Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Spacecraft are sometimes referred to as spaceships/starships. 40k takes its one step further, with "battle-barges" and space "frigates". The organisation responsible for interstellar travel is called the Imperial Navy.

Of course, this leads to some confusion. Is the Imperial equivalent of a modern-day air force under the Navy or the Guard? What is it called?

What about the Imperial equivalent of a modern-day navy, the kind that sails on oceans and seas instead of in outer space? I suppose that would be under the Guard though.

Well, I do know that the Imperial Navy governs both spaceships and regular aircraft, but actual ships? No idea.

Actual seagoing ships are completely obsolete in the 40k setting, so they don't have one.

Pretty much what has been said. Imperial watercraft are all organised purely on a local, planetary level, so I would assume that any organised seagoing fighting force would be something like 'Elysian Navy' or 'Agrippan Fleet'.

But why can't you conceive of this ever having been asked or answered before? Like, why don't you just listen?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Pretty much what has been said. Imperial watercraft are all organised purely on a local, planetary level, so I would assume that any organised seagoing fighting force would be something like 'Elysian Navy' or 'Agrippan Fleet'.

Is that mentioned in the fluff?

I'm wondering, if Guardsmen and their tanks can be deployed elsewhere, why not seamen and their boats?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pelicaniforce wrote:
But why can't you conceive of this ever having been asked or answered before? Like, why don't you just listen?

are you replying to my OP?

I believe it had a very passing mention during the Armageddon worldwide campaign.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Pretty much what has been said. Imperial watercraft are all organised purely on a local, planetary level, so I would assume that any organised seagoing fighting force would be something like 'Elysian Navy' or 'Agrippan Fleet'.

Is that mentioned in the fluff?

I'm wondering, if Guardsmen and their tanks can be deployed elsewhere, why not seamen and their boats?

You answered your own question. You don't need boats when deploymant and bombardment by space is easier, safer, more tactically efficient, faster and more accurate.

Watercraft practically only exist on a planet by planet basis. So a PDF on a world with lots of oceans will likely have some ocean going warships, but they're largely obsolete when you have Space Ships.

All atmospheric and space faring craft are part of the Imperial Navy, while ground forces are all Imperial Guard. So the IG technically controls no aircraft at all, although nearly every regiment has air assets on basically permanent attachment to their units.

 curran12 wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Pretty much what has been said. Imperial watercraft are all organised purely on a local, planetary level, so I would assume that any organised seagoing fighting force would be something like 'Elysian Navy' or 'Agrippan Fleet'.

Is that mentioned in the fluff?

I'm wondering, if Guardsmen and their tanks can be deployed elsewhere, why not seamen and their boats?

You answered your own question. You don't need boats when deploymant and bombardment by space is easier, safer, more tactically efficient, faster and more accurate.

But I don't think Guardsmen can be deployed on land in all situations. If the land is too heavily fortified, they might need to be deployed in the ocean, and then launch a land invasion, a la D-Day.


On a planet much like our present day Earth, wars can rage across continents and the oceans between them. Any army would want to control the sea as much as the land, air and space.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As long as wars are fought on planets with oceans, sea-faring craft won't become obsolete.

In a fierce war with massive casualties, the Imperium will need to draw seacraft from other planets, hence there's need for an equivalent to our modern day navy.

If that is the situation they'll simply land the orbital drop ships on the beaches. That and/or they'll bomb it from orbit.

If the enemy is foolish enough to maintain a wet navy, they'll just hit the ships with orbital or air strikes.

Maximus Bitch wrote:What about the Imperial equivalent of a modern-day navy, the kind that sails on oceans and seas instead of in outer space? I suppose that would be under the Guard though.

The Guard isn't going to drag boats from planet to planet, given just how situational they are. I mean, maybe a few guard regiments from water planets might, but it would be super rare. Especially considering that the chimera is already amphibious, and the guard has a practically infinite number of those it already brings everywhere.

