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Would you guys say in terms of military intellect, strategic intellect and being a commander Macharius is as good if not a better leader then Horus and the other Primarchs

LightKing wrote:
Would you guys say in terms of military intellect, strategic intellect and being a commander Macharius is as good if not a better leader then Horus and the other Primarchs

I wouldnt

No.

He was very good for a human sure, but not up to Horus level. Maybe on par with other primarchs but only the crazy ones.

He demonstrably was. Given that his conquests and Horus' both fell apart afterward, they might be compared more closely than to the other Primarchs.

Pre or post demonic posession for the Traitor Primarchs? Dominion of Fire lasted two hundred years and 70 sectors, taking decades to get back. And that was just Angron.

Yes, Macharius was probably roughly as good as Horus strategically.

Had he been commanding Space Marines, he would have conquered far more than he did. He only stopped because his men could go no further.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yes, Macharius was probably roughly as good as Horus strategically.

Had he been commanding Space Marines, he would have conquered far more than he did. He only stopped because his men could go no further.

And then he wiped manly tears of blood

The Imperium consists of roughly one million worlds. The Imperium was forged during the Great Crusade, which lasted 200 years. It was primarily conducted by 18 Primarchs. That is, on average, 55,555.56 worlds per Primarch. If we assume that they all were active for all 200 years - which they certainly weren't - then they each conquered, on average, 277.78 worlds per year, or almost 2000 worlds in a seven year span. Horus and the Luna Wolves conquered more worlds than anyone save perhaps the Ultramarines, so he was certainly above this average.

Macharius managed nearly one thousand worlds in seven years. Macharius also was Lord Commander Solar, which means - if I understand my fictitious military ranks correctly - that he commanded the full forces of the Imperial Guard stationed in the entire Segmentum Solar. That is military power that seems to me to be at least on par with what any of the Primarchs ever commanded, save Horus as Warmaster.

In short: No, he was not as good as Horus.

Horus was a superhuman, so I don't see how Macharius ever could hope to be as good as him. That said, there's probably a point where you are good enough to overwhelm all resistance - especially when you command probably the greatest unified fighting force in the galaxy at the time - and any "additional" strategic genius gives rapidly diminishing returns.

I like the maths, but you ignore the fact that the Primarchs had far better equipment (fresh and new as opposed to 10,000 years old) and were commanding legions of space marines.

Given a legion, Macharius could have done at least as well.

Besides, Horus wasn't chosen as Warmaster because he was the best strategic commander of space marine legions or planetary conquest. That was only one part of his job.

 PhillyT wrote:
I like the maths, but you ignore the fact that the Primarchs had far better equipment (fresh and new as opposed to 10,000 years old) and were commanding legions of space marines.

Given a legion, Macharius could have done at least as well.

As a matter of fact, according to the Lexicanum page on the Macharian Crusade he was accompanied by Space Marines. Granted, only three known chapters are listed. They would probably still remain effective shock troops though.

However, you gloss over the fact that a legion of Space Marines is a ridiculously small number of soldiers for space conquest. If you want to take worlds at the breakneck speeds that the Primarchs did - a new one almost every day! - you need to split your fleet multiple times over. There's a limit to how many times a Legion can be split and remain capable of actually conquering planets and enforcing a new rule. That's what the Imperial Guard is for - which Macharius had in abundance. The shock tactics that Space Marines are suited for - storming governors' palaces, destroying defense installations and such - could probably be carried out well enough by the Chapters Macharius had at his disposal.

 PhillyT wrote:
Besides, Horus wasn't chosen as Warmaster because he was the best strategic commander of space marine legions or planetary conquest. That was only one part of his job.

I certainly agree there. Still, I am not sure what your point is. Horus still did a better job pre-Warmaster status with much fewer troops. Remember that in the Imperium's nascence they did not have nearly as many planets to claim tithe from, and having split the available forces into 18 fleets, logically the armies under each Primarch must have been a whole lot smaller than what Macharius had available.

tgjensen wrote:
The Imperium consists of roughly one million worlds. The Imperium was forged during the Great Crusade, which lasted 200 years. It was primarily conducted by 18 Primarchs. That is, on average, 55,555.56 worlds per Primarch. If we assume that they all were active for all 200 years - which they certainly weren't - then they each conquered, on average, 277.78 worlds per year, or almost 2000 worlds in a seven year span. Horus and the Luna Wolves conquered more worlds than anyone save perhaps the Ultramarines, so he was certainly above this average.

Horus was also the first primarch found, and he was out conquering worlds 30 years before any of the other primarchs were found.

Add to this that conquring words in 30k was more difficult than it is in 40k. There were a number of advanced xeno and human empires out there that did not want to be conquered. The far fringes of segmentum solar were easy to conquer in comparison.

Macharius is Alexander the Great.

 Exergy wrote:
Horus was also the first primarch found, and he was out conquering worlds 30 years before any of the other primarchs were found.

That just means Horus was at it for probably almost the full 200 years, which is what I based my maths on. It was the other Primarchs that logically must have done a much smaller part due to not being around as much - which means that, if anything, Horus conquered even more worlds.

 Exergy wrote:
Add to this that conquring words in 30k was more difficult than it is in 40k. There were a number of advanced xeno and human empires out there that did not want to be conquered. The far fringes of segmentum solar were easy to conquer in comparison.

There were a lot of xenos around that didn't want to be conquered when Macharius executed his campaign, too - as there still are at the end of the 41st millennium. My impression is that these worlds he took hadn't previously been held by Imperial forces. So I don't think we have any reason to suspect they were any less resistant than what the Primarchs met.

tgjensen wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
I like the maths, but you ignore the fact that the Primarchs had far better equipment (fresh and new as opposed to 10,000 years old) and were commanding legions of space marines.

