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So I'm playing in a small Escalation league right now and the person running the league put a hard rule in the beginning that you could pick 1 allied faction to use for the entire league.

Now, the over and under on this thing is we're doing the Forces of Order (Imperium) vs. Forces of Disorder(everything else). Order has basically been cleaning Disorders clocks since round 1 because 2 of their players have fielded Knight Titans in every game (including 750 points). Now, while it's annoying for those on the Disorder size, we've taken our licks. Here's the thing though, I was reading the Knight Titan codex in preparation for my game against one of these guys next week and it keeps saying Knight are an Allied Detachment.

For the two players using Knight Titans they picked Space Marines: Imperial Fists and Blood Angels for their individual allied factions.

Given that rule, can they really be using Knight Titans if they didn't select them as their allied faction?

There not Knight Titans. Their Imperial Knights they have there own codex and piont values. They are avalible to every imperium of man codex as allies. If you want to be a pain about it ask to see there codex for there knight. If they do not have one then they simply cannot use it. Because how can you be sure everything they say it can do is correct with out it. Jua t bwcause they use army builder for there list does not make it accurate. All types of items it says see codex for rules they have to be able to show what the rules are for the item.

You can now take them as there own detachment and can ally with any imperial codex. However if you are taking them as your primary you must take 3 this is all stated In the FAQ http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Imperial_Knights_v1.0_May14.pdf

Yes Imperial Knights are a faction in their own right. I think that is what you're asking.

Imperial Knights have their own codex and are an Imperial faction.

So by your league's rules it was perfectly legal to have Knights as their primary faction.

An Imperial Knight detachment is between 1 and 3 Knights and can be your primary detachment(this is effectively the Knight's own unique FoC)

Fireraven wrote:
There not Knight Titans. Their Imperial Knights they have there own codex and piont values. They are avalible to every imperium of man codex as allies. If you want to be a pain about it ask to see there codex for there knight. If they do not have one then they simply cannot use it. Because how can you be sure everything they say it can do is correct with out it. Jua t bwcause they use army builder for there list does not make it accurate. All types of items it says see codex for rules they have to be able to show what the rules are for the item.

Imperial Knights are Knight-class Titans, the smallest of the Titan classes. They are grouped with Warhounds as Scout Titans, and are used for screens, flankers, and recon, just like Warhounds. What sets Knights apart from other Titan classes is that their small size allows for a single pilot crew, an ion shield rather than full void shields, the mounting of sub-Titan class main weapons (battle cannons vs turbo lasers, although historically some patterns of Knights did mount single barrel turbo lasers or earth shaker cannons), and the culture of Knight Households rather than Titan Colleges. The pilot to machine interface is the same, the machine spirits are the small, and the battlefield roles are the same. Knight Titans have always been Titans, GW even labeled them as such on their boxes.

As to the Imperial Knight Codex, codexes are written from the point of view of an in-universe reader, rather than game book for players; they read more like a Jane's Guild to 40k warfare, which can be credited to Forgeworld's series of Imperial Armour books. As such, Imperial Knights are their own Imperial faction, and fill an odd spot of being neither Imperial nor AdMech, but a third Human empire allied with the main two Human empires of the Imperium of Man and the Adeptus Mechanicus. This has lead to Imperials Knights being Battle Brothers with all Imperial factions, and to Knights having their own style of Detachment consisting of 1-3 Knights of any type. If you have 3 or more Knights in your army, one can be made Warlord and will receive an automatic upgrade to Seneschal (becomes a character with improved stats are no additional cost). Some Knights many be taken as Lords of War if taken on their own, such as the Forgeworld Knight Lancer and Knight Castigator (PDFs are free to download at Forgeworld.com).

From the OPs description of how their latter league is set up, Imperial Knight would be a legal Primary and Allied faction to the side of "Order".

SJ

allied knight detachement: 1-3 knights
Primary knight detachement: 3-6 knights

Solution to the problem: take as much flyers as possible that can hurt a knight.

DaPino wrote:
allied knight detachement: 1-3 knights
Primary knight detachement: 3-6 knights

Solution to the problem: take as much flyers as possible that can hurt a knight.

FAQ removed the Primary/Allied Detachment rules. Knight detachments are now 1-3, now restriction on how many detachments you can take. In addition, if you take at least 3, one can be your Warlord regardless of Primary detachment, and if your army includes no characters yet at least one Knight, the Knight automatically becomes the Warlord.

SJ

Hey guys, I'd like to ask something. Can I have one of the FW Knights in an IK detach all by itself or am I forced to have at least one of the GW ones?

I ask because of this:

Using the Cerastus Knight-Castigator in your army in games of Warhammer 40,000
Codex: Imperial Knights: Cerastus Knight-Castigators may be chosen as part of a Codex: Imperial Knights army as you would other types of Knight. However, owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium, you may not have more Cerastus Knight-Castigators in your army than you have Knights of
other kinds.

Would that mean that I cannot have an IK detach made only by a Castigator?

Correct. You cannot have an Imperial Knight Detachment composed of one Castigator. You need at least one other Knight to fulfill the Castigator's requirement.

