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Since I plan to stick to my DA's for at least another army (only 2 models left for my DW to paint, yay!) I decided to take a look at what Forgeworld has to offer to help the Codex out a bit if I go against stuff like Serpents, Wraithdudes and Necrons.
While I kind of have an idea what models are available at FW, I scratch my head at the power level they are at.
Obviously, a Mortis V Pattern Dreadnought is nothing too scary (which is why I got one).
While Mortis Contemptor Pattern feel a bit icky, I think these are still arguably reasonable against some stronger 'Dexes.
Now I went and saw the Fire Raptor.
Light of the Golden Throne, srsly?
That thing is a gakking monster (and the model is really nice...). I dunno if I can look an opponent straight in the eye and place one on the table without either a) cackling manically if he's TFG or b) blushing in shame if it's a friend of mine that plays CSM.

As far as I know, DA's can take anything SM-ish FW has on offer and have fluff reasons for it to boot, but it is hard to judge what's broken and what not if there's no PDF for it (and shelling out the cash for the IA Books is daunting if you don't play 30k).
So can anyone give me a short rundown on the models with a quick note on the power level in a 40k game?

Fire Raptor is indeed broken... I've faced two in a 1500 point game and it's not pretty :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But to add... if people take FW against you then you take FW back. Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

No need for it at all but they do.

Probably to bolster sales.

I'm just considering using them for my DW Army. We all know it smells like a grox herd in terms of power level... To have a fighting chance against e.g. Wraithknights and the like you need something to pull some weight, but don't want to go overboard with stuff.

 Flippa wrote:
Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

No need for it at all but they do.

Oh yes, All of FW stuff is very broken. For example. Shadow Spectres.

Shadow Spectres vs Warp Spiders.
Both are Jet Pack Infantry.
Both have the same statline.
Warp Spiders can jump through the Warp in the Movement phase, allowing them to move faster across the table.
Warp Spiders have better armour.
Shadow Spectres who move get a 5+ cover save (boosted to 4+ if they also thrust in the assault phase), that cannot be modified.
Shadow Spectres have an increased range on their guns by 6", that is single shot, lower Strength, however, if you get at least two hits you can instead inflict a single hit with a bonus to Strength/AP.
Shadow Spectres have the Fear special rule.
Shadow Spectres cost almost double what Warp Spiders cost.

So yes. Very broken.

Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

No need for it at all but they do.

Yeah, that's a good bit of hyperbole right there. I've found (from playing against it) that a good bit of FW stuff is actually over-costed and under-powered. There are just a few exceptions to this that really stand out. The Fire Raptor IS an example of one of their stronger units though.

OP:
I would say if your group is ok with FW and you're regularly facing a lot of IK or Wraith Knights, then one Fire Raptor to help out your DA probably isn't too bad. Knowing how much help the DA sometimes need I wouldn't mind lining up against you at all if you had a Fire Raptor. Best check with your group though!

 Thairne wrote:


As far as I know, DA's can take anything SM-ish FW has on offer and have fluff reasons for it to boot, but it is hard to judge what's broken and what not if there's no PDF for it (and shelling out the cash for the IA Books is daunting if you don't play 30k).
So can anyone give me a short rundown on the models with a quick note on the power level in a 40k game?

Here's your PDF sir

 Thairne wrote:
Since I plan to stick to my DA's for at least another army (only 2 models left for my DW to paint, yay!) I decided to take a look at what Forgeworld has to offer to help the Codex out a bit if I go against stuff like Serpents, Wraithdudes and Necrons.
While I kind of have an idea what models are available at FW, I scratch my head at the power level they are at.
Obviously, a Mortis V Pattern Dreadnought is nothing too scary (which is why I got one).
While Mortis Contemptor Pattern feel a bit icky, I think these are still arguably reasonable against some stronger 'Dexes.
Now I went and saw the Fire Raptor.
Light of the Golden Throne, srsly?
That thing is a gakking monster (and the model is really nice...). I dunno if I can look an opponent straight in the eye and place one on the table without either a) cackling manically if he's TFG or b) blushing in shame if it's a friend of mine that plays CSM.

CSM's can take Fire Raptors too..

They're not that bad. They kill infantry in the open very well, and have a limited supply of S8 one-shot missiles to deal with tanks. Aside from that, they're nearly Land Raider priced flyers with no transport capacity and if the infantry they're firing at are getting cover they're a lot less effective. They're good, but if you're able to deal with something like Necron Flyer spam, you can deal with a couple of these things (you're probably never going to see 3 of them) no problem.