Given a legion, Macharius could have done at least as well.

As a matter of fact, according to the Lexicanum page on the Macharian Crusade he was accompanied by Space Marines. Granted, only three known chapters are listed. They would probably still remain effective shock troops though.

However, you gloss over the fact that a legion of Space Marines is a ridiculously small number of soldiers for space conquest. If you want to take worlds at the breakneck speeds that the Primarchs did - a new one almost every day! - you need to split your fleet multiple times over. There's a limit to how many times a Legion can be split and remain capable of actually conquering planets and enforcing a new rule. That's what the Imperial Guard is for - which Macharius had in abundance. The shock tactics that Space Marines are suited for - storming governors' palaces, destroying defense installations and such - could probably be carried out well enough by the Chapters Macharius had at his disposal.

 PhillyT wrote:
Besides, Horus wasn't chosen as Warmaster because he was the best strategic commander of space marine legions or planetary conquest. That was only one part of his job.

I certainly agree there. Still, I am not sure what your point is. Horus still did a better job pre-Warmaster status with much fewer troops. Remember that in the Imperium's nascence they did not have nearly as many planets to claim tithe from, and having split the available forces into 18 fleets, logically the armies under each Primarch must have been a whole lot smaller than what Macharius had available.

In many cases though it wasn't so much hard fighting that the legions were doing, nor are the million world or even Macharius' 1000 worlds truely accurate. They are just numbers for big and lots.

My point with Horus is that it was multiple commanders in multiple areas, with better equipment, troops, and opportunities. Macharius did it with far less nd was able to push similar numbers.

I think he was comparably as good as Horus, but really, grand military strategy isn't necessarily the bag for Primarchs. In many cases, Primarchs met their legion "in fight" as in after they had already begun conquering worlds. Some legions, like The World Eaters, it was subordinates that were doing the planning and execution (thoguh that is as likely Angron's fault as anything else).

I am not trying to diminish Horus, I am just saying Macharius is pretty much his equal. There is only ever going to be so much that a commander can do on the strategic level.

As far as the Great Crusade itself, the very idea of 30,000 marines conquoring much of anything is very far fetched! But it is fantasy!

Id say he was much better since he was working with sub par troops.

gilamonster wrote:
Id say he was much better since he was working with sub par troops.

he commanded multiple space marine chapters and 7 guard armies of enormous size

Yes he did, but he didn't have fully equipped and trained Space Marine legions, which are several magnitudes more potent than guard armies and a handful of modern chapters.

While true, I am still firmly of the belief that the Primarchs turned out to be better conquerors. Those numbers, man!

I guess my point is Macharius was never beaten, nor was Horus during his conquest. I think they are comparable enough to call it a wash given the information presented in the fluff.

Plus Macharius is based of Alexander the Great, generally (though probably inappropriately) considered the greatest general in the ancient world.

 PhillyT wrote:
Yes he did, but he didn't have fully equipped and trained Space Marine legions, which are several magnitudes more potent than guard armies and a handful of modern chapters.

nor were the objects of his conquest that hard. Horus commanded an attack against the largest ork empire recorded in human history. He needed those forces to take on harder targets.

But a lot of those planets capitulated on contact. Many of the supposed conquests were human worlds who essentially gave up when contacted by Earth for the first time in millennium.

 Exergy wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yes he did, but he didn't have fully equipped and trained Space Marine legions, which are several magnitudes more potent than guard armies and a handful of modern chapters.

nor were the objects of his conquest that hard. Horus commanded an attack against the largest ork empire recorded in human history. He needed those forces to take on harder targets.

False, the largest Ork empire was lead by the Beast in M.32, it is specifically mentionned that his waagh is larger than the one Horus vanquished.

The Beast was defeated by post heresy Imperium.

The Beast. Cool and simple name!

Ghaz is pulling together the biggest one now though right?

The Beast nearly took over the Imperium, Ghaz struggles to take Armageddeon, make that of what you will.

Horus. Machy lost everything he conquered to rebellion shortly thereafter, and it took a bunch of Space Marine chapters running about to mop up the Macharian Heresy. Horus Meanwhile conquered a greater portion of the Milky Way, wiped out the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands, and after conquering the galaxy, led a rebellion against it rather than have it actively rebel against him. Plus he sacked Terra and nearly decimated it to a point beyond repair until the Emperor dealt out justice via mindbullets.

And lost everything in a rebellion while also being soundly crushed in combat and defeated by an inferior force.

 PhillyT wrote:
And lost everything in a rebellion while also being soundly crushed in combat and defeated by an inferior force.

Which was led by other generals on his level.

No shame in losing to them.

Macharius never lost. If Wyz is using the fact that after Macharius was finished his generals broke out in rebellion as a reason he wasn't as good as Horus, the fact that Horus couldn't defeat an inferior force in a pitched battle and was annihilated in single combat is a perfectly reasonable point to bring up.

The fact that Macharius never lost could just as likely (more likely, I'd even say) have been due to him facing less capable opposition.

The single combat thing is not really relevant. Macharius was a leader, not a beatstick.

The siege of terra was a siege, not a pitched battle. The defender has a fair few advantages with a defensible position like Terra.

 PhillyT wrote:
Macharius never lost. If Wyz is using the fact that after Macharius was finished his generals broke out in rebellion as a reason he wasn't as good as Horus, the fact that Horus couldn't defeat an inferior force in a pitched battle and was annihilated in single combat is a perfectly reasonable point to bring up.

Terra was not an inferior force. Sanguinius and the Emperor were his betters, not to mention at the time the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and Blood Angels were probably much more numerous than the force Horus Had assembled due to the traitor legions purging their loyalists. The only one still at full strength were the Night Lords.