I'd also assume that serious watercraft would be a planet-by-planet affair. Though it would only happen on planets that were in a constant state of civil war and had oceans, but given the imperium's stance on civil war, that seems unlikely to happen all that often, or for prolonged periods of time. I mean, imagine if the planet earth were effectively and uncontestedly ruled by a single entity. Why would that entity really need a navy?

I guess you could do something ad-hoc (like a new civil war does break out on an especially aqueous planet), where they would quick bodge together stuff for that campaign, but as a regular thing? Probably not.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

But I don't think Guardsmen can be deployed on land in all situations. If the land is too heavily fortified, they might need to be deployed in the ocean, and then launch a land invasion, a la D-Day.


On a planet much like our present day Earth, wars can rage across continents and the oceans between them. Any army would want to control the sea as much as the land, air and space.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As long as wars are fought on planets with oceans, sea-faring craft won't become obsolete.

In a fierce war with massive casualties, the Imperium will need to draw seacraft from other planets, hence there's need for an equivalent to our modern day navy.

Chimeras are amphibious, so I guess the guard could always just cross oceans in those if need be. ....admittingly I'm not sure HOW amphibious they are, though.

Actual sea-going naval units are rare, there's a book written by Henry Zou that involves a naval-based Guard regiment that has battleships and the like to help with beach landings and stuff.

As for naval assaults, generally (from what I've read), the space to surface transports just land in the water/beach/surf and drop their ramps, no need for anything else really. There's a part in a Gaunts Ghosts book where the troopers are tasked with assaulting a fortress that can be accessed via beach, naturally everything goes horribly wrong and a bunch of guys drown.

Basically, unless it's a long, protracted campaign that prohibits direct spaceborn transports from just driving to the deployment zone, you won't see naval units.

Note: I would assume the amphibious capabilities of the Chimera would be similar to modern day transports of the same variety (if only for arguments sake). So, fording rivers and shallow water would probably be something they could do with relative easy. Driving around in open water, probably not.

Didnt one of the tau novels have gaurd fighting in a riverine area using small patrol boats and the like they could have a stock of those as there not much bigger than a chimera, think vietnam era pb boats

Thought that was the Henry Zou novel I was referencing, /shrug.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If that is the situation they'll simply land the orbital drop ships on the beaches. That and/or they'll bomb it from orbit.

If the enemy is foolish enough to maintain a wet navy, they'll just hit the ships with orbital or air strikes.

Well, if the beach is heavily fortified then the orbital drop ships will get shot at before they can land.

Even if orbital bombardment is insanely powerful, the Wet Navy is to the sea what the Guard is to the land. If you need the job done on land, get the Guard. If you need to get it done on the high seas, get the Wet Navy.

As long as there are War Worlds with big oceans a Wet Navy will be required.
It's strange to think that military forces in the 41st millennium would have abandoned wet navies entirely. Just because GW doesn't cover it doesn't mean it it's non-existent.

GW hasn't introduced a Wet Navy since they already have Battlefleet Gothic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:What about the Imperial equivalent of a modern-day navy, the kind that sails on oceans and seas instead of in outer space? I suppose that would be under the Guard though.

The Guard isn't going to drag boats from planet to planet, given just how situational they are. I mean, maybe a few guard regiments from water planets might, but it would be super rare. Especially considering that the chimera is already amphibious, and the guard has a practically infinite number of those it already brings everywhere.

I'd also assume that serious watercraft would be a planet-by-planet affair. Though it would only happen on planets that were in a constant state of civil war and had oceans, but given the imperium's stance on civil war, that seems unlikely to happen all that often, or for prolonged periods of time. I mean, imagine if the planet earth were effectively and uncontestedly ruled by a single entity. Why would that entity really need a navy?

I guess you could do something ad-hoc (like a new civil war does break out on an especially aqueous planet), where they would quick bodge together stuff for that campaign, but as a regular thing? Probably not.

When the Guard needs additional firepower in a warzone, they often ferry troops and vehicles from nearby PDFs to the warzone. If it's a water warzone, wouldn't they ferry seacraft as well?