From you post, i assumed as much:

Other Armies of the Imperium Factions: A Cerastus Knight-Castigator may be taken as a Lords of War choice for any faction that is a part of the Armies of the Imperium (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

So yes, you can have one all by itself, but it would have to take your LoW slot.

Yeah, pretty much any Knight can be a LoW choice for any Imperium of Man army.

You could take your Primary Detachment as Space Marines with an HQ, two Troops and an Imperial Knight in your Combined Arms Detachment. You could then take whatever one allied faction you want.

However, owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium, you may not have more Cerastus Knight-Acherons in your army than you have Knights of other kinds.

I can see a huge flaw in these rules though:

You could field 2 Knight-Acherons and 2 Knight-Castigators and still abide by the rules, even though you have 4 "owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium" Units...
(Works 1 for 1, etc too)

 BlackTalos wrote:

However, owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium, you may not have more Cerastus Knight-Acherons in your army than you have Knights of other kinds.

I can see a huge flaw in these rules though:

You could field 2 Knight-Acherons and 2 Knight-Castigators and still abide by the rules, even though you have 4 "owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium" Units...
(Works 1 for 1, etc too)

indeed. But I wanted to grab just one castigator... don't have points for 2 knights!

Which you can, as it can be a Lord of War for a Combined arms, or any other detachment with a LOW slot.

As Nos says, it is the same point cost, same rules, same thing if you are playing any of the Armies of the Imperium (unless you must absolutely have that Baneblade...)

As LoW it's ok. What I want to do is to use the IK Detachment (so no need to grab HQ and troops of any other Imperial army). This is doable with Errant and Paladin - but how about the FW ones?

Who are you using it with is probably the best question at this point?

I can see this issue if you wanted to play Chaos Marines with IK Detachment of a Knight-Castigator.

And i'd say the easy answer to that is: They never really meant for the knights to "easily" be part of Xenos forces =P

Wanted to try with Tau. Send it in front, absorbing melee stuff while I kill the rest at distance - I'm not that fan of FW-spam; I rather use more fun stuff.

Basically the only way to take the FW knights by themselves is as a LoW for a non-Knight Imperial detachment.

So for tournaments like the LVO would a knight detachment be considered an allied detachment or a codex specific detachment? If it's allied I can still take an assassin but if it's codex specific i can't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Basically the only way to take the FW knights by themselves is as a LoW for a non-Knight Imperial detachment.

Oh well, thanks. Gotta bring one with some cheap-o stuff from... DA, maybe? Dude in bike with PFG giving it 4++ all sides

 Dramagod2 wrote:
So for tournaments like the LVO would a knight detachment be considered an allied detachment or a codex specific detachment? If it's allied I can still take an assassin but if it's codex specific i can't.

Knight detachments are not Allied Detachments, they are a special type of detachment with its own specific FoC, not unlike a CAD or a NSF. If a tournament limits you to no more than two codexes, and you take Paladins and/or Errants, you have chosen one of your two codexes. However, the four FW Knights can be taken as LoW in any non-Knight Imperial army.

SJ

Basically you could take

Non-Knight Imperial codex with a FW Knight as LoW: And an allied Imperial Knight detachment with 1-3 Knights. Of which one would have to be either an Errant or Paladin. the other two could be any two of the FW Knights as long as you didn't take the same knight twice.

So you could at most have 2 of the same type of Knight. One in the LoW slot, the other being one of the 3 Knights you took as an ally.

1 LoW Castigator. And then an allied Paladin, Castigator, and Lancer.

If you take a Knight detachment, the FW Knight is no longer a LoW, it joins the Knight detachment or forms a new Knight detachment.

SJ

I'm pretty sure you could include an fw knigjt as a low in your car and then still take a knight detachment. That would let you take 4 knights without them being your primary

If you take 3 or more Knights, one of the Knights can be your Warlord, per the IK FAQ.

SJ

 Vector Strike wrote:

Using the Cerastus Knight-Castigator in your army in games of Warhammer 40,000
Codex: Imperial Knights: Cerastus Knight-Castigators may be chosen as part of a Codex: Imperial Knights army as you would other types of Knight. However, owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium, you may not have more Cerastus Knight-Castigators in your army than you have Knights of other kinds.

Don't forget the emphasis above.

You could, as i posted before, take 1 Paladin as LoW, then a Knight detachment with 3 Knights: 1 Lancer, 1 Castigator, and 1 Acheron. For a total of 4 knights, 3 "rare" ones, but a fully legal "Army" =P

Yep, got that part. To need only 1 cerastus knight, must take it as a LoW in an Imperium CAD. :/

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Using the Cerastus Knight-Castigator in your army in games of Warhammer 40,000
Codex: Imperial Knights: Cerastus Knight-Castigators may be chosen as part of a Codex: Imperial Knights army as you would other types of Knight. However, owing to their rarity in the 41st Millennium, you may not have more Cerastus Knight-Castigators in your army than you have Knights of other kinds.

Don't forget the emphasis above.

You could, as i posted before, take 1 Paladin as LoW, then a Knight detachment with 3 Knights: 1 Lancer, 1 Castigator, and 1 Acheron. For a total of 4 knights, 3 "rare" ones, but a fully legal "Army" =P

Unless you are talking about 30k, Paladins are not LoW.

SJ