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I have a relatively large Grey Knights force, but am looking to add more long range firepower in the form of an Astra Militarum detachment to gain access to a squad of Leman Russ tanks headed by Tank Commander Pask, and either Wyverns or Manticores. I have 2 questions.

1) What kind of Leman Russ variants should I build? And which should I put Pask?
2) Wyverns or Manticores, or something else?

Thanks!

It all depends what you're running with your Grey Knights.


The go-to for Pask is a Punisher w/ Lascannon and Multimelta Sponsons, and an Executioner w/ Plasma Sponsons as a squadron buddy. This isn't exactly long-ranged but it's a nasty combination.

For troops you'll probably want a naked platoon to bubblewrap the unit in case you play an opponent running lots of pods.

Heavy support, definitely go with a pair of Wyverns.

On Pask punisher, why lascannon + melta instead of heavy bolters?

Zsolt wrote:
On Pask punisher, why lascannon + melta instead of heavy bolters?

BS4 heavy bolters aren't nearly as scary as BS4 Multimeltas and a lascannon.

Pask gives the Punisher Rending and Tank Hunter, meaning that in addition to Preferred Enemy buffing his chances to hit, he's going to reroll failed penetration rolls too. This makes him pretty good at machinegunning even AV14 vehicles off the table by sheer weight of rending shots.


Multimeltas and a lascannon really buff his ability to pull double duty as a tank and infantry killer. 20 shots is usually enough to maul most squads without the sponsons and hull weapon, but it's nice to have those 3 extra low AP high S shots for shooting up MCs and vehicles. Plus the 24" range of the Multimeltas synergizes very well with his Punisher cannon.

Don't take the plasma executioner unless you have a means to give it rerolls. Pask won't give it preferred enemy in an allied detachment

Can't beat a battle tank to be honest.

If it is an allied detachment don't use pask. Pask is only useful if he is your warlord as he grant preferred enemy to his squad. If he isn't your warlord you lose out heavily, especially for the other Russ's in his squad.

I would go with a vanquisher with lascannon hull for cheap or go with PC or MM sponsons. The russ in his squad can also be identical. Or just a battle tank.

 tankboy145 wrote:
If it is an allied detachment don't use pask. Pask is only useful if he is your warlord as he grant preferred enemy to his squad. If he isn't your warlord you lose out heavily, especially for the other Russ's in his squad.

I would go with a vanquisher with lascannon hull for cheap or go with PC or MM sponsons. The russ in his squad can also be identical. Or just a battle tank.

This is true. Only run Pask if you want your primary to be IG.


Regarding which you should take as your primary, the aforementioned Pask unit is over 400 points. 2 Wyverns is another 130 so now you're up to about half of a 1500 pt army including whatever you run as a Troops choice.

Grey Knights are kind of pricey. You might not lose much by taking an IG primary and skimping a tiny bit on the Grey Knights at around 1500. Above that you would want to reevaluate.

Pask is always worth it in the punisher, but if you want long range support that's not the right tank. Standard tank commander is cheaper and keeps the unit your HQ.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
It all depends what you're running with your Grey Knights.


The go-to for Pask is a Punisher w/ Lascannon and Multimelta Sponsons, and an Executioner w/ Plasma Sponsons as a squadron buddy. This isn't exactly long-ranged but it's a nasty combination.

For troops you'll probably want a naked platoon to bubblewrap the unit in case you play an opponent running lots of pods.

Heavy support, definitely go with a pair of Wyverns.

I've got Draigo, Librarians, Paladins, Purifiers, Nemesis Dreadknights, Stormravens... the whole 9-yards. Right now planning on running GK as main force and AM detachment (since I already have a GK force). As such, which would be the best loadout for the 2x Leman Russ... or should I just have a regular command squad and keep the 3x Wyverns to save some points?

As far as AM models go, so far I have 2x Wyverns and 10x Veterans built with 1x Wyvern and 2x Demolisher Leman Russ kits brand new ready to build whichever variant we decide is best.