A planet needs a PDF to combat an invasion such as the dropping of Ork roks. Let's say a Rok drops onto Greenland (or it's equivalent on a distant world). The Orks load up their boats and prepare to sail across Baffin Bay to reach the Hive Cities on Baffin Island. If the PDF has a Wet Navy, they would obviously use it against the Orks.

If the beach is heavily fortified, they will use orbital strikes to CREATE landing zones, in the same way "daisycutters" were used to clear jungle DZ in 'nam.
Only from orbit. With really freakin' huge guns.

Then, they will send in the troops.

WE use a wet-navy because we DON'T have spacecraft capable of doing sub-orbital hops from other planetary areas. The imperium doesn't have this disadvantage.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Actual sea-going naval units are rare, there's a book written by Henry Zou that involves a naval-based Guard regiment that has battleships and the like to help with beach landings and stuff.

As for naval assaults, generally (from what I've read), the space to surface transports just land in the water/beach/surf and drop their ramps, no need for anything else really. There's a part in a Gaunts Ghosts book where the troopers are tasked with assaulting a fortress that can be accessed via beach, naturally everything goes horribly wrong and a bunch of guys drown.

Basically, unless it's a long, protracted campaign that prohibits direct spaceborn transports from just driving to the deployment zone, you won't see naval units.

Note: I would assume the amphibious capabilities of the Chimera would be similar to modern day transports of the same variety (if only for arguments sake). So, fording rivers and shallow water would probably be something they could do with relative easy. Driving around in open water, probably not.

On a distant world like ours there may be many sea battles as well as land battles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chromedog wrote:
If the beach is heavily fortified, they will use orbital strikes to CREATE landing zones, in the same way "daisycutters" were used to clear jungle DZ in 'nam.
Only from orbit. With really freakin' huge guns.

Then, they will send in the troops.

WE use a wet-navy because we DON'T have spacecraft capable of doing sub-orbital hops from other planetary areas. The imperium doesn't have this disadvantage.

Wet navies engage in sea battles apart from power projection. Besides, if spacecraft (akin to a super duper air force) can render coastal fortifications and wet navies obsolete, they can also render ground forces obsolete. No need for Guardsmen then.

Even then, ground and sea forces will probably have means to take out craft in air and in space.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think any force would abandon it's wet navy, they would want control of the seas as much as that of the land, air and space.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frankenberry wrote:

As for naval assaults, generally (from what I've read), the space to surface transports just land in the water/beach/surf and drop their ramps, no need for anything else really. There's a part in a Gaunts Ghosts book where the troopers are tasked with assaulting a fortress that can be accessed via beach, naturally everything goes horribly wrong and a bunch of guys drown.

Though these space transports are designed for microgravity, it would take a lot of power to support their weight and keep them off the water. Something that floats would definitely save a lot of power.

Thinking about wet navy it could be completely subsurface units armed with cruise missile equivalents dive deep enough and orbital ship can't target them and random bombing of the ocean would result in friendly casulties from tsunami's. Even using subs as c&c platforms

"Planetary defense force"

 dekinrie wrote:
Thinking about wet navy it could be completely subsurface units armed with cruise missile equivalents dive deep enough and orbital ship can't target them and random bombing of the ocean would result in friendly casulties from tsunami's. Even using subs as c&c platforms

This is my field of thought. The only real use for any sort of surface ships would be the transport of goods for local planetary purposes.

Subsurface craft (submarines and the like) could be usefull for the deployment of long range munitions, mobile command and communications relay. But actual surface fighting ships? I cant see the need for the imperial navy to carry them around and deploy them, they are more or less superseded by aircraft. I expect the powers that be will force the navy to carry certain small wet landing craft and transports (for the super rare occasion the planet doesnt have a wet navy) but its going to be an extremely rare situation that warrants surface ships over air transport

The IG may consider wet navy obsolete, but the Orks were able to prove them still useful in the Armageddon campaign when their fleet of submarines struck without warning. The orks built them on the southern continent and then launched an invasion.

