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so I've been wondering if I should take either vanguard vets or assault marines in a ravenguard list.

I normally run assaults in friendly games what with being able to get a first turn assault with dawn of war and ravenguard tactics.

However I haven't had any competitive games with my ravenguard yet and I was wondering which ones people would run and in what configuration?

Nothing about the raven guard chapter tactics or Dawn of War deployment lets you assault on the first turn

yeah, scout moves then normal moves first turn plus rerollable assault means a possible 36 inch move

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
yeah, scout moves then normal moves first turn plus rerollable assault means a possible 36 inch move

You can't charge if you use Scout

when was that a thing? no one has had a problem with it at my lgs

You haven't been able to charge after using Scout for several editions now.

The Scout rule is very clear about not charging on the first turn if you use the scout move.

all well, still would you use vets or assault marines? and in what configuration

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
yeah, scout moves then normal moves first turn plus rerollable assault means a possible 36 inch move

I assume you're talking about assault marines with jump packs?

Bad news, they don't get scout. Ravenguard tactix specifically states that bulky models don't get scout. And jumppack marines are bulky. You should read your codex a bit more attentively.

Since Neither gets a first turn assault, the question comes down to how fancy you want to get them. If you want extra wounds for a beatstick HQ like a chaplin then ASM, if you need to bring pain or special toys to the party it is Vanguard. Shrike would really need Vanguard for best effect.

ASM I would go Jmp with one or 2 flamers, running minimal squads for make flame.

VV I like with 2 SS, Sword, Axe, Mace. This makes them threat on everyone and you got 2 guys to soak wounds while you charge in.

Both are good for a turn 2 assault.

Also not sure were you were getting the 36" move from. 6" scout redeploy (infantry), 12" move, 12" charge for a max of 30.

Where are you getting this scout move for jump infantry?

Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have
the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn,
models in this detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note
that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky
special rules do not benefit from either rule.

Okay, okay jump marines don't get scout. Now, onto the OP's question: how best to field them?

I like vanguard vets more because normal ASM have chainswords and bolt pistols. Bolt pistols don't really do much, though, and the flamer is more expensive for ASM. Vanguard Vets get *Really* expensive, though. My brother runs shrike with 5 of them. 2 guys have dual LC and the other two have a power fist/ thunder hammer +SS combo, and its not really fun. 4++ doesn't last as long as it look son paper. I've floated around the idea of ten vanguard vets with power weapons/ LC and a couple storm shields, but at that point, you're looking at 400+ points invested into one unit.

The other problem is that in order to have that many points to fit something like that into a normal sized list, you're putting yourself into a deathstar mindset, without getting the firepower of a really expensive deathstar out of it. The key with Vanguard vets is moderation; power weapons, maybe a couple SS, or LC if you're feeling fluffy. They will get expensive fast otherwise.

The alternative is non-veteran ASM with no upgrades at all, taken in tens, combat squaded, which you can zip around anywhere you want, and tarpit anything with.

adding the idea of gun slinging vets. 10 with guns akimbo, one plasma/grav and one bolt. that way you get a lot of shooting and get to assault!

 CrownAxe wrote:
Nothing about the raven guard chapter tactics or Dawn of War deployment lets you assault on the first turn

You can always assault on 1st turn if you go 2nd


Vanguard Vets are AWESOME. They are fast and mobile units that make for a decent close combat unit (not too powerful like Honor Guard or too lame like regular assault marines) equipped with frags so they can charge into cover without second thought.

The best thing about them though is the ability to take hidden power AXES. Yes, axes - fists are too costly and on top of all that do not give +1 attack in combination with the bolt pistol. Axes may have a tougher time wounding, but their AP2 and hidden-ness means with a large Vanguard squad you can slice through pretty much anything.

The trouble is not getting shot to bits before reaching your target.

Here's where a jump pack Chapter Master with Artificer armor and Shield Eternal comes into play - place your Vanguard squad in an inverted V formation with the CM at the front and then you can soak all those wounds the enemy shoots into your squad until the CM only has 1 wound left, at which point you can start using Lookout Sir and pass those on a 2+.

In any case, you will get in to cc by the end of turn 2 usually.