GKs are very psyker heavy, and very close combat oriented. The units are obviously very elite and very expensive... the cheapest, worst units in the entire codex still come standard with Power Armor, a Storm Bolter, a Force weapon, and Brotherhood of Psykers. GKs, however, lack AP2, long range weaponry, and dice (since the units are so expensive the force is usually quite small).

It seems like Pask in a Punisher with Lascannon and Plasma Cannon upgrades is almost standard (unless he is the Warlord then Pask in an Executioner since able to reroll 1's and possibly hit or at lease mitigate It Gets Hot). Is this accurate? And the other tank an Executioner variant? Remember I'm needing long range, AP2, and dice. The Wyverns should give me dice and an amazing tool vs horde armies... but also need something to take out MC or LR too. Keep in mind GK is a very aggressive CC army that only softens up targets in shooting while it closes in which is why I've decided to ally with AM to best compliment and address GK weaknesses.

What do you suggest?

You can get preferred enemy from Kurov's Aguila right? Maybe 2 plasma executioners with multimeltas or plasma sponsons would work to fill the gaps. You'd need the CCS with the aquila hanging out nearby.

Go for the TC as an ally so you don't waste pts on the PE.

It's hard to go wrong with a pair of Demolishers, especially with ample psychic support to improve the squads with spells like Perfect Timing or Prescience. The TC still keeps his orders though which are all great. 6+D6 inches Flatout? 21" average move before your second shooting phase plus the range of the cannon and starting at the front of your DZ means you can hit something 57" away from your board edge on turn 2. Or shoot and still pop smoke for that clutch cover save. Split fire for mopping up.

Running those Demolisher with triple HF is obviously beneficial vs hordes and anyone camping an objective,plus it protects against Weapon Destroyed results.

Vanquishers aren't bad if you want long-range vehicle killing power (which, it sounds like is part of what you're missing).

tSygna wrote:

As far as AM models go, so far I have 2x Wyverns and 10x Veterans built with 1x Wyvern and 2x Demolisher Leman Russ kits brand new ready to build whichever variant we decide is best.

What do you suggest?

Use magnets and make your hull/sponson weapons and main cannon exchangeable. It's easily done amond LR Demolisher kits, much harder to make cannons compatible with regular LR kit. You can do the same for Wyvern/Hydra from the other kit.

Mavnas wrote:
Vanquishers aren't bad if you want long-range vehicle killing power (which, it sounds like is part of what you're missing).

This was my thinking as well. Could pair it with a cheap battle cannon buddy for split fire.

So looking at the variety of responses... There seems like there really isn't any objective answer that is clearly superior? Is that an accurate assessment? At first heard a lot of Pask in Punisher or Exterminator, but now honestly a bit confused. Will definitely magnetize that's for sure.

OP, if you can swing Prescience or some other source of Preferred Enemy, and long-range AP2 is what you're after, then Plasmacutioners seem to fit the bill.

If you've got a source of Prescience in your GK list, then maybe TC + Buddy Executioners w/ Plasma Cannons, Bolters, or Multimeltas would give you the long range punch you want. If you don't have a source of Prescience, then Demolishers are probably the way to go.

If you're going to run IG allies you're best off running a TC + Friend as your HQ. That way you aren't stuck with a Command Squad and you can still take that cheap Wyvern goodness. Tax would only be a cheap vet squad.




What would you want to run GK-wise? That might help people better understand what to recommend in terms of an allied detachment. 3x DK with Teleporters will synergize differently than a bunch of Terminators or whatever.

See below.

Why not go AM primary, GK allied detachment?

Okay so reworked the list a little more... but still unsure about which Leman Russ variants to use so any help according to this specific list would be awesome.

Well-rounded TAC list, and defense-wise everything is very durable either vehicles or Terminator amor which nullifies high AP low STR weapons except the Veteran squad of AM... this means useless points for the enemy if they've got a bunch of Bolters etc.