But I agree that any imperial naval units would fall under the purview of a pdf.

 dekinrie wrote:
Didnt one of the tau novels have gaurd fighting in a riverine area using small patrol boats and the like they could have a stock of those as there not much bigger than a chimera, think vietnam era pb boats

Fire Caste. You also see some on a Blitz Zone war world in the Inquisitor graphic novel.

Ultimately, yeah. They'll be either PDF units or else specialist guard units. But with airmobility and orbital mobility, it'll be extremely rare that you bother with proper 'wet' blue-water naval units.

Plus if there are specialist regiments / units of this nature - you know the Imperium is going to send them to a Desert world right?

Hover / GEV vehicles would be effective on both and are as likely? Channelling my BattleTech stuff here

No need at all. flying is way more effecient

True but the Guard does currently include actual Cavalry units...............

Concerning beach invasions, in one story for Gaunt's Ghosts (A Simple Plan), they used aircraft to drop troops right into the shallow waters of the beach. For the narrative character, his unit missed the drop location and landed in very deep water and most of them drowned.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Well, if the beach is heavily fortified then the orbital drop ships will get shot at before they can land.

Even if orbital bombardment is insanely powerful, the Wet Navy is to the sea what the Guard is to the land. If you need the job done on land, get the Guard. If you need to get it done on the high seas, get the Wet Navy.

As long as there are War Worlds with big oceans a Wet Navy will be required.
It's strange to think that military forces in the 41st millennium would have abandoned wet navies entirely. Just because GW doesn't cover it doesn't mean it it's non-existent.

GW hasn't introduced a Wet Navy since they already have Battlefleet Gothic.

huh, no. If the LZ is that dangerous, they bombard it until it becomes safe. Land-based defenses are much less effective against orbital stuff than other orbital stuff - if you conquer the space around a planet, you're pretty much won the battle (well, unless you're fightning orks or nids...). Spacecraft turns wet-based vehicles and strategied obsolete. If you don't want to accept it, it's ok - but there's no point trying to convince us on the contrary.

Building ships takes time and a lot of people in big facilities - awesome targets for the enemy. It won't wait you in its fortified position while you'd build ships.

besides, from the modeling and playing point of view, ships would be goddamn costly super-heavies (a frigate would cost much more than even titans) and you'd have to create maps with enough bodies of water to field one of those. Ah, and the $$ cost of one ship... mein gott.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Well, if the beach is heavily fortified then the orbital drop ships will get shot at before they can land.

Even if orbital bombardment is insanely powerful, the Wet Navy is to the sea what the Guard is to the land. If you need the job done on land, get the Guard. If you need to get it done on the high seas, get the Wet Navy.

As long as there are War Worlds with big oceans a Wet Navy will be required.
It's strange to think that military forces in the 41st millennium would have abandoned wet navies entirely. Just because GW doesn't cover it doesn't mean it it's non-existent.

GW hasn't introduced a Wet Navy since they already have Battlefleet Gothic.

huh, no. If the LZ is that dangerous, they bombard it until it becomes safe. Land-based defenses are much less effective against orbital stuff than other orbital stuff - if you conquer the space around a planet, you're pretty much won the battle (well, unless you're fightning orks or nids...). Spacecraft turns wet-based vehicles and strategied obsolete. If you don't want to accept it, it's ok - but there's no point trying to convince us on the contrary.

Building ships takes time and a lot of people in big facilities - awesome targets for the enemy. It won't wait you in its fortified position while you'd build ships.

besides, from the modeling and playing point of view, ships would be goddamn costly super-heavies (a frigate would cost much more than even titans) and you'd have to create maps with enough bodies of water to field one of those. Ah, and the $$ cost of one ship... mein gott.

Exactly this. There is no beach that can be so well-fortified that sustained orbital bombardment and/or insertion of Space Marine, Stormtrooper and/or Elysian Drop-troops cannot render its defenses inert, which then opens the gate for a full-on Imperial Guard insertion.