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Title says it all. I know that template weapons can't specifically target an invisible unit but are these units immune to a template attack if the template happens fall on them as well?

For example, Unit A and Unit B are next to each other. Unit A is visible and Unit B is invisible. I target Unit A with a template that also covers Unit B. Can Unit B be hit as well?

Or conversely, does attacking Unit A violate the no template rule for invisible units, if the invisible unit is also under the template?

If I can attack Unit A with a template and that template can also affect Unit B, invisibility could be circumvented under certain conditions.

If I cannot attack Unit A with a template because it covers Unit B, I can see invisible units acting as a kind of protection for template vulnerable units huddled around them.

Thoughts?

I would think so, since they're not the original unit being targeted

Same as a blast targeting a unit and scattering over an invisible unit.

Wrenthe has it "wright".

Note that you DO have to maximize the number of models you can hit in the non invisible target unit, so position yourself to maximize hits on the invisible unit while still hitting your "target" at 8.4" away. This is also a good way to hit infantry while targeting a tank for your T1 podding ironclad to charge in T2.

Anyone who complains about you following the rules while they use inviisibility, the Purple Sun of 40k, can snuff ork spores.

Isn't there something unusual about the Invisibility wording?
I can't remember and I don't have the book at the moment so someone remind me what the Rule actually states....

Never-mind:
Found the Rule elsewhere and it is dependent on being 'targeted,' so anything which bypasses targeting bypasses this Rule as well.

If you aren't targeting the invisible unit with your attack, provided you are following the rules for shooting it's legal.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Note that you DO have to maximize the number of models you can hit in the non invisible target unit...

Incorrect. As long as you hit at least one model from the "intended target" unit, you can overlap as much of the invisible unit as you want.

See what you make us do, GW? Shooting one squad so we can attempt to wound another. We are tripping over the inadequacies of your rules.

 Farseer Pef wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Note that you DO have to maximize the number of models you can hit in the non invisible target unit...

Incorrect. As long as you hit at least one model from the "intended target" unit, you can overlap as much of the invisible unit as you want.

See what you make us do, GW? Shooting one squad so we can attempt to wound another. We are tripping over the inadequacies of your rules.

Wrong. You must cover as many models as possible, or as much of the vehicle as possible

The real trick is to use the rest of the models in the unit to block off the legal placements of the template so you can nail more of the invisible unit, because you're also restricted from templating your own models.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
...so position yourself to maximize hits on the invisible unit while still hitting your "target" at 8.4" away. This is also a good way to hit infantry while targeting a tank for your T1 podding ironclad to charge in T2.

I read this to mean that you're firing the template through a unit at a target that is out of range of the template (since the template is ~8") If that's the case, then you can't do that as at the start of the Shooting Phase section of the rule book, it points out that weapons that are out of range auto-miss and cannon shoot (page 30 of the dead tree version of the rule book)

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
...so position yourself to maximize hits on the invisible unit while still hitting your "target" at 8.4" away. This is also a good way to hit infantry while targeting a tank for your T1 podding ironclad to charge in T2.

I read this to mean that you're firing the template through a unit at a target that is out of range of the template (since the template is ~8") If that's the case, then you can't do that as at the start of the Shooting Phase section of the rule book, it points out that weapons that are out of range auto-miss and cannon shoot (page 30 of the dead tree version of the rule book)

No, that's not what he's referring to.

Templates cannot hit your own guys, even guys in the same squad as the one firing. So, if you were very close to the initial squad, you could position your guys so that you only have one viable way to fire the template whilst hitting the initial squad and not hitting your guys.

Basically using that to get maximum hits on the invisible squad, because the rule to not hit your guys super-cedes maximizing hits on the initial target squad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Farseer Pef wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Note that you DO have to maximize the number of models you can hit in the non invisible target unit...

Incorrect. As long as you hit at least one model from the "intended target" unit, you can overlap as much of the invisible unit as you want.

See what you make us do, GW? Shooting one squad so we can attempt to wound another. We are tripping over the inadequacies of your rules.

Wrong. You must cover as many models as possible, or as much of the vehicle as possible

Got a quote and page number of that? I just want to check what the rules actually say.

Page 173, first non italicised para, second sentence. Fourth for vehicles.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Page 173, first non italicised para, second sentence. Fourth for vehicles.

Nope I don't see it. What's the heading of the page or section (my pc doesn't do ebook numbers well).
All Ican see for vehciles and templates is this:

Template Weapons
If a vehicle, or its base, is even partially under a template, it is hit on the Armour Value
facing the firer.

Nothing bout hitting as much of it as possible.

Edit: Ok got it, was way up on page 300 for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So there is no way to tag a vehicle with a flamer and hit a squad next to it then is there?

I've used this tactic with soul grinders and torrent flamers a lot. Guess thats out the window now.

If the whole template must be trying to cover as much of the hull as possible, secondary targets must be hugging the tank to get hit.

This applies to invis units too. They can be hit and damaged by flamers as collateral, but I doubt you would hit more than 1 guy, unless the target you aimed at is a single non vehicle model.

Blast weapons can scatter and hurt invis guys as normal.

Just takes careful setup. For example, if the unit is between you and the vehicle, if other members of the squad get in the way, etc.

Templates really should be able to shoot at invisible units without penalty. If they can be shot at at all, then they mustn't be entirely invisible (or rather, they are detectable by the firer in some fashion, just much more difficult to hit). It's kind of funny that the best weapon to use in that situation would be a flamer or blast weapon, but this is not allowed because that's just how the rules work. They should at least get d3 automatic hits or something.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Templates really should be able to shoot at invisible units without penalty. If they can be shot at at all, then they mustn't be entirely invisible (or rather, they are detectable by the firer in some fashion, just much more difficult to hit). It's kind of funny that the best weapon to use in that situation would be a flamer or blast weapon, but this is not allowed because that's just how the rules work. They should at least get d3 automatic hits or something.

Stop trying to bring in real world logic into 40k

I'm just imagining a Tactical Squad spraying bolter fire after noticing a shimmer in the air, their enhanced senses alerting them to the presence of invisible foes. The Sergeant shouts to bring the flamer upon them and ignite them with the Emperor's fury, but the flamer-bearer clutches his weapon to his chest and replies "I just can't do it!".

Yeah I have no idea why they didn't make invisibility cause WS/BS1 instead of Snap Shots...

WS1/BS1 would have made too much sense and not been broken enough to benefit someone's deathstar.

To recap: Place your flamer model 8.4" fromt he visible target so you can just touch that with the tip and then you can have the rest on the template sprayed on the invisible unit. You DO have to maximize the coverage on the targetted unit/'s models but if the tip is all that can reach, the rest is free for you to target as your movement allows.

For added fun, I think flamers angled high could hit flyers too, they just can't target them ("all models under the template") so you need to maximize primary target coverage while doing so, btu I haven't tried it or checked for RAW loopholes on that.

And give a cover save vs the rest of your shooting..... good choice to get around not aiming at an invisible unit. You would be better off simply firing at the unit.

Just poked around with some models, to hit a FMC in between you want to be just clipping the base so your not trying to get the template over the FMC (at it won't reach another unit in most instances, if you just have to leap the tail then maybe), my Flyrants are the first models which are on the ground which makes it harder.

Flyers though, while it would be better to apply the same, Hard to hit rule for them is different and stipulates they can't be hit with templates/blasts (in addition to targetted snap shots).