GREY KNIGHTS
Librarian ML3 (Divination for Prescience to bless Leman Russ squadron, guaranteed auto-take since it's the Primaris Power for Divination tree)
5x Terminators
2x Nemesis Dreadknights with Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon
5x Purifiers with 2x Incinerator (loaded into Rhino)
1x Rhino
2x Stormravens with Twin-linked Lascannon and Twin-Linked Multi-melta

ASTRA MILITARUM
Tank Commander Pask in Leman Russ Punisher with Multimelta side sponsons
Leman Russ Executioner with Lascannon and Plasmacannon side sponsons
2x Wyverns
10x Veterans

1850 points

STRATEGY
This has all the crazy goodness of both GK and AM... Nemesis Dreadknights, psychic power, Stormravens for anti-armor/anti-air, and close combat and objective holding from GK; Leman Russ' to deal with heavy infantry and light-medium armored vehicles and MC which GK traditionally have difficulty dealing with since lack of AP2 high STR weaponry, plus Wyverns supplying tons of additional dice to deal with light-infantry. Pound from afar first and maybe second turns, then advance when tactically advantageous to take objectives with tanks, NDKs, Termies, and Purifiers in Rhino and 2x Stormraven air support. The best of both worlds. Just considering best combination of Leman Russ variants presently.

Thoughts about the list?

Maxim 45 of Maximally Effective Mercenaries: Boys before Toys!

I appreciate armor as much as the next guy, but isn't this a little thin? 21 infantry and 2 monsterous creatures? And you plan on the librarian (and presumably the terminators) wandering behind Pask blessing him? That's a pretty expensive investment just to get rerolls on someone who's already rerolling 1s... Primaris psykers cost a lot less than 350+ points if it's really that important to you.

Once your rhino gets blown up turn one (which will happen - accept it) you're really lacking in threats. You've basically got the Russ squadren, the storm ravens, the dreadknights and the wyvern fire support. Without deployment mechanisms, your termies and purifiers won't have nearly the impact they could. And since you're not going deepstrike/shunt heavy you don't really want your termies off by themselves.

I'd seriously consider dropping the rhino and sticking the purifiers in a storm raven. I'd also shove either the terminators or the vets in the other one. If you're going to mech up, you may as well go all the way and deny your enemy the ability to use his low str guns. If the vets do hop in the raven, grab them a couple of plasma guns so they can parachute out at some point and bring the pain!

Update: Battle Report vs Sisters of Battle.

Just played this list tonight but modified down to 1500 points, so I basically removed both Stormravens. As noted above played against Sisters of Battle, my first time playing them.

I utterly destroyed my opponent, so completely I almost felt bad.

TURN 1
I was supposed to go first but his Coteaz stole the initiative and took first turn. He wounded both Leman Russ tanks with his STR 8 / AP 1 D6+1 hit missiles (sorry don't know the name of the vehicle) and advanced the rest of his troops forward behind his vehicles. He didn't kill anything though. My turn one I destroyed both of the weird organ missile launching aforementioned Rhino variants with my two Leman Russ tanks blessed with Prescience, and one entire squad of about 15 including Coteaz with my Wyverns dealing 56 wounds. I also destroyed some other Multimelta Rhino variant with my Dreadknights.

TURN 2
His flier came into play (sorry don't know the name either, but it had two Lascannons and a special Heavy 7 STR 6 AP 3 gatling gun) and attempted to kill a Leman Russ but failed to do so, and since I'd knocked out all his other vehicles with high STR weaponry he couldn't take out my tanks, Wyverns, or NDKs. Nothing dies again, my turn again. I destroy his flier with Cleansing Flame from the Purifiers still safe inside my Rhino and we just basically called it a game there.