As far as I know, DA's can take anything SM-ish FW has on offer and have fluff reasons for it to boot, but it is hard to judge what's broken and what not if there's no PDF for it (and shelling out the cash for the IA Books is daunting if you don't play 30k).
So can anyone give me a short rundown on the models with a quick note on the power level in a 40k game?

You're going to be getting a million different answers. BTW the book you probably want is Imperial Armour Volume II

The only FW SM unit with a legitimate balance issue currently I think is the Relic Whirlwind Scorpius. Most of the dreadnought units are pretty mediocre, and the rest of the tanks are all pretty ok.

 Flippa wrote:



But to add... if people take FW against you then you take FW back. Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

If you've actually read through an Imperial Armour book...you'd probably realize this simply is not true...

 Flippa wrote:
But to add... if people take FW against you then you take FW back. Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

No need for it at all but they do.

A few FW units are pretty powerful, but by no means the majority. Just like in the regular Codexes.

I've just been looking at SM anti-air options, particularly the Whirlwind Hyperios / Stalker comparison. Stalker is 12/12/10 S7AP2, Armourbane, Skyfire, with the Savant Lock so flyers might still get hit the following turn. 75 points. Whirlwind Hyperios is 11/11/10 S8AP3, Interceptor, Skyfire, re-roll hits against Flyers. So, you get a re-roll to hit and Interceptor, but lose Armourbane. Cost? ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN POINTS. Yeah, very OP.

The Fire Raptor is pretty powerful. Do we think it's more powerful for it's points than an Imperial Knight? Wave Serpents? Wyverns?

Happyjew wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

No need for it at all but they do.

Oh yes, All of FW stuff is very broken. For example. Shadow Spectres.

Shadow Spectres vs Warp Spiders.
Both are Jet Pack Infantry.
Both have the same statline.
Warp Spiders can jump through the Warp in the Movement phase, allowing them to move faster across the table.
Warp Spiders have better armour.
Shadow Spectres who move get a 5+ cover save (boosted to 4+ if they also thrust in the assault phase), that cannot be modified.
Shadow Spectres have an increased range on their guns by 6", that is single shot, lower Strength, however, if you get at least two hits you can instead inflict a single hit with a bonus to Strength/AP.
Shadow Spectres have the Fear special rule.
Shadow Spectres cost almost double what Warp Spiders cost.

So yes. Very broken.

Have Eldar had a second edition or an up to date list yet like marines?? I've not seen it? And it's not like Eldar need any help anyway.

Tycho wrote:

Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

No need for it at all but they do.

Yeah, that's a good bit of hyperbole right there. I've found (from playing against it) that a good bit of FW stuff is actually over-costed and under-powered. There are just a few exceptions to this that really stand out. The Fire Raptor IS an example of one of their stronger units though.

OP:
I would say if your group is ok with FW and you're regularly facing a lot of IK or Wraith Knights, then one Fire Raptor to help out your DA probably isn't too bad. Knowing how much help the DA sometimes need I wouldn't mind lining up against you at all if you had a Fire Raptor. Best check with your group though!

Hyperbole? Have a read through Imperial Armour War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes, there''s all sorts of lovely broken stuff in there! Case in point the lovely land raider variants... Assault Cannons that are 5 points cheaper than standard codex including the kheres which not only is 5points cheaper but also has another 2 shots?? Damocles Rhinos? The list goes on.

Oh and I would much rather have the forgeworld stompa than the codex stompa, cheaper and able to dish out much much more damage.

Vaktathi wrote:

 Flippa wrote:



But to add... if people take FW against you then you take FW back. Otherwise I steer clear as all their models go up to 11.

If you've actually read through an Imperial Armour book...you'd probably realize this simply is not true...

Ok so maybe I was generalising a little. But in the case of Marines and War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes I hit the nail right on the head. There is simply nothing in that book that is under-costed or underpowered.

As I said if people use FW units against you then use them back. The new beauty of 40k is you get to agree with your opponent before the game starts what type of game you want. Personally I steer clear of beardy lists because I don't want to be known as TFG even if it's to the detriment of my army. That being said my gaming group is a beer and pretzels kind of group. Not the win at all costs FW Power Gamers which I have faced at TTN and local gaming clubs on several occasions.

Hyperbole? Have a read through Imperial Armour War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes, there''s all sorts of lovely broken stuff in there! Case in point the lovely land raider variants... Assault Cannons that are 5 points cheaper than standard codex including the kheres which not only is 5points cheaper but also has another 2 shots?? Damocles Rhinos? The list goes on.

That's a few things. A few things (a few things from only one faction mind you) is VERY different from "EVERY MODEL THEY MAKE". lol Plus, the 5pts. cheaper assault cannons? They've not been so terrible to face in my meta. Far from broken. I could easily make the same claim about multiple of the actual codexes put out by GW. 2++ re-rollable? Serpent spam? Hey there IK CAD attached to GK in SW drop pods ...

