vote razorbacks and landraiders. Gives the option to combat squad, which secures three objectives for each razorback and unit plus razorback can lay down extra fire with psycannons. Land raiders just because they will put pressure on an opponent and cause them to move their troops how you want him/her to move them to avoid it. I'd rather have that pressure than wait til turn 2 or maybe later for a stormraven.