REGARDING LEMAN RUSS VARIANTS
Tonight I ran Pask in a Punisher with Multimelta side sponsons and an Executioner with a Lascannon and Plasmacannon side sponsons. They both performed well and I'm not sure which performed better. I used them both to target enemy armor which had 13 frontside. Pask's Punisher is 20 shots at BS4, reroll misses (Prescience), then Rending on to wound rolls. It wasn't too effective vs the 13 armor, but still dealt 1 HP damage. The Multimeltas really shined though. As a GK player this was my first time using them. I'm sure Pask in a Punisher would fair even better against MC or medium to light armored vehicles like Rhinos or anything 12 armor down. The Executioner also took out a couple vehicles, but I think it would also shine better against heavy infantry. My opponent tonight didn't have MC or heavy infantry, so these variants weren't at their best but they still performed very well and both made up their points and then some on turn 1. Next time probably need to take something more anti-armor oriented to balance the lineup, but if I take 2x Stormravens that should do nicely only downside is turn 2+. A Demolisher or Vanquisher or regular Battle Tank with Lascannon and Multimelta side sponsons might be a good anti-armor tank to pair with Pask in either the Punisher or the Executioner. Pask in Punisher with Prescience does get a lot of wounds, even possible on armor 14, but dedicated anti-armor to deal with their anti-armor aiming at Pask just seemed like it might be safer and more effective anti-armor, though overall less effective and less flexible. Should probably move Lascannon to Pask's Punisher too from the Executioner. The Wyverns were the all-stars though (I know not Leman Russ) and absolutely ridiculous. I knew they'd be good by looking at their stats but have never used them or seen them in play before and wow.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Maxim 45 of Maximally Effective Mercenaries: Boys before Toys!

I appreciate armor as much as the next guy, but isn't this a little thin? 21 infantry and 2 monsterous creatures? And you plan on the librarian (and presumably the terminators) wandering behind Pask blessing him? That's a pretty expensive investment just to get rerolls on someone who's already rerolling 1s... Primaris psykers cost a lot less than 350+ points if it's really that important to you...

I'd seriously consider dropping the rhino and sticking the purifiers in a storm raven. I'd also shove either the terminators or the vets in the other one. If you're going to mech up, you may as well go all the way and deny your enemy the ability to use his low str guns. If the vets do hop in the raven, grab them a couple of plasma guns so they can parachute out at some point and bring the pain!

Good point about the Librarian... that is in fact what I did tonight, blessing the tanks and keeping them behind for cover. But you're right that is a very expensive Prescience so there may be a more efficient way to accomplish the same goal like Coteaz or something else. Any ideas?

The reason I like putting Purifiers in a Rhino is they can use Cleansing Flame fromt he access points, as well as shoot their Incinerators and the Rhino is a cheap 35 points. I wouldn't be against just loading them into one of the Stormravens either though, but then once they're on the ground they're completely exposed. The Rhino didn't blow up turn 1 tonight because there were much much much more important targets for his anti-armor than a Rhino with 5x Purifiers... also placed it behind cover.

If all you want is LRBTs, consider the Armored Battlegroup list.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If all you want is LRBTs, consider the Armored Battlegroup list.

Wow didn't know this existed... what is it exactly? Do you think it would complement a GK force as an ally better than a standard AM allied detachment?

It permits one to take LRBTs as HQ choices, troops choices, and elites choices.

Effectively, it allows for eight LRBTs in an allied detachment, though I personally would recommend 3 - one command tank, and two troops choices of one tank each.

Make the command tank a Vanquisher with co-axial heavy stubber and beast-hunter shells (and probably artificer hull and hull lascannon as well).

The two troops tanks could be thunderers (cheapo demolishers with no hull weapon and no turret) or standard LRBTs. Eradicators are a possibility if you feel the need to ignore cover. Exterminators are also not terrible, but not great also.

Extra Vanquishers are probably unneeded.

The orders are pretty cool too, as are the warlord traits.