Yeah, *some* of the FW units are just insane, but really, it's not so different from the current GW books in terms of balance.

Oh and I would much rather have the forgeworld stompa than the codex stompa, cheaper and able to dish out much much more damage.

They BOTH still suck imo.

The new beauty of 40k is you get to agree with your opponent before the game starts what type of game you want. Personally I steer clear of beardy lists because I don't want to be known as TFG even if it's to the detriment of my army. That being said my gaming group is a beer and pretzels kind of group. Not the win at all costs FW Power Gamers which I have faced at TTN and local gaming clubs on several occasions.

40k has ALWAYS been this way, and it's not like the OP was talking about squeezing a Warhound into his 1500pt army either. The fact that you would possibly consider labeling a DA player (DA being one of the weaker books atm) who just wants to add one Fire Raptor to his list "beardy" or "TFG" says more about you than it does about anything FW related ...

Looks like mentioning FW still leads to debates

I'm still considering that Raptor vs more highly powered lists. I wouldn't field it against a CSM Army, but against Eldar? No qualms. Especially since that Eldar player, in one of my very first games (2vs1, 2k) my opponent did field a Wraithknight and several Serpents vs. my contribution of... 2 tactical squads with Plasma and another DA player. If I remember right he tabled us both in turn 3.
The reason I asked for a rough power guideline to go for is so I could more easily finetune the power of my list to the power my opponent would bring. You shove a Wraithknight down my throat? Well, look at this pretty *insert forgeworld model here* that is capable of giving you a run for your money.
Your list is fluffy? Not gonna see the Raptor even on the horizon.
DA's aren't anywhere near the top and I hate allying in stuff (might just aswell play another army then), so FW is the thing to go. But as I mentioned, im worried about bringing broken units that give me too MUCH oomph.
Without the rules on hand though, hard to judge.

Also, without trying them in the local meta it's hard to judge. The Fire Raptor is awesome, but against an army tooled up for anti-flyer, it'll go down like anything else.

Please don't make assumptions about me, I have been a Dark Angel player since the late 80's. I can field the entire Deathwing, Ravenwing and 3rd and 6th Companies at once should I ever get a chance to play that size game. Fire Raptor's are indeed beardy and goes against everything I believe in whilst gaming. Even though Dark Angels have access to relics of the past and would I assume have things like that at their disposal, I still consider it unfluffy.

And you berate me about someone wanting to add a Fire Raptor to his list... A Fire Raptor the OP stated as....

Now I went and saw the Fire Raptor.
Light of the Golden Throne, srsly?
That thing is a gakking monster (and the model is really nice...). I dunno if I can look an opponent straight in the eye and place one on the table without either a) cackling manically if he's TFG or b) blushing in shame if it's a friend of mine that plays CSM.


Gives you an impression of what he and other people may think of it.

So MY POINT stands if someone takes FW against you then by all means reciprocate otherwise stay the hell away. Oh and just because your opinion that the Stompa's suck (which you're entitled to) doesn't detract from the FACT that the FW Stompa goes up to 11 and the codex Stompa pales in comparison

 Flippa wrote:
So MY POINT stands if someone takes FW against you then by all means reciprocate otherwise stay the hell away. Oh and just because your opinion that the Stompa's suck (which you're entitled to) doesn't detract from the FACT that the FW Stompa goes up to 11 and the codex Stompa pales in comparison

Nobody is saying that FW doesn't include SOME units that 'go up to 11'. We're disagreeing with you when you claim that everything (or everything in the IA:2 book) goes that far. We've all given you examples of units that this doesn't apply to. The majority of units are fine - either well-balanced or undercoated. We can keep going with this if you like - Storm Eagles OP? Pretty accurately costed compared to a Stormraven.

YOU keep replying with exactly the same thing. You're not engaging in a conversation. We understand your point - we disagree and are supplying examples.

I agree that the Fire Raptor is one of the more powerful ones. Bordering on OP. Just like Imperial Knights. Or Riptides. Or Wraithknights. I'd like to think that you also wouldn't take any of those unless your opponent does the same. It's a great idea that you shouldn't bring massively OP models unless your opponent is ok with that or also does it. But that argument has nothing to do with FW, because not all FW units are at power level 11.

By your rules, if I have the temerity to include a Hell Blade, then you should take a Fire Raptor, and this would be balanced/fair, because they're both OP FW models. But Hell Blades are rubbish.