I usually take 7 guys

 Sir Arun wrote:

You can always assault on 1st turn if you go 2nd

No they removed that in 7ed. it now says you can't assault on your first turn.

sorry about misreading the tactics, in the quick reference area it only specifies the stealth rule as non-beneficial.

I have been running two squads of asm with two plasmas and a flamer lead by a chaplain with plasma and ToT then a librarian running divination.

trying to take everyone in I think I'll run an oversized vets squad with axes, plasmas and ss lead by the chaplain then stick the libby in a tac squad with a rhino or dp

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
adding the idea of gun slinging vets. 10 with guns akimbo, one plasma/grav and one bolt. that way you get a lot of shooting and get to assault!

I have used gunslinging vets to pretty good effect. Only due to their cost, I only ran 5 of them in a drop pod. 3 had dual grav, 2 dual plasma. Pod in, shoot, then next turn charge. 4 attacks on the charge from each vet is nothing to sneeze at.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

You can always assault on 1st turn if you go 2nd

No they removed that in 7ed. it now says you can't assault on your first turn.

actually, there is nothing saying a player cannot assault T1, unless you infiltrate or scout.

 raiden wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

You can always assault on 1st turn if you go 2nd

No they removed that in 7ed. it now says you can't assault on your first turn.

actually, there is nothing saying a player cannot assault T1, unless you infiltrate or scout.

We're talking about Scout

barebones 5 man assault squads are my all-stars. They are small enough the enemy wont bother targeting them if in cover. As the game wears on they can sneak into the enemy backline causing serious hurt, taking out vehicles and shooty things alike.

I toyed with running Vanguards for ages and proxied them in a few set ups, none of which made their points. Just far too overpriced for what they do.

I run a jump chaplain with a 5 man assault squad as my HQ most games, I'll be honest I lose my warlord around 30%-50% of the time but they always make their points back and then some.

The only special gear they get it a Powersword on the sgt (who if I have points I make a vet for the extra attack) and a flamer. The flamer is good at thinning out hordes before you assault.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

You can always assault on 1st turn if you go 2nd

No they removed that in 7ed. it now says you can't assault on your first turn.

actually, there is nothing saying a player cannot assault T1, unless you infiltrate or scout.

We're talking about Scout

I think he means if the other guy goes first, moves some jump/cavalry/beast etc units 12" forward and then on your first turn you move your guys up 12" and charge. Which could be expected if you were facing Demons or Orks or Nids perhaps.

In my experience, the key to vanguard vet sucksess is leaving them stock with a single hidden power fist. So that they chop like choppa boyz, survive like marines and have a relatively reasonable cost. But they do need target saturation to do anything, like any other non-deathstar assault-oriented unit.

Are they 100% better than asm?.. Well, it depends. If you play vs eldar or tau - nope, they're, strictly speaking, worse. Cause if you don't get to assault anything with them, you just have more points removed with the exactly same effort and if you get into combat, even stock asm will do the job. But vs guyz like orkses or swarm tyranids, they're quite kicking. This extra attack is well worth the points in this case.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

The trouble is not getting shot to bits before reaching your target.

Here's where a jump pack Chapter Master with Artificer armor and Shield Eternal comes into play - place your Vanguard squad in an inverted V formation with the CM at the front and then you can soak all those wounds the enemy shoots into your squad until the CM only has 1 wound left, at which point you can start using Lookout Sir and pass those on a 2+.

In any case, you will get in to cc by the end of turn 2 usually.

I run a 5 man squad of Vanguard Vets with a Captain in Artificer armor. Chapter masters are a bit cheezy to me. Way to many of them floating around. I use a Storm Raven to deliver my jump unit. Because the assault is coming out of a flyer it can be any ware on the field. I assist them with a Dreadnought, also held in the Raven. This unit has taken down Baneblades, Wraith Knights, Riptides, and other star units. The Raven is the only transport other then a Thunderhawk, that can hold jump troops, a very under used special rule. Here is my load out.


Captain = 185
Artificer Armour, Combi Melta, Teeth of Terra, Jump Pack, Digital weapons, Melta bombs.

Vanguard Veterans x5 = 255 pts
Storm Shield, 2x Grav Pistol, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe, Power Maul, Power sword, Power fist, Jump Packs, 4x Melta bombs.

That's a nasty tank hunting team IMO

Five Vanguard with melta bombs make for a cheap anti tank or MC unit.