EDIT:
It's found in Forge World's Imperial Armour Vol 1: Second Edition

If I'll have access to 2x Stormravens (or at the very least 1x Stormraven), do you think I should still have a Vanquisher as the HQ choice if I go this route? And how does it compare to Pask... because in a Punisher with Prescience he rerolls any missed shots out of the 20x he fires, renders on 6s, and can also reroll armor penetration. Additionally if I go standard AM, I also unlock the Wyvern branch of the tech tree, which are amazing especially considering they're only 65 points a model and can pack 3x into one Heavy Support slot they're completely under-costed for what they do and a total steal.

IG has alot of cheap Psy, most of them with Divination. 3 Primaris psyker for 50pts, +25 for level 2, Wyrdvane psykers are 60pts lvl1 brotherhood, no upgrade (this may be the worst), Astropath 25Pts Lvl1 upgrade to CCS, butonly with Telepathy (Shroud, Invisibility anyone?).

Also Inuisition has a lot of cheap psy too, mostly in Henchman units, 10 pts Lvl1 psyker with 3 Acolytes costs like 19 or so points. You can take 3 of this unit for each Inquisition detachment. Also HQ inquisitors can be upgraded to have psy for more points though, some special characters have higher levels too (for a lot of points).

Zsolt wrote:
IG has alot of cheap Psy, most of them with Divination. 3 Primaris psyker for 50pts, +25 for level 2, Wyrdvane psykers are 60pts lvl1 brotherhood, no upgrade (this may be the worst), Astropath 25Pts Lvl1 upgrade to CCS, butonly with Telepathy (Shroud, Invisibility anyone?).

Also Inuisition has a lot of cheap psy too, mostly in Henchman units, 10 pts Lvl1 psyker with 3 Acolytes costs like 19 or so points. You can take 3 of this unit for each Inquisition detachment. Also HQ inquisitors can be upgraded to have psy for more points though, some special characters have higher levels too (for a lot of points).

Ok I've been looking through the codex for more utility and more strategic options but it's hard to cut points because I really like everything in the list below pretty much. I'm thinking to reduce the cost of the unit blessing the Leman Russ squadron with Prescience I could attach the Librarian to the Veterans who would double as a little bit of a human shield if need be from drop pods albeit, not much, but this would lower the amount of points wasted in the rear and still keep my Warlord safe for the first couple turns. I could then load the Terminators into one of the Stormravens, load the Purifiers into another allowing me to remove the Rhino, and purchase an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with an Ulumeathi plasma syphon for the 35 points saved. I'd probably disembark the Purifiers while leaving the Inquisitor on the Stormraven to effectively shut down any Plasma-based weapons within 6". Putting the Terminator squad and the Purifier squad both into Stormravens allows for more maneuverability, but much more points go into reserves. The Dreadknights will have to protect the gun line until turn 2. If I could spare the points I'd maybe get an Aegis Defense Line with a Comms Relay to provide defense and more reliability for turn 2 Stormravens, but can't spare another 70 points anywhere.

GREY KNIGHTS
Librarian ML3 (Divination, attached to AM veteran squad in rear to bless Leman Russ squadron)
5x Terminators (loaded into Stormraven B)
2x Nemesis Dreadknights with Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon
5x Purifiers with 2x Incinerator (loaded into Stormraven A with Inquisitor)
Stormraven A with Twin-linked Lascannon and Twin-Linked Multi-melta
Stormraven B with Twin-linked Lascannon and Twin-Linked Multi-melta

ASTRA MILITARUM
Tank Commander Pask in Leman Russ Punisher with Multimelta side sponsons
Leman Russ Executioner with Lascannon and Plasmacannon side sponsons
2x Wyverns
10x Veterans

INQUISITION
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with Ulumeathi Plasma Siphon (loaded into Stormraven A with Purifier squad)

1850 points

tSygna wrote:

Ok I've been looking through the codex for more utility and more strategic options but it's hard to cut points because I really like everything in the list below pretty much.

You can always play bigger games. Just go for 2000 pts

Also remember pask has crack shot, he rerolls his Rolls to pen!!!!