Everything ArbitorIan just said

Exalted, QFT

Also, Flippa, nobody is making assumptions about you. Everyone is simply reacting/going off what you've said. I mean if your standpoint is simply "I don't like and don't wish to play against FW" well I don't think too many people would have an issue with that. Game how you like. You're statement though was that EVERYTHING, literally EVERYTHING that FW puts out is ZOMG OP, and that anyone wanting to use anything from FW is basically a beardy TFG. THAT is what people take issue with.

And you berate me about someone wanting to add a Fire Raptor to his list... A Fire Raptor the OP stated as....

Not berating you about a Fire Raptor exactly. Not really even berating you. Just pointing out your comments are a bit on the extreme side. And yes, the OP is excited about the Fire Raptor. As a DA player myself, I was also pretty excited when I discovered it. Our fliers are terribad and we have precious little in the way of anti-air. So while the the FR IS one of the better FW units (no one has disputed that it's good, but I don't think everyone feels that *one* in a 1500+ size game is really OP), it can still be shot down just like any other flier.

Plus, the OP has already even mentioned that he would not take it against weaker armies/opponents. I think it's a pretty reasonable stance and hardly comes across as beardy or a TFG move.

The OP was asking about Space Marine FW equipment, not allies, which means WM of the Adeptus Astartes. As for the original point about some things being worse, yes I concede that point but then again who takes units to the detriment of their army? As said before I'm quite lucky that in the gaming group I play in we're all fluffy players that being said I have been on the receiving end of FW units and it wasn't pretty.

Going back to your point about SR's and SE's...

Yes the SR is 25 points cheaper, which could be explained by the lack of Deep Strike, however the SE has unlimited shots on its missile launcher as opposed to 4 (albeit anti personnel rather than anti armour) it also has the capacity to transport 20 models instead of 12+Dread, it has 1 additional HP and also has more upgrade options and counts as BS5 with strafing run. However I don't know why it's extra armour is 3x the cost of the SR?? I would say the SE is better value than the SR, there is simply no reason other than these go to 11 for them to have +1 HP +1BS unlimited shots, more upgrades etc...

But for an extra 70 points you could have the ROC pattern and that's a whole different ball game.

They are purely there to sell models (both of which are stunning) and making them desirable in game, with rules, that people will buy them especially at near 2x the cost.

We're all going to have disagreements on stuff, it's what makes us human and better for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I should have said in my OP that in my experience every single thing I have come up against made by FW has been overpowered/underpointed for what it does. Every single time of playing against them I have had pretty much nothing to counter them.


I agree with you on DA flyers are rubbish, I still have them though.

Ok I should have said in my OP that in my experience every single thing I have come up against made by FW has been overpowered/underpointed for what it does. Every single time of playing against them I have had pretty much nothing to counter them.

That is a fairly reasonable statement.
If you've only ever run up against some of the FW units that actually are op, or if you've just had some bad match-ups, I can see getting a skewed impression. Really though, with the way the game is going, most (certainly not all, but most) FW units are really no different than regular codex units. I mean you should have seen the first time I took my Green tide foot-sloggers up against an Eldar player with Serpent Spam. Complete tabling and not a FW unit in sight. Sometimes there are just bad match-ups.

I agree with you on DA flyers are rubbish, I still have them though.

They look so cool (imo), that it's tough to resist getting one despite the rules. It's been on my list for a while.

 Flippa wrote:

Ok I should have said in my OP that in my experience every single thing I have come up against made by FW has been overpowered/underpointed for what it does. Every single time of playing against them I have had pretty much nothing to counter them.

Yup, much more reasonable to say that everything you've run up against has been OP. I too have a pretty fluffy group of players, which means we use a lot of FW units that are fun, rather than just the OP ones. The same applies to regular 40k - none of us have Riptide Spam, or Knight Spam, or Skyblight, etc etc.

Regarding SR and SE, here's what you get for your extra 25 points.

- AN EXTRA HULL POINT
- Increased Transport Capacity at the cost of losing the Dreadnought Transport option and losing Grav Chute Insertion.
- S5 Vengeance Launcher at the cost of losing your Assault Cannon and losing your four S8AP2 missiles.

I think that's pretty fair. For another 70 points on top of that, you can have the Roc with a S8 Vengeance Launcher, Lascannons and Strafing Run, but you're back down to SR transport capacity (minus the dread). By this point you're paying 295pts. Again, I don't think that's OP.

If you want a good example of bad units in FW look at the Goaded Gnarloc.
Majority T3 MC with 6+ armor
that deals wounds to it's own unit as well
only upgrade is to replace a regular kroot with a shaper.

Heavy gun drones have the firepower of 2 gun drones, at 2 times the cost, and with a single wound, same stat line, and take up a heavy slot instead.

FW is a crap shoot with units. I honestly believe that there is a rift in space time at their writing area and they get rules for units from other